Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[spoons]

The older ones will be easy to spot as they will have an old style case like the Canadian below

Any one know when AFA started the new style cases?


I think they always done the same two style cases from the start as i got a classic style case from 2003 of one of toni's Fetts I owned when they just used single grades.

Thanks Lee - I always assumed those cases with the grades at the top were stopped as they look a bit **** :lol:

Don't think many get them done these days

 

[jay4]

Tbh it's Jay who's flogging this now. If he's really bothered he should go back and read the posts - why waste time researching for him. This has been answered at least twice now IIRC.

yeah your right . i didnt fully understand in the way in which jj wrote his responses to me they were a bit inderict and confusing to me / theres was so much to read and take in at the time i did overlook some of his comments which is my bad!
end of the day we will never know for sure if arthur or jason ironed them thats the fact , we can only take jasons word he didnt and im happy with that . and tbh :mrgreen: and im sorry if my flogging offended you in some way that you felt compelled to pipe up to talk about me and not to me

 

[jedisearcher]

OK, I think what I said was correct:

JJ gets 700 Fetts and 500 Hoth Troopers from Arthur. The Fetts go to Craig Stevens.

Didn't Toni from toy Toni get the German figures? He had a hell of a lot in the early 90s

thats correct they came from Arthur Bailie he bought around 25,000 figures bubbles and cards i was in on the deal and tried to buy the lot of Arthur but lost out to Toni , i think Toni bought them for around £10K , i know at one point Arthur was trying to buy figures as he had cards but no figures to put on them , what i really wanted was a set of the cards unused for myself but that never happened, i used to see Toni place ads in model mart though out the 90s and early 2000s selling these figures, he said to me once that he had found a way t heat the bubbles and attach them to the cards in the same way they did at the factory i think he may have even gone to a factory to have them put on the cards, i have never really gone for these German cards as i felt they were not relay finished figures, somewhere have a complete brake down of all the cards , there was also around 2000 carded figures that came in at the same time as Arthur bought the cards , i bought 500 carded hoth troopers on ROTJ cards and also around 700 Boba fett figures on ROTJ cards also , i sold the 700 to Crage Steven's a collator in Romford who when he got them opened them all that was around 1988 ish i think ? anyway there you go some more history

Abit later JJ clarifies the exact numbers in this post, and this seems to be the first reference to the fact that there are major issues with the bubbles and seals:

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11326&start=285

! stop !

( thinking back everyone just now I have to coreact something I said earlier in a post )

it was not 700 boba fetts I bought from Arthur it was only 500 palitoy carded fetts and I can tell you why that was the number !!, Craig got it into his head that he needed 440 of them as that was the number he thought was in the big battle and he said he knew this as he read the comics or books or somthign like that and he wanted 440 , so I rounded it up to 500 as boba fett alwases sold and I would sell off a to a few to custmers.

so I bought 500 fetts and also 500 hoth stormtroopers on ROTJ palitoy cards as imperials alwase sold well i paid Arthur £450 , again a lot back then , Arthur shipped them to me and they were with me within a week.

( Prompt delivery and conferming that he had this stuff Toni and proving that he also dlivered to me again and shows him being reliable. )

when there turned up the cards was all palitoy both troopers and Bobas the Boba's where all fine and bubbles where all tight to the card , the troopers some was fine but some had a bubble that was put upside down so the troopers head so it fit in the footwell that making the bubble up the wrong way , so the figures were up the right way but the bubbles were upside down so the tropper fitted in the bubble as the bubbles seem to have been the wrong size ones used on these cards , this was very odd but at the time it made it much hardder to sell them on which was not good

anyway I whent strate over to Romford and dlivered the fetts to Craig and to get my money from him he looked at them was happy and paid me I think it was around £660 which meant I got 56 fetts for free and 500 tropers free , and a profit of around £210 also a good days work and it showed me that I had to close this deal but the carded figures some not bing good bubbles could be an issue to me if many more were likt that ?

Then the post from the James Simmonds about his recollection of the Toy Fair were the Fetts were found.

I've read this thread with great interest and although I haven't posted much before, I thought I would share my experiences about the topics that have been discussed over the past few days.

I've collected Star Wars memorabilia since 1980, firstly as a child and then continuously as a collector since the late 1980s up to the present day. I've attended many, many collectors fair (or swap meets as they used to be called in the late 80s), Star Wars conventions and written articles about Star Wars for many fan publications and magazines such as SFX and Model & Collectors Mart. In 1989, I co-wrote 'The UK Star Wars Memorabilia Guide' fanzine with fellow collector Stephen Nelmes and that led me to become a writer for the UK Star Wars Fan Club – which is how I first got to know Jason Joiner, who ran the club. I first met him in person at a toy fair in Leicester in 1990 and then at many other events over the next few years. During that time I purchased several items from him and traded a few pieces as well and found Jason to be a great guy who I never had any problems with at all. I even got to see one of the well-known grey limbed Hoth Stormtroopers that Jason had at a fair in Oadby back in 1991. As a result, I can confirm that these figures do exist and are not a fan made pieces. The limbs were the same coloured plastic as those on the AT-AT Driver and not painted like I've heard many collectors state over the years.

Anyway, fast forward to 1996 and I'm at one of Jason's events in Cheshunt with my old school friend Chris (who was also a collector at the time). As I'm looking through what seems like hundreds of carded mini action figures on a stall that belongs to Jason I spy a carded ROTJ Palitoy Boba Fett with a £30 price tag on it. I had to do a double take at the price because even back then that price was bargain for a hard to find mini figure, so I immediately ask to buy it. Instead of handing me the Fett that is on display, the guy behind the stall reaches down and pulls out a small box which he opens up to reveal at least half a dozen or so other carded Palitoy Fetts. He hands me one and I pay for it then I go on my way feeling very happy with my purchase. At that moment I just assumed that they were the remainder of a warehouse find of old stock or something like that. However, later on in the day, I'm back in the dealer room and happen to notice that Jason is now behind his stall. As I wander over to take another look at the carded pieces that he has for sale (I was really tempted to buy an ESB Kenner Luke Bespin that was £60), I overhear the guy running the stall saying to Jason that the Fetts were selling like hot cakes. Jason then proceeded to tell him that the Fetts were made up of unused factory bubbles and cards that had been stuck together recently. Well, you can imagine how shocked I felt and it really put a damper on what was otherwise a fantastic day out. Looking back, I should have asked for my money back at the time because I felt ripped off but there you go.

Over the years, I've often wondered how many of the other Fetts sold at this event were still in collectors hands and presumed to be the real deal. Perhaps some of them have even been graded by AFA or UKG? Although I no longer own the figure (I took it off the card a year or so after buying it and gave it to my young cousin when he became interested in Star Wars films following the 1997 re-release) the bubble seal looked fine to me and I would have been none the wiser if I hadn't have overheard Jason's conversation. So, maybe the Fetts were left over from the large amount that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread that he sold to fellow collector Craig Stevens? Why weren't they being sold as cobbled together instead of factory sealed? Perhaps Jason can shed some light on this for me?

Despite this one incident, I still think Jason is a credit to our hobby. Yes, I've heard all of the stories and rumours about him that many others have, but remember that he kept Star Wars fandom in the public eye through the UK fan club and various events at a time when most people just thought that the films and their related toys should be left behind in the 1980s. The vintage hobby would be a different place today without him. So, credit where credit is due.

As far as the Toni thing goes, I'm still on the fence about it. If there has been any post Palitoy assembly of the figures, has anyone considered the possibility that the bubbles have simply been stuck on with some kind of glue? I've purchased a few carded Palitoy figures from Toni over the years (they've always arrived parcelled up in empty wine boxes) but have never had any reason to query their authenticity. He used to advertise them for sale in Model & Collectors Mart for years so I assumed that he had purchased stacks of them decades ago when Palitoy shut up shop. Back in the late 80s, market stalls in the town I grew up in had cases of the little figures for sale as did many discount shops. Three carded mini figures for £1 anyone? That's how tri-logo Paploo, Lumat and Emperor found their way into my collection.

Sorry that this post has gone on a bit but I just wanted to share my story with everyone in light has what has transpired over the last few days. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the end.

James.

To clarify then, JJ was selling over stock Fetts and they came from Arthur. We don't know if they were post-factory sealed or not, but I've always assumed they were legit - they came from Arthur and Arthur's attempts at sealing were poor (ironed).[/b]

The bit in doubt (still) is the overheard conversation by James who says JJ knew they were modern sealed. I know JJ has denied saying this, and says he was misheard but I cba finding that post :lol:

 

[lee gray]

The older ones will be easy to spot as they will have an old style case like the Canadian below

Any one know when AFA started the new style cases?


I think they always done the same two style cases from the start as i got a classic style case from 2003 of one of toni's Fetts I owned when they just used single grades.

Thanks Lee - I always assumed those cases with the grades at the top were stopped as they look a bit **** :lol:

Don't think many get them done these days

Yeah hardly ever since vintage star wars figures cased in them, Alot of the modern figures seem to use them, i hate them too as just makes the cases bigger than needs to be.

 

[jay4]

Tbh it's Jay who's flogging this now. If he's really bothered he should go back and read the posts - why waste time researching for him. This has been answered at least twice now IIRC.

edit

 

[Richard_H]

Tbh it's Jay who's flogging this now. If he's really bothered he should go back and read the posts - why waste time researching for him. This has been answered at least twice now IIRC.

yeah your right . i didnt fully understand in the way in which jj wrote his responses to me they were a bit inderict and confusing to me / theres was so much to read and take in at the time i did overlook some of his comments which is my bad!
end of the day we will never know for sure if arthur or jason ironed them thats the fact , we can only take jasons word he didnt and im happy with that . and tbh :mrgreen: sorry if my flogging offended you in some way that you felt compelled to pipe up

Not at all. The point needed made but it started to get a bit boring and wasn't going anywhere.

 

[jedisearcher]

Dammit while I'm wading through pages of guff you all kiss and make up and agree anyway :evil:

 

[Richard_H]

I do agree with the above that we'll probably never get the truth though which is a real shame for those directly affected.

 

[jedisearcher]

I do agree with the above that we'll probably never get the truth though which is a real shame for those directly affected.

You can see how it happened though. From what I found we don't know where the Hothtroopers came from or ended up, but at the time no one really cared because they just weren't valuable and no-one knew they would become collectors items.

 

[jay4]

Tbh it's Jay who's flogging this now. If he's really bothered he should g

Not at all. The point needed made but it started to get a bit boring and wasn't going anywhere.

yeah your right :wink: i had just overlooked an odd comment or 3 from jj within hundreds and hundreds of posts within this thread so it was my bad i missed them allthough it was easy done. just a pitty the likes of yourself or others who could see i had clearly missed something didnt think to point it out to me to nip in the bud in one of my earlier posts to save me ranting on, but tbh i think just about everyones confused
one thing tho im happy that 6 of the 7 tts i have is legit now and ive finally worked out that the last remaining i was unclear on ( the upside down stormie ) either came ironed from arthur or jj and i will never know which,so thats me concluded and as happy as im gonna be with that

 

[jay4]

Dammit while I'm wading through pages of guff you all kiss and make up and agree anyway :evil:

yeah sorry man , your effort was appreciated :wink: x

 

[spoons]

yeah your right :wink: i had just overlooked an odd comment or 3 from jj within hundreds and hundreds of posts within this thread so it was my bad i missed them allthough it was easy done. just a pitty the likes of yourself or others who could see i had clearly missed something didnt think to point it out to me to nip in the bud in one of my earlier posts to save me ranting on, but tbh i think just about everyones confused
one thing tho im happy that 6 of the 7 tts i have is legit now and ive finally worked out that the last remaining i was unclear on ( the upside down stormie ) either came ironed from arthur or jj and i will never know which,so thats me concluded and as happy as im gonna be with that

If the stormie has a line of dirt on it then its from JJs loft, otherwise you may never know

If also be interested in seeing your Toni cards - the more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced most of his stuff is fake

 

[jay4]

yeah your right :wink: i had just overlooked an odd comment or 3 from jj within hundreds and hundreds of posts within this thread so it was my bad i missed them allthough it was easy done. just a pitty the likes of yourself or others who could see i had clearly missed something didnt think to point it out to me to nip in the bud in one of my earlier posts to save me ranting on, but tbh i think just about everyones confused
one thing tho im happy that 6 of the 7 tts i have is legit now and ive finally worked out that the last remaining i was unclear on ( the upside down stormie ) either came ironed from arthur or jj and i will never know which,so thats me concluded and as happy as im gonna be with that

If the stormie has a line of dirt on it then its from JJs loft, otherwise you may never know

If also be interested in seeing your Toni cards - the more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced most of his stuff is fake

no it doesnt have the loft dust line and i posted about 4 pics of it here weeks ago with iron marks all over the shop along with another couple of my 7 cards inc r2 and han bespin i posted a bossk also which i pointed out the paintloss on his feet which under a strong magnifying glass and very bright light i could see the large paintwear was on bubble which i dint see before so thot he had bad playwear which he didnt that teamed up with i then found a very faint 99p and X imprint from a pen where a lable had been reduced and then peeled which left no trace of residue so both those concluded the bossk was real to me , he was the first i ticked of as genuine of my bunch

 

[_Lee_]

RE AFA cases-thats true Lee/Spoons and this style of case is still being used and is readily available at AFA.It depends on the customer which case they want

The reason i ask this question is because repro bubbles this accurate were not being produced as early as 2002-2003.I know this because i used to make customs,and spent a lot of time on FFURG and similar sites.It would be good to see if any graded examples of Tonis MOC figures were graded using these apparent repro bubbles as quite simply,the timeline doesnt add up.I will say this this though,there was a guy who had made accurate molds for the bubbles around 2009-2010 IIRC,and they were excellent.


http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&ved=0CDwQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.starwarsforum.co.uk%2Fviewtopic.php%3Ff%3D1%26t%3D5501%26start%3D0&ei=9nTjUsyuJOyp7AbP2ICIBQ&usg=AFQjCNGu7jHxcRfPYl1FEx3RxG4kFnMc6Q

People such as Poon,Beggars Canyon etc also perfected the production of these,but im 99% sure they were not this accurate back then.If an earlier graded example is found then we are back to square one-and the debate about the bubbles could drag on.

lee

 

[spoons]

yeah your right :wink: i had just overlooked an odd comment or 3 from jj within hundreds and hundreds of posts within this thread so it was my bad i missed them allthough it was easy done. just a pitty the likes of yourself or others who could see i had clearly missed something didnt think to point it out to me to nip in the bud in one of my earlier posts to save me ranting on, but tbh i think just about everyones confused
one thing tho im happy that 6 of the 7 tts i have is legit now and ive finally worked out that the last remaining i was unclear on ( the upside down stormie ) either came ironed from arthur or jj and i will never know which,so thats me concluded and as happy as im gonna be with that

If the stormie has a line of dirt on it then its from JJs loft, otherwise you may never know

If also be interested in seeing your Toni cards - the more this thread goes on the more I'm convinced most of his stuff is fake

no it doesnt have the loft dust line and i posted about 4 pics of it here weeks ago with iron marks all over the shop along with another couple of my 7 cards inc r2 and han bespin i posted a bossk also which i pointed out the paintloss on his feet which under a strong magnifying glass and very bright light i could see the large paintwear was on bubble which i dint see before so thot he had bad playwear which he didnt that teamed up with i then found a very faint 99p and X imprint from a pen where a lable had been reduced and then peeled which left no trace of residue so both those concluded the bossk was real to me , he was the first i ticked of as genuine of my bunch

Sounds good to me Lee - I remember the photo but didnt remember it was yours. Call me a lazy arse (as I can't be bothered scrolling back through 100 pages) but what bubble was on the Bossk?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason,

Im not saying we should bury our heads in the sand but i dont think we should be banding around information that isnt proven true....

Hi Palitoy78,

I can understand that, for some people, this big amount of information isn't easy to handle and a bit confusing....but, thanks to Jason "Mr.Palitoy" work and another couple of guys here we can clearly discard a good variety of faked/Forged TT cards.

Summarized, all this work has lead to prove that:

- All unmarked/un-numbered "Single Stem" bubbles are REPRO BUBBLES.

- Toni got a stock of "03" Single Stem bubbles, but he used them to improve his sealing method. Bad seal(matted surface) with smashed "03" marking (no relief)

- All square bubbles (no stem) with rigid feeling are REPRO BUBBLES.

All we can do is just to thank all these guys who spend their time and share their info for all of us.

So please, don't give up....!!!

JC :roll:

I think this assessment is almost entirely wrong.

On JJ's list there are 5? boxes of bubbles, about half of which are in good nick and half which aren't.
So it's all the stuff that was left in the factory in coalville when they cleared it.
All Tonis bubbles are falling off now so it shows the glue/varnish coat/whatever on the bubbles doesnt age well and has lost sticking power.
All the bubbles Toni uses are genuine bubbles.
He has a lot of double stemmed bubbles.
He has a few 03 bubbles.
He has a lot of rectangular wide with square corner bubbles.
He has single stem bubbles he uses on palitoy 45b chewbacca and bossk without numbers.

Have looked at what bubbles are used on genuine palitoy cards, this is what I have found out and put on the guide.

Pre 45a, all of the bubbles are unnumbered and are mostly single stem.
A few 45a and most 45bs for certain figures are numbered single stem bubbles.
Double stem start with 45b and continue through 45c and on to 65d.
Rectangular square cornered bubbles of various sizes appear on 65d.
Trilogo bubbles start with 65a/b/c/d and continue on to trilogo.

They had some unnumbered single stem bubbles left over from when they made the move to double stem bubbles on 45b onwards.
They used almost all of the numbered single stem bubbles during production of 45a/45b cards. Some 03 bubbles left over.
They has a bunch of rectangular square cornered bubbles left from when they stopped producing 65d's.
They had a bunch of leftover double stem bubbles left over from the 65a/b/c/d run.
They probably had leftover trilogo bubbles but nobody wants to hear that.

And that would explain the breakdown of bubbles that we see Toni has used.

cheers Jason

 

[Lee77]

Jason

I'm not trying to take away the fact that you've worked tirelessly on this but there's a couple of bits that are way wrong.
I've not had a single tt moc where the bubble has started falling off. The seals on those are solid(but probably fake)
I've sent mocs to afa and had bubbles come off during shipping. If you look at all the afa tt mocs, these have been to the states and back and they're still attached perfectly.
I know you're getting at the seal not being present on the whole of the blister but to say all Toni's bubbles are falling off now is wrong. A lot of these are also 10 years old + and show no signs of falling off.
Regarding tri logo bubbles, not sure if Luke Bespin is on the list but there's loads of these, mint , on 45b's that graded highly. If the rest of his mocs are not factory sealed, I would say that the Luke bespin with tri bubbles aren't original either.
I agree with you that the statement about repro bubbles is wrong too. There's absolutely no proof.

 

[mr_palitoy]

How old are yours?

There's also cardback evidence to show the bubbles fall of tt cards over time with minimal bubble imprint and occasional bonus iron marks.

Cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

People also need to e aware that 45c cards were sent to Europe - probably Spain - where they remained in stock up to the use of Tri bubbles and were carded with PBP and possibly Tri-logo figures

A 45c or 65 back with a tri bubble is not necessary fake, just European

 

[_Lee_]

I know i bought an apparent 'case fresh' twim stemmed Fett from Toni in 2000,it took all of 3 weeks for it to get slight bubble lifting.

On a lighter note,can we start differentiating between all the Lee,s as its getting confusingIm ever so chuffed your parents named you after me,but its becoming a ballache How about a Reservoir Dogs theme? Ill be Mr White Lee