Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[finestcomics]

I updated the open letter thread with a response from Stephen Ward

 

[Grant_C]

Well spoke to Steve earlier, I think UKG are doing the best they can under the present circumstances.

 

[Grant]

Hey guys,

Just a FYI.

Spoke to a dealer today who was offered the same deal from Arthur Bailey about "20-25 years ago for £15,000".

The dealer doesn't want to come forward as he doesn't want to be caught up in a legal case etc.

He said that the deal was offered to him and he went away for a week to think about it, and when he returned to buy it they had all been sold.

He said that there were approximately 100-200 cardbacks and loose bubbles- but there was also boxes and boxes of Factory Fresh kenner and palitoy MOCs.

He said that its one persons word against another.

I know there's a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise, but it does match what's been said by other dealers of the time especially those that used to have classifieds in model mart.

Just out of curiosity, Do you think if there was just 100-200 unused card backs and bubbles AND boxes of MOC's that *maybe* lots of these so called Toni MOC's might be all legit and just *maybe* only some are suspect. I thought when JJ put up the list that all of those carded were just unused card backs and not MOC's. Maybe Iv got my wires crossed here, again just curious.

Regards

Grant.

 

[Grant_C]

He was 100% convinced that there was 100-200 cardbacks with bubbles with loose figures.

He said there was 1000's of factory fresh MOCs.

His reaction to the accusation was "********!".

Not a fan of Joiner either.

 

[finestcomics]

Well spoke to Steve earlier, I think UKG are doing the best they can under the present circumstances.

I agree. Chad returned one of my calls last Friday and we discussed the situation. I do think AFA and UKG mean well. I think Chad better understands my reasoning for getting them to respond to the requests I made, and really it can't be overstated that while they are running businesses with bottom lines, they do want to stop scammers in their tracks just as much as we do.

 

[finestcomics]

He was 100% convinced that there was 100-200 cardbacks with bubbles with loose figures.

He said there was 1000's of factory fresh MOCs.

His reaction to the accusation was "********!".

Not a fan of Joiner either.

This is not the first dissident voice I have heard since the allegations surfaced, and another reason I was asking for something in writing from Joiner.

 

[Grant_C]

Hey guys,

Just a FYI.

Spoke to a dealer today who was offered the same deal from Arthur Bailey about "20-25 years ago for £15,000".

The dealer doesn't want to come forward as he doesn't want to be caught up in a legal case etc.

He said that the deal was offered to him and he went away for a week to think about it, and when he returned to buy it they had all been sold.

He said that there were approximately 100-200 cardbacks and loose bubbles- but there was also boxes and boxes of Factory Fresh kenner and palitoy MOCs.

He said that its one persons word against another.

I know there's a lot of evidence to suggest otherwise, but it does match what's been said by other dealers of the time especially those that used to have classifieds in model mart.

Just out of curiosity, Do you think if there was just 100-200 unused card backs and bubbles AND boxes of MOC's that *maybe* lots of these so called Toni MOC's might be all legit and just *maybe* only some are suspect. I thought when JJ put up the list that all of those carded were just unused card backs and not MOC's. Maybe Iv got my wires crossed here, again just curious.

Regards

Grant.

I definatly would not be off loading any Toni MOCs at this point.

The only people who seem to make a counter claim to JJ were actually around at the time. :?

 

[Grant]

He was 100% convinced that there was 100-200 cardbacks with bubbles with loose figures.

He said there was 1000's of factory fresh MOCs.

His reaction to the accusation was "********!".

Not a fan of Joiner either.

Cool, I wonder what direction this will all take now *if* lots of these so called Toni's were actually legit MOC's and not so suspect. I know there'd still be the massive issue of the 100-200 unused card backs but if I'm picking this up correctly hasn't it been mentioned already that Toni sold of batchs of unused card backs in the past.

If this was the case then I wonder if anyone could actually prove that he cobbled together *any* MOC's at all. I know there is quite a few unused Pailtoy card backs out there in the wild, so possibly these all originated from Toni. It would make for an amazing result for everyone if all of the MOC's turned out to be legit, especially when you look at just Ironfists list of MOC's that are deemed as suspect until proven otherwise. Bloody shame for everyone involved. Again just curiosity on my behalf after reading through a few pages today.

Regards

Grant.

PS Apart from what *seems* to be iron marks on a few cards AND the 500 carded Fetts that JJ said he once owned does this possibly mean that just the Fetts could be bad ?, again I may just have my wires crossed here.

 

[Grant_C]

I heard from different people that included in that batch was over 1000 boba fetts MOCs.

When it comes to bubble variations. We are talking about a closing factory. Where get rid of product would take president over 'only use type 2 bubble' etc.

Why are seals the same as the factory seals and no one can tell the difference? Fooled everyone? Or was there a batch of cardbacks that have been sold which have tarnished the real stock?

Just keep an open mind I think.

 

[spoons]

He was 100% convinced that there was 100-200 cardbacks with bubbles with loose figures.

He said there was 1000's of factory fresh MOCs.

His reaction to the accusation was "********!".

Not a fan of Joiner either.

Cool, I wonder what direction this will all take now *if* lots of these so called Toni's were actually legit MOC's and not so suspect. I know there'd still be the massive issue of the 100-200 unused card backs but if I'm picking this up correctly hasn't it been mentioned already that Toni sold of batchs of unused card backs in the past.

If this was the case then I wonder if anyone could actually prove that he cobbled together *any* MOC's at all. I know there is quite a few unused Pailtoy card backs out there in the wild, so possibly these all originated from Toni. It would make for an amazing result for everyone if all of the MOC's turned out to be legit, especially when you look at just Ironfists list of MOC's that are deemed as suspect until proven otherwise. Bloody shame for everyone involved. Again just curiosity on my behalf after reading through a few pages today.

Regards

Grant.

PS Apart from what *seems* to be iron marks on a few cards AND the 500 carded Fetts that JJ said he once owned does this possibly mean that just the Fetts could be bad ?, again I may just have my wires crossed here.

That's the problem in a nutshell Grant. So far the only definite fakes have ironed on bubbles (Fetts and Hoth Troopers mostly), which cant be tied to Toni. The C3POs and the thin or dimpled bubbles are all suspect, but this is based purely on Toni's silence and ebay acitivity.

I'm certain that there are not 1000s of fakes, but even a couple of 100 fakes makes it harder to spot the real deal as everything is considered dodgy.

 

[Grant_C]

Agreed mate.

Edit- answered :?

 

[RKW1138]

Jason Joiner would have had to of been a seriously unlucky person to have been able to cherry pick from any of those "allegedly" carded figures and after choosing Boba Fett (highly popular character) and Hoth trooper they all end up being total ****. Yet all of Toni's are good enough to score 85-95 at AFA??

If the 1000 cards that Jason purchased were all unused cards to start with then that would be a lot more than the 100-200 unused card estimate.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[edd_jedi]

I don't think people should forget that IMO at least, the MOCs Jason showed at FF4 are 100% hard evidence that SOMEBODY had unused cardbacks and bubbles that they were trying to assemble. Yes it's possible that they are what's left of the 'only 100-200' but I think it's beyond reasonable doubt now that at least some MOCs in the wild are fakes.

 

[itfciain]

What I still don't get is the lack of response from Toni regarding all of this - if there is any untruth at all then why remain silent, why remove these figures from your website and why not threaten legal action against those who are clearly stating that you have committed large scale fraud?

 

[Grant_C]

That is the question isn't it.

:?

 

[jambobbyb]

If he was stuck with 1000s of mint Mocs no way would he allow anyone to call them out as worthless without a fight.

 

[mr_palitoy]

The one thing I find odd about the original list:-

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11326&start=1530

Is that there is page numbering in the top right hand corner. Numbers have been scored out and renumbered but the pages say 1 2 5 6

And top left there is a triangular mark that shows the pages were stapled together and folded over to be scanned. So where are pages 3 and 4?

Given testimony from dealers at the time, there is evidence to suggest that those 2 pages contained a list of carded figures.

Which would mean Toni has a mixed bag of stock. There is clear evidence to indicate his carded stock in recent years has been assembled,
presumably after he ran out of proper MOCs to sell. So more recent figures he has sold are fake, and older ones may be good.

Very hard to say what is what without those missing 2 pages.

Would be interesting to compare early Tonis with more recent Tonis for the most common affected figures.

cheers Jason

 

[plantman]

either way he will be planning where to move on his small fortune before the **** hits the fan.

 

[pizzathehutt]

What I still don't get is the lack of response from Toni regarding all of this - if there is any untruth at all then why remain silent, why remove these figures from your website and why not threaten legal action against those who are clearly stating that you have committed large scale fraud?

i agree and the fact that someones noticed he's removed his moc's from his stool in brighton rings alarm bells.

 

[jimbody1]

Lets be fair about this, if Toni came on here he would be slaughtered regardless of what he said (proof of this is in previous pages ) the people that know what's what back then are probably all well into their 60's by now and probably don't really do forums. I've heard it from people I know as have others that jj shouldn't be trusted and that the list is missing pages and that Toni did indeed buy 1000's if not 10's of 000's of moc figures. No one can state that they bought ironed on bubble mocs from Toni (its just jj's word). Personally I still think there's more chance of toni's moc's all being legit that people seem to want to believe. As to all the other bumpf I think if you want to find issues with moc figures you will find them, regardless of they be from Toni or not.

 

[Grant_C]

Lets be fair about this, if Toni came on here he would be slaughtered regardless of what he said (proof of this is in previous pages ) the people that know what's what back then are probably all well into their 60's by now and probably don't really do forums. I've heard it from people I know as have others that jj shouldn't be trusted and that the list is missing pages and that Toni did indeed buy 1000's if not 10's of 000's of moc figures. No one can state that they bought ironed on bubble mocs from Toni (its just jj's word). Personally I still think there's more chance of toni's moc's all being legit that people seem to want to believe. As to all the other bumpf I think if you want to find issues with moc figures you will find them, regardless of they be from Toni or not.

!00% agreed.

 

[finestcomics]

What I still don't get is the lack of response from Toni regarding all of this - if there is any untruth at all then why remain silent, why remove these figures from your website and why not threaten legal action against those who are clearly stating that you have committed large scale fraud?

Agreed, something is amiss. Especially since he came on here to defend himself a few years back on some rather minor off-hand comments which amounted to nothing more than a curt/abrupt demeanour people noticed when communicating with him via email.

 

[plantman]

its bollocks im afraid, he could easily take pictures of his "stock" and offer explanations to one of us in person or UKG ect.

lets not go backwards here, there needs to be an investigation no matter what.

 

[finestcomics]

its bollocks im afraid, he could easily take pictures of his "stock" and offer explanations to one of us in person or UKG ect.

lets not go backwards here, there needs to be an investigation no matter what.

I agree. These allegations are VERY serious and Toni needs to get some thick skin and respond to them in public, because the truth will eventually come out. Also, his offline conduct is in my opinion extremely unprofessional. I've sent him a handful of emails, including several payment reminders to refund me and his only response was asking for an elaboration which I construed as a stalling tactic. If you're in business for as long as he has been, doing a refund to a customer or addressing the collecting community in the face of these allegations needn't be like pulling teeth, unless you're the kind of person with no care in the world that your reputation is going to be dragged through the mud.

 

[finestcomics]

What I still don't get is the lack of response from Toni regarding all of this - if there is any untruth at all then why remain silent, why remove these figures from your website and why not threaten legal action against those who are clearly stating that you have committed large scale fraud?

i agree and the fact that someones noticed he's removed his moc's from his stool in brighton rings alarm bells.

Excuse the dumb question, but this the second time I've read this. What do you mean by his "stool?" Does he have these displayed in an antique showroom, consignment shop or does he run a storefront?

 

[itfciain]

What I still don't get is the lack of response from Toni regarding all of this - if there is any untruth at all then why remain silent, why remove these figures from your website and why not threaten legal action against those who are clearly stating that you have committed large scale fraud?

i agree and the fact that someones noticed he's removed his moc's from his stool in brighton rings alarm bells.

Excuse the dumb question, but this the second time I've read this. What do you mean by his "stool?" Does he have these displayed in an antique showroom, consignment shop or does he run a storefront?

He means 'stall' - Toni has a booth at a market down in Brighton - a number of people have purchased items directly from there in the past

 

[finestcomics]

He means 'stall' - Toni has a booth at a market down in Brighton - a number of people have purchased items directly from there in the past

Thanks! Interesting, is he still selling his stuff through that market? Do you have a name for the exact place?

 

[Grant_C]

Yeah- its just a cabinet in a market place. No way you would know that there was a MOC empire for sale.

 

[spoons]

He means 'stall' - Toni has a booth at a market down in Brighton - a number of people have purchased items directly from there in the past

Thanks! Interesting, is he still selling his stuff through that market? Do you have a name for the exact place?

Its Snooper's Paradise in the Lanes, Brighton

http://www.yelp.co.uk/biz/snoopers-paradise-brighton

Last time I was there (about 15 years ago :lol: ) he just had a cabinet or two with a few items in, and I don't believe its changed much. I bought a couple of loose last 17 and a taun taun saddle - innocent days

 

[finestcomics]

Ok, thanks for the info.