Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[edd_jedi]

I don't think anybody is trying to discredit you JJ and for me personally at least I've never dealt with you before so have no opinion either way on the alleged stories. But I'm sure you can appreciate that all of this has been a big revelation so people were bound to be sceptical at first and even now will still proceed with caution. That would have happened whether it was you, TT himself or even Steve Sansweet made the original allegation. Don't be offended by it, we all appreciate your input.

 

[x-pack]

Has someone from UK already laid a criminal complaint against TT to initiate a penal procedure ?!

I can only speak for Germany, but you can bring a charge against a suspect at no cost. The prosecution is forced to launch investigations. This would surely put some pressure on TT and may result in new facts.

No. Not yet

 

[finestcomics]

If you have been financially impacted by this Toytoni scandal, please chime-in with your details in this thread.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Respost from rebelscum:-

Originally Posted by mr_palitoy View Post
I really wanted to through the book at this MOC but I couldn't. The bubble seal looks as sweet as it gets.
There is a fair amount of bubble scrapes inside from the figure bouncing around inside the large Tri Logo bubble
over the years and I can see some white wear on the back of the figure (is this common?).

Compared against 2 used cardbacks I can see that the used cardbacks both used double stem bubbles, one of which has
the circle pattern at the top and pressing on the back that was done by the factory machine.

There are the same print flaws on the AFA 85 MOC and the used cardback done by the factory machine
so nothing to go on there.

This one passes for now.

And the AFA report has 10 graded. 3 are 85, 4 are 80, the other 3 I don't know, so it's not exactly raining minty walrusmen for this figure.

But... between 2007 and 2013 his ebay account has sold:-

17 x Palitoy ROTJ Walrusman 45bk (+ 1 Clipper ES

Which is worrying...

cheers Jason

Have added Walrus Man to the matrix on my guide. There's no smoke without fire.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Following on from adding 45 back Walrusman with a tri logo bubble to the toni matrix, I've been looking at 65 back Han Solo Hoth, also with Tri Logo bubble.

This has also been for sale on toytoni.com and at least 2 have been sold through the marsking ebay account.

AFA have 25 graded, 19 of which are 85s. There are also 2 graded with wrong weapons for a total of 27.

So looking like another addition to the matrix.

cheers Jason

 

[Lee Bullock]

Jason,

We do have a problem here - we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Toni did have MANY legitimate carded figures in his inventory in multiples. I for one remember lots of tri-bubble palitoy Walrus man and Han Hoths long before Toni had his ads in Model Mart and I saw LOTS of them. We are in danger of jumping at shadows here and tarring perfectly legitimate MOC with the TT stigma. Toni had multiple Meccano Jawas - does that make them fake seals? No of course not - has there were thousands of them out there - I remember Golden Games having more Ben's and Jawas than he knew what to do with.

The problem is that Toni mixed legitimate in with fake - that what makes this so hard!

 

[finestcomics]

I'm not sure if anyone else noticed but he's started to migrate his catalog entirely to his zoomertoys site. If you hover over the links on his toytoni.com site, you'll see it in the bottom of your browser.

I noticed this because I was able to access a link from an old message that was pointing to his toytoni site. But since I posted it in the financial tally thread, I noticed it was gone.

The site must have been getting hammered with visitor traffic and he probably started moving it over to his other site to offload some of the bandwidth usage.

GOOD!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason,

We do have a problem here - we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Toni did have MANY legitimate carded figures in his inventory in multiples. I for one remember lots of tri-bubble palitoy Walrus man and Han Hoths long before Toni had his ads in Model Mart and I saw LOTS of them. We are in danger of jumping at shadows here and tarring perfectly legitimate MOC with the TT stigma. Toni had multiple Meccano Jawas - does that make them fake seals? No of course not - has there were thousands of them out there - I remember Golden Games having more Ben's and Jawas than he knew what to do with.

The problem is that Toni mixed legitimate in with fake - that what makes this so hard!

Yep, its a real mess, just trying to make sense of it. Kinda hard without that list of legit MOCs.

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Jason,

We do have a problem here - we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Toni did have MANY legitimate carded figures in his inventory in multiples. I for one remember lots of tri-bubble palitoy Walrus man and Han Hoths long before Toni had his ads in Model Mart and I saw LOTS of them. We are in danger of jumping at shadows here and tarring perfectly legitimate MOC with the TT stigma. Toni had multiple Meccano Jawas - does that make them fake seals? No of course not - has there were thousands of them out there - I remember Golden Games having more Ben's and Jawas than he knew what to do with.

The problem is that Toni mixed legitimate in with fake - that what makes this so hard!

Totally agree Lee - as I've said elsewhere tri bubbles on 45 backs are not necessarily fake.

 

[Lee Bullock]

I would go as far as to say that tri-bubbled palitoy single logo cards are 95% in the clear - In fact I had a shop worn Han Hoth about 10 years ago with a tri-bubble that combined with the LOADS of Walrus Man etc I saw 20 + years ago I find highly unlikely that they are doctored. I remember Toni having loads of £1.49 last 15 MOC too, all legit.

 

[spoons]

Toni is not making these - I sold this a while back

 

[RKW1138]

I compliled a list of every AFA graded item 90-95 that ToyToni sold or still had for sale on his website during August 2007. Would be interesting to know how many of each figure AFA has now recorded with a 90-95 grade. Also would be interesting to know how many of the german cards have the english text since them seem incredibly rare out in the wild.

02/08/2007

FOR SALE
AFA 95 palitoy german issue han solo
AFA 90 palitoy german issue esb han hoth
AFA 90 clipper esb white bespin guard 

SOLD
AFA 95 palitoy esb bossk  
AFA 90 paitoy rotj luke skywalker brown hair
AFA 90 palitoy esb chewbacca
AFA 90 esb han solo
AFA 90 rotj leia boushh
AFA 90 esb han bespin
AFA 90 esb c3po 
AFA 90 esb walrusman
AFA 90 kenner rotj bossk clear bubble

AFA 90 clipper esb hammerhead
   
AFA 95 palitoy german issue esb  han hoth
AFA 95 palitoy german issue esb  han bespin
AFA 90 palitoy german issue esb  han hoth
AFA 90 palitoy german issue esb  han bespin
AFA 90 palitoy german issue esb han solo
AFA 90 palitoy german issue esb storm trooper 

AFA 90 star wars meccanno jawa

 

[lee gray]

I remember once Toni said to me that the reason he put the prices of his Fetts up was because everyone was buying them from him cheap and sending them in to get graded and recieving high grades and making lots of money out of it when if he wanted to he could do that himself but he didnt really like sending figures abroad to be graded, i think otherwise he would have had a ton more graded.

 

[Starzone]

I always wondered why Toni never sent large batches of figures over to AFA to get graded, it just didn't make business sense......I guess this was because

A/ He didn't have large quantities sealed to send over at anyone time
B/ if he submitted 100s and this news eventually came out then surely a large company like AFA would come after him legally.

 

[jedisearcher]

I always wondered why Toni never sent large batches of figures over to AFA to get graded, it just didn't make business sense......I guess this was because

A/ He didn't have large quantities sealed to send over at anyone time
B/ if he submitted 100s and this news eventually came out then surely a large company like AFA would come after him legally.

I thought the same - he might've been worried that sending boxes of super mint figures might have generated suspicion at AFA.

 

[_Lee_]

Jason,

We do have a problem here - we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water here. Toni did have MANY legitimate carded figures in his inventory in multiples. I for one remember lots of tri-bubble palitoy Walrus man and Han Hoths long before Toni had his ads in Model Mart and I saw LOTS of them. We are in danger of jumping at shadows here and tarring perfectly legitimate MOC with the TT stigma. Toni had multiple Meccano Jawas - does that make them fake seals? No of course not - has there were thousands of them out there - I remember Golden Games having more Ben's and Jawas than he knew what to do with.

The problem is that Toni mixed legitimate in with fake - that what makes this so hard!

Lee,excellent post buddy.Although we are all pretty sure that a lot of TT,s have been made to order there are a LOT of legitimate pieces that originated from him.I know as i have bought some in the past.However bad the situation is,throwing wrong information out there is wrong and will confuse and worry a lot of collectors for no reason.

Jason,although i applaud your work on this i dont beleive you should have made that guide/matrix public as you have done,as quite frankly it is impossible to tell what has been made and what is out there.We dont know which exact cardback types they were.For all we know he could well only have used 500 of those cards and bubbles.Toni is an old school dealer/collector and would have bought hundreds,maybe even a thousand of carded figures when Star Wars started to wane.Its not a dig at you,and i know you have been affected aswell but you are trying to acheive the impossible.

 

[spoons]

cant say for sure whether this one is fake - but that's a first issue Han Hoth on a late issue card based on his hexagonal belt buckle

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141159932649&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

but this one looks like a genuine Walrusman on a 45 back with a tri bubble

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Palitoy-Walrusman-MOC-Carded-ROTJ-figure-esb-/141159938059?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item20ddc9b80b

and a genuine tri bubble Luke Bespin on a 45 back with price sticker

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141159935490&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

The situation is a mess - but there are lots of genuine items out there

 

[edd_jedi]

Love this line in his eBay description:

"These are ultra collectable especially as it will shoot in value once the new films kick in and always nice to have a Empire Strikes Back card for a ESB figure!"

What he means is:

"These will plummet in value as soon as you idiots read any of the threads on the various forums!"

 

[mr_palitoy]

Hi guys, appreciate your input on Walrusman/Han Hoth and tri logo bubbles.

It does sound like these pre date toni gate and the seal I have on my walrus man looks ok and different to the Toni ones.
I appreciate Toni has been selling these, but he is a toy dealer and if large quantities have been kicking about then it makes
sense that he has been selling them.

I can't real tar one and not the other, so am taking Walrus Man off the list.

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Love this line in his eBay description:

"These are ultra collectable especially as it will shoot in value once the new films kick in and always nice to have a Empire Strikes Back card for a ESB figure!"

What he means is:

"These will plummet in value as soon as you idiots read any of the threads on the various forums!"

He also links to Jason's site - surely that will put off customers

I'm quite tempted by his Luke Bespin, is that a good price?

Hi guys, appreciate your input on Walrusman/Han Hoth and tri logo bubbles.

It does sound like these pre date toni gate and the seal I have on my walrus man looks ok and different to the Toni ones.
I appreciate Toni has been selling these, but he is a toy dealer and if large quantities have been kicking about then it makes
sense that he has been selling them.

I can't real tar one and not the other, so am taking Walrus Man off the list.

cheers Jason

Once again your efforts are genuinely appreciated Jason