Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[plantman]

i visited snoopers paradise in brighton and noticed this stool that looked all too familiar.

sorry lol, i had to do it when i saw stool

 

[darthberizing]

Has anyone opened one up to see if it comes apart easy, or doesn't tear the cardback up,etc..?

 

[edd_jedi]

Has anyone opened one up to see if it comes apart easy, or doesn't tear the cardback up,etc..?

It's a bit of a catch 22 - I also think this is a good way of identifying them, as the bubble will probably come off with little force, and most genuine old used cardbacks you see look like an angle grinder was needed to get the bubble off the card.

But the problem is in doing so you destroy it, so all you'll get out of it is either the satisfaction that you were right about it being fake, or the despair of destroying a genuine carded figure!

 

[Lee Bullock]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-1983-Return-of-the-Jedi-Palitoy-45-back-Grey-hair-Ben-Kenobi-MOC-/181295069415

Look at the bubble on this Ben. I have NEVER seen a bubble like this on any Palitoy card, the corner are too sharp and it looks to big to be a European bubble. It doesnt resemble the Spanish trilogo bubbles with rounded corners either. What do you think? Is this a TT with a new bubble or am I jumping at shadows myself here as Ben doesnt seem to appear on the watch list? The card has the same sort of mirror sheen I have seen on TT figures before? I figured I would see what you guys think too...

 

[mr_palitoy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-1983-Return-of-the-Jedi-Palitoy-45-back-Grey-hair-Ben-Kenobi-MOC-/181295069415

Look at the bubble on this Ben. I have NEVER seen a bubble like this on any Palitoy card, the corner are too sharp and it looks to big to be a European bubble. It doesnt resemble the Spanish trilogo bubbles with rounded corners either. What do you think? Is this a TT with a new bubble or am I jumping at shadows myself here as Ben doesnt seem to appear on the watch list? The card has the same sort of mirror sheen I have seen on TT figures before? I figured I would see what you guys think too...

Welcome to collecting post tonigate where we doubt everything.

I'd have got excited about that, as it's a new entry on my palitoy matrix.

Grey haired ben has also appeared in a one off example on 45b (see picture):-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

None afa graded for 45c, so a rare MOC. 9 graded on 65d.

So, do I stick it on the matrix? May as well throw the matrix away if I stop updating it now...

cheers Jason

 

[PGowdy]

Has anyone opened one up to see if it comes apart easy, or doesn't tear the cardback up,etc..?

It's a bit of a catch 22 - I also think this is a good way of identifying them, as the bubble will probably come off with little force, and most genuine old used cardbacks you see look like an angle grinder was needed to get the bubble off the card.

But the problem is in doing so you destroy it, so all you'll get out of it is either the satisfaction that you were right about it being fake, or the despair of destroying a genuine carded figure!

This would also prove nothing. A genuine vintage bubble could also come away from its card with ease after 30+ years. And conversely a newly applied repro bubble could tear the card to pieces when removed depending on how it was applied.

 

[_Lee_]

Has anyone opened one up to see if it comes apart easy, or doesn't tear the cardback up,etc..?

It's a bit of a catch 22 - I also think this is a good way of identifying them, as the bubble will probably come off with little force, and most genuine old used cardbacks you see look like an angle grinder was needed to get the bubble off the card.

But the problem is in doing so you destroy it, so all you'll get out of it is either the satisfaction that you were right about it being fake, or the despair of destroying a genuine carded figure!

This would also prove nothing. A genuine vintage bubble could also come away from its card with ease after 30+ years. And conversely a newly applied repro bubble could tear the card to pieces when removed depending on how it was applied.

Im pretty sure a forensic/scientic test could determine many facets of this problem.The glue could be identified for age if im not mistaken? The figure on the card being dusted for TT D.N.A.,the process of how the cards were sealed.Theoretically,this is what is needed here but can you ever see such tests being carried out??? AFA loosies being identified as previously slabbed and now on a card.???thats why i think nothing will ever happen.Unless tests such as these are carried out,nothing will ever be proven therefore the crime will remain unpunished.I am not taking the piss,i am being serious.There is no proof.That list JJ produced is good to most of us,but it would be laughed out of court in the outside world.

Putting it bluntly,this is one of the most perfectly executed scams in recent history and without a chance comment made on this forum ,it would still be a dirty little secret.We can all comment,advise,prove what we want,but its different in a courtroom.There is zero proof and as original parts were used,i think any legal stance is failed from the get go.

 

[spoons]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-1983-Return-of-the-Jedi-Palitoy-45-back-Grey-hair-Ben-Kenobi-MOC-/181295069415

Look at the bubble on this Ben. I have NEVER seen a bubble like this on any Palitoy card, the corner are too sharp and it looks to big to be a European bubble. It doesnt resemble the Spanish trilogo bubbles with rounded corners either. What do you think? Is this a TT with a new bubble or am I jumping at shadows myself here as Ben doesnt seem to appear on the watch list? The card has the same sort of mirror sheen I have seen on TT figures before? I figured I would see what you guys think too...

No bubble imprint on the reverse, which you'd expect with a tri - I'd be cautious

 

[Starzone]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-1983-Return-of-the-Jedi-Palitoy-45-back-Grey-hair-Ben-Kenobi-MOC-/181295069415

Look at the bubble on this Ben. I have NEVER seen a bubble like this on any Palitoy card, the corner are too sharp and it looks to big to be a European bubble. It doesnt resemble the Spanish trilogo bubbles with rounded corners either. What do you think? Is this a TT with a new bubble or am I jumping at shadows myself here as Ben doesnt seem to appear on the watch list? The card has the same sort of mirror sheen I have seen on TT figures before? I figured I would see what you guys think too...

No bubble imprint on the reverse, which you'd expect with a tri - I'd be cautious

I've noticed a few with strange bubbles lately....and also the bubbles are positioned as far as possible to the left and bottom side....I wonder if that is so the old iron doesn't have to come into contact with those sides of the backing card

 

[jambobbyb]

Gentlemen, I have just spent the evening with a member of the police, he is a local to me medal collector, I discussed what's been going off here with him and he suggests anyone who has been ripped off contacts action fraud immediately but says try to make a large amount of your complaints at the same time so a pattern can be instantly formed. He is quite optimistic of this being something they would be "very" interested in. You can do it online and here is the Linky
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk

 

[spoons]

I think action fraud sounds like the way to go

RKW just posted this in the information thread. The Kenner comparison is pretty damning but without the nos of carded figures bought by Toni still inconclusive

The Han Hoth comparison sums it up - the Palitoy 45b is one of the rarest cards out there so to see one graded is interesting, but as it is so rare you wouldn't expect to see similar numbers to the GM cards.

AFA Items Sold by ToyToni.com AFA 90-95----AFA95----AFA90----AFA85----Total Graded----Total Unused Cards
Palitoy ESB 45A bossk----------------------------------01--------12--------14----------29---------------1000
Palitoy ESB 45B chewbacca-----------------------------00--------01--------01----------02----------------132
Palitoy ROTJ 45C luke skywalker (brown hair)----------00--------03--------01---------04-----------------0
Clipper ESB 45 walrusman-------------------------------00--------04--------04---------12------------------56
Clipper ESB 45 white bespin guard-----------------------00--------05--------03---------09-----------------138
Clipper ESB 45 hammerhead-----------------------------00--------05--------05---------10------------------69
General Mills ESB 45 han solo hoth-----------------------01--------08--------12---------22-----------------563
General Mills ESB 45 han solo bespin---------------------02--------09--------08---------19-----------------162
General Mills ESB 45 han solo----------------------------01--------12--------10---------25-----------------194
General Mills ESB 45 storm trooper-----------------------00--------03--------12---------20-----------------526
General Mills ESB 45 c3po-------------------------------00--------03--------05---------08-----------------357
Palitoy ROTJ 65A c3po----------------------------------00--------07--------07---------16----------------1234
Palitoy ROTJ 65A leia boushh----------------------------00--------05--------07---------17------------------30
Kenner ROTJ 77A bossk---------------------------------00--------02--------14---------22-------------------0


Not On Unused Carded List----------------------AFA95----AFA90----AFA85----Total Graded
Palitoy ESB 45 walrusman-------------------------------00--------00--------01---------01
Palitoy ESB 45 white bespin guard-----------------------00--------00--------01---------01
Palitoy ESB 45 hammerhead-----------------------------00--------00--------00---------00
Palitoy ESB 45 han solo hoth----------------------------00--------00--------01---------01
Palitoy ESB 45 han solo bespin--------------------------00--------00--------01---------02
Palitoy ESB 45 han solo---------------------------------00--------00--------00---------02
Palitoy ESB 45 storm trooper----------------------------00--------00--------07---------21


Kenner AFA scores----------------------------------AFA95----AFA90----AFA85----Total Graded
Kenner ESB 45 bossk------------------------------------00--------00-------03---------03
Kenner ESB 45 chewbacca-------------------------------00--------00-------02---------03
Kenner ROTJ 48 luke skywalker (brown hair)-----------00-------00--------02--------12
Kenner ESB 45 walrusman--------------------------------00-------00--------00--------04
Kenner ESB 45 white bespin guard------------------------00-------00--------00--------01
Kenner ESB 45 hammerhead------------------------------00-------00--------00--------02
Kenner ESB 45 han solo hoth-----------------------------00-------00--------03--------04
Kenner ESB 45 han solo bespin---------------------------00-------00--------03--------05
Kenner ESB 45 han solo----------------------------------00-------00--------02--------10
Kenner ESB 45 storm trooper-----------------------------00-------00--------01--------02
Kenner ROTJ 48 c3po------------------------------------00-------00--------01--------04
Kenner ROTJ 65 c3po------------------------------------00-------00--------20--------50
Kenner ROTJ 65 leia boushh------------------------------00-------00--------00--------00
Kenner ROTJ 77 bossk-----------------------------------00-------02--------14--------22

I've picked all the AFA graded items sold from ToyToni website that scored higher than 85 and looked up AFA for how many exist.
All the AFA grades of 95 have all been from ToyToni sold stock and I would imagine that the majority of 90's are also from ToyToni as he had more than one for sale.

The interesting thing that I'm trying to show is that if you compare the scores to the equivalent Kenner cards hardly anything scores higher than 85.
The irony is that the only items scoring 90 (ROTJ 77 Bossk) came from ToyToni. Now you might think that it's just down to more Palitoy cards surviving but if
you pick out Palitoy cards that are not on the unused card list the numbers come out like the Kenner examples. Shouldn't there be just as many good Palitoy Hoth Han's as
German cards?

 

[Grant_C]

Gentlemen, I have just spent the evening with a member of the police, he is a local to me medal collector, I discussed what's been going off here with him and he suggests anyone who has been ripped off contacts action fraud immediately but says try to make a large amount of your complaints at the same time so a pattern can be instantly formed. He is quite optimistic of this being something they would be "very" interested in. You can do it online and here is the Linky
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk

I agree, but would like to hear others.

 

[plantman]

Gentlemen, I have just spent the evening with a member of the police, he is a local to me medal collector, I discussed what's been going off here with him and he suggests anyone who has been ripped off contacts action fraud immediately but says try to make a large amount of your complaints at the same time so a pattern can be instantly formed. He is quite optimistic of this being something they would be "very" interested in. You can do it online and here is the Linky
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk

I agree, but would like to hear others.

This is the proper way forward, and the only way to get a full investigation, we can bicker on for another 1000 pages and eventually the storm will calm and he will get away with it.

A collaborative effort to complain should be organised and find out if this is a massive money making scam.

 

[Bramistuta25]

Gentlemen, I have just spent the evening with a member of the police, he is a local to me medal collector, I discussed what's been going off here with him and he suggests anyone who has been ripped off contacts action fraud immediately but says try to make a large amount of your complaints at the same time so a pattern can be instantly formed. He is quite optimistic of this being something they would be "very" interested in. You can do it online and here is the Linky
http://www.actionfraud.police.uk

I agree, but would like to hear others.

I agree

 

[Grant_C]

That's 4.

 

[finestcomics]

Guys, I've been mulling this whole situation over and I think I might have a suggestion. It's a long shot but there might be a method of determining tampering in situations where a "modern" heat seal was used.

I don't want to get too technical on this situation because quite frankly, there are a number of things that are required for this type of examination to happen. However I think it's important to explain a little bit of background on this situation.

For several years now, and mainly due to the controversy dry mount pressing techniques have caused in the vintage comic market, the subject on detecting pressing has been of significant interest to me. Several years ago, I stumbled on some research and a technique that may allow detection to occur using Raman Spectroscopy. In a nutshell, this technique was not something that could be reasonably pursued due to cost and scale (one of it's applications is to act as a "canary" in a mine so to speak, to determine environmental contaminant exposure hazard to miners).

In recent years, both the cost and scale (a tabletop version now exists) have come down significantly. And while a lot of collectors thought it was a pipe dream when I made the suggestion on the CGC boards, I recently discovered PCGS (coin graders) added this device as a method to identify surface contaminants on coins. It is my belief that this method will be used more widely by graders in coming years to detect manipulation and tampering.

If you followed through all this long enough, here is how I see this being useful to detect if a modern seal was used on Toni MOC's. It would require access to a spectroscope, a tech to interpret readings/results, and samples of original Palitoy MOC's, breached cardbacks, and a Toni MOC.

Mattias' C3P0's would be as close to the best sampling for this type of approach, as he also has the "unused" cardback that originates from the alleged stash of Toni cardbacks.

What I'm sure we will find on modern seals is residue of the release coatings used on the release paper. Wax paper is one example of release paper, but it is of low grade. Release paper is used as a buffer when heat sealing blisters on the cardbacks. There would be no reason for this chemical residue to exist on factory seals. Seeing Gonk's Palitoy Snowie, I'm fairly certain a release sheet of some kind was used based on the damage to the punch tab.

Again, I know this is a longshot, but does anyone have access to a spectroscope? The other idea I had was to contact PCGS and ask if they would be willing to run some tests on MOC's for us, but it still would require somebody submitting some samples for study.

 

[jambobbyb]

That's 4.

I think at this point in time its the only way forward. there is something very wrong here and a lot of money is and has been involved. I am sure the Police will be interested as these have been "unreprisented" By Toni.

 

[panastur]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-1983-Return-of-the-Jedi-Palitoy-45-back-Grey-hair-Ben-Kenobi-MOC-/181295069415

Look at the bubble on this Ben. I have NEVER seen a bubble like this on any Palitoy card, the corner are too sharp and it looks to big to be a European bubble. It doesnt resemble the Spanish trilogo bubbles with rounded corners either. What do you think? Is this a TT with a new bubble or am I jumping at shadows myself here as Ben doesnt seem to appear on the watch list? The card has the same sort of mirror sheen I have seen on TT figures before? I figured I would see what you guys think too...

I always said these square bubbles are way too thick...!!! Probably twice thicker than a regular bubble. Just take one in hand and you'll see how strong is this bubble, almost impossible to push down with your thumb.

I sincerely believed that these bubble were made to avoid loss of shape during the "hand madel" seal process....

JC :roll:

 

[jedisearcher]

That's 4.

Count me in.

Happy to help with drafting whatever documents we need.

Finest, I don't have access to the kit you need but more than happy to volunteer any TT mocs you need, I have 6 I think.

 

[Richard_H]

That's 4.

Moi aussi

 

[Dan]

Guys, I've been mulling this whole situation over and I think I might have a suggestion. It's a long shot but there might be a method of determining tampering in situations where a "modern" heat seal was used.

I don't want to get too technical on this situation because quite frankly, there are a number of things that are required for this type of examination to happen. However I think it's important to explain a little bit of background on this situation.

For several years now, and mainly due to the controversy dry mount pressing techniques have caused in the vintage comic market, the subject on detecting pressing has been of significant interest to me. Several years ago, I stumbled on some research and a technique that may allow detection to occur using Raman Spectroscopy. In a nutshell, this technique was not something that could be reasonably pursued due to cost and scale (one of it's applications is to act as a "canary" in a mine so to speak, to determine environmental contaminant exposure hazard to miners).

In recent years, both the cost and scale (a tabletop version now exists) have come down significantly. And while a lot of collectors thought it was a pipe dream when I made the suggestion on the CGC boards, I recently discovered PCGS (coin graders) added this device as a method to identify surface contaminants on coins. It is my belief that this method will be used more widely by graders in coming years to detect manipulation and tampering.

If you followed through all this long enough, here is how I see this being useful to detect if a modern seal was used on Toni MOC's. It would require access to a spectroscope, a tech to interpret readings/results, and samples of original Palitoy MOC's, breached cardbacks, and a Toni MOC.

Mattias' C3P0's would be as close to the best sampling for this type of approach, as he also has the "unused" cardback that originates from the alleged stash of Toni cardbacks.

What I'm sure we will find on modern seals is residue of the release coatings used on the release paper. Wax paper is one example of release paper, but it is of low grade. Release paper is used as a buffer when heat sealing blisters on the cardbacks. There would be no reason for this chemical residue to exist on factory seals. Seeing Gonk's Palitoy Snowie, I'm fairly certain a release sheet of some kind was used based on the damage to the punch tab.

Again, I know this is a longshot, but does anyone have access to a spectroscope? The other idea I had was to contact PCGS and ask if they would be willing to run some tests on MOC's for us, but it still would require somebody submitting some samples for study.

I have access to a Keyence Digital Microscope at work if this would be of any good?

I could test it on the Jawa card I posted about yesterday, but would have to wait til Monday for our QC department to let me use it.

 

[finestcomics]

Guys, I've been mulling this whole situation over and I think I might have a suggestion. It's a long shot but there might be a method of determining tampering in situations where a "modern" heat seal was used.

I don't want to get too technical on this situation because quite frankly, there are a number of things that are required for this type of examination to happen. However I think it's important to explain a little bit of background on this situation.

For several years now, and mainly due to the controversy dry mount pressing techniques have caused in the vintage comic market, the subject on detecting pressing has been of significant interest to me. Several years ago, I stumbled on some research and a technique that may allow detection to occur using Raman Spectroscopy. In a nutshell, this technique was not something that could be reasonably pursued due to cost and scale (one of it's applications is to act as a "canary" in a mine so to speak, to determine environmental contaminant exposure hazard to miners).

In recent years, both the cost and scale (a tabletop version now exists) have come down significantly. And while a lot of collectors thought it was a pipe dream when I made the suggestion on the CGC boards, I recently discovered PCGS (coin graders) added this device as a method to identify surface contaminants on coins. It is my belief that this method will be used more widely by graders in coming years to detect manipulation and tampering.

If you followed through all this long enough, here is how I see this being useful to detect if a modern seal was used on Toni MOC's. It would require access to a spectroscope, a tech to interpret readings/results, and samples of original Palitoy MOC's, breached cardbacks, and a Toni MOC.

Mattias' C3P0's would be as close to the best sampling for this type of approach, as he also has the "unused" cardback that originates from the alleged stash of Toni cardbacks.

What I'm sure we will find on modern seals is residue of the release coatings used on the release paper. Wax paper is one example of release paper, but it is of low grade. Release paper is used as a buffer when heat sealing blisters on the cardbacks. There would be no reason for this chemical residue to exist on factory seals. Seeing Gonk's Palitoy Snowie, I'm fairly certain a release sheet of some kind was used based on the damage to the punch tab.

Again, I know this is a longshot, but does anyone have access to a spectroscope? The other idea I had was to contact PCGS and ask if they would be willing to run some tests on MOC's for us, but it still would require somebody submitting some samples for study.

I have access to a Keyence Digital Microscope at work if this would be of any good?

I could test it on the Jawa card I posted about yesterday, but would have to wait til Monday for our QC department to let me use it.

Thanks for the reply. I'm not sure if this would work, as I believe the advantage the spectroscope would provide in this situation is to identify foreign substances. If the hunch of the community thus far is correct, and that implies either a glue or heat seal was used to mimic a factory seal, the spectroscope should be able to identify the presence of adhesive and/or silica residue which makes up the release properties of release paper. Such an examination would of course also need to be compared to an "original owner" MOC which we know 100% was factory sealed. Having access to the "unused" cardback would further allow the interpretation of the results from a Toni MOC to conclusively suggest neither foreign substance was on the cardbacks, and I am 100% certain these substances would not be found on an original Palitoy factory MOC. Having those three samples types, and possibly more than one grouping to confirm data gathered from each sample, IMHO could finally put this debate to rest.

 

[finestcomics]

That's 4.

Count me in.

Happy to help with drafting whatever documents we need.

Finest, I don't have access to the kit you need but more than happy to volunteer any TT mocs you need, I have 6 I think.

Thanks for the reply. I have contacted PCGS' President to see if there is a possibility to submit some samples for examination. I'll keep you posted if anything comes from it. Which MOC's do you have, and perhaps we can start a running list of volunteer submissions. We need the following, preferably of the same character and XX-Back-Letter type as evidenced in Mattia's C-3P0 earlier posts:

i) Original Palitoy factory sealed MOC
ii) Toni Palitoy MOC
iii) Toni unused cardback

If we can round-up a second or even a third batch, this would be extremely useful to the study. I know there is a chance it might run a little more money to run several test on different batches, but IMHO the confirmation which conclusively points to an "altered" or "modern" seal would be worth any additional time/money that is required.

 

[RKW1138]

I wonder if Mr.Emchowicz would be open to having a representative of either UKG/AFA visit him to check his stock and sales records? The results in terms of numbers of carded figures could be kept confidential.

 

[spoons]

That's 4.

Count me in.

Happy to help with drafting whatever documents we need.

Finest, I don't have access to the kit you need but more than happy to volunteer any TT mocs you need, I have 6 I think.

Thanks for the reply. I have contacted PCGS' President to see if there is a possibility to submit some samples for examination. I'll keep you posted if anything comes from it. Which MOC's do you have, and perhaps we can start a running list of volunteer submissions. We need the following, preferably of the same character and XX-Back-Letter type as evidenced in Mattia's C-3P0 earlier posts:

i) Original Palitoy factory sealed MOC
ii) Toni Palitoy MOC
iii) Toni unused cardback

If we can round-up a second or even a third batch, this would be extremely useful to the study. I know there is a chance it might run a little more money to run several test on different batches, but IMHO the confirmation which conclusively points to an "altered" or "modern" seal would be worth any additional time/money that is required.

Is PCGS in the UK?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Hi Andy I dont think so. I think they are US based but I could be wrong

 

[finestcomics]

They are in the US (California). As far as I can tell, they are the only graders at this time using this method to detect "alterations" and tampering.

 

[spoons]

In that case it's probably best that us collectors submit some specimens

Legit Palitoys going airmail wouldn't fill me with confidence

 

[_Darren_]

I'm in as well.

What do I have to do again??(leaves balaclava and baseball bat in boot of car!!)

Darren

 

[plantman]

give toni an ultimatum, we collaboratively (there must be 100's of people with massive money in this) report him to the police (and inland revenue just in case) or he comes out and defends himself.

but to be honest ive lost all patience and think we should just get a report in, the best and most productive way possible.