Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[kraftdermacht]

I have had a conversation with a family friend who is a high court judge.

His advice is that the police may not take this seriously as it is fraud based on action figures.

I filed charges agains unknown because of a disapeared in the mail out of the package German Yps
magazine with Hoth trooper. For the police officer it was the first time take care of something like this ;-)
I have not heard of this since a year or so. If anybody wants the full story PM

Wolfgang

 

[edd_jedi]

The only thing that will incriminate Toni (apart from an admission, which seems unlikely) is if anybody can match a loose figure he bought to a carded one he sold. Then we can discount pretty much every one he's ever sold, even if a pattern isn't found. As many have said, personally I don't think these will ever be easy to spot - there are plenty of card back, figure and seal issues on legit MOCs.

 

[kraftdermacht]

Jason, great job with the list so far. To finalize it you should (*) the numbers with the 50/50 split and add a short note at the end that whese probably were counted together on JJs list and that the spilt is a guess. Also that Clipper cards were not explicitly mentioned but could be derived from TTs offering where some figures only were offered on Clipper but not on GM (no real proof so far).

Will come up with more analysis on TT bubbles in the next days when I find the time.
(My daughter gets a good microscope for Christmas ;-) )

Wolfgang

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason, great job with the list so far. To finalize it you should (*) the numbers with the 50/50 split and add a short note at the end that whese probably were counted together on JJs list and that the spilt is a guess. Also that Clipper cards were not explicitly mentioned but could be derived from TTs offering where some figures only were offered on Clipper but not on GM (no real proof so far).

Will come up with more analysis on TT bubbles in the next days when I find the time.
(My daughter gets a good microscope for Christmas ;-) )

Wolfgang

Ok, will edit my post in the conclusions thread with that.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Lot of talk of prosecuting Toni.

Before we get to the point where the community takes a decision on that, we need to continue to summarise our
findings in the condensed thread that Joe O started.

This could then be used by the authorities.

But before that, it should be made aware to both UKG and AFA who need to come up with a coordinated response
on how to manage TOCs they have already graded and how they deal with TOCs which are submitted from now
onwards.

cheers Jason

 

[itfciain]

I was saying to Grant earlier that any form of legal action against Toni would be very difficult unless it could be proved that he set out to deliberately mislead. I think the fact that he was always a man of very few works will stand him in good stead. Unless he has openly advertised these as factory sealed, original carded figures then any action against him will be fruitless. The fact that a lot of these were graded after he sold them meant that the community as a whole bought into the idea that these were original and I don't believe that Toni had to do a lot to convince people to buy them

Even if he does admit the fact that he sealed them later on then I don't think there is a enough proof that he committed fraud

 

[x-pack]

Not sure. Someone would have to speak with Trading Standards on this really. That should be relatively easy as it's not as formal as reporting something to the police.

I might be teaching people to suck eggs here but pretty much once you report a crime to the police they have to act on it these days. Depending on who the officer you speak to is, once you say 'please can I have a word about this potential fraud' you've essentially confirmed a crime has occurred. If that person then back tracks and says 'well no i'm not saying that... ' then things could get embarrassing :?

Trading Standards is the way to go should anyone wish to pursue it IMO.

 

[Grant_C]

I was told it would depend on the officer.

I was also told find an officer who is a Star Wars fan who has just spent his day filling in a report on rescuing a cat out of a tree and this bird will fly.

 

[x-pack]

And on a lighter note...

I think it's the fire service who rescue cats from trees Grant :lol: This short film shows why

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ak0ASg_6FA

 

[kingken23]

Hi All,

I've spent some time reading through this thread and this is a pretty unbelievable turn of events! In my collection of 120+ carded figures (that I've put together over the last 16 years) I have 4 that came from Tony and fit the bill, I have pics of my collection cataloged and here are what I have, don't know if this is helpful at all for reference. These came direct from him about 6-7 years ago and even back then cost me a fair amount.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79894225@N03/sets/72157638961745344/

A couple of weeks ago I'd e-mailed him about adding some Yoda's to my collection and he said he didn't had any currently so it's interesting to read on one of the posts that 'he was particularly interested in loose Yoda figures' it really makes me wonder if he was literally going to knock some up for me???

Great work guys on piecing all this together! If it does turn out to be true it amazes me that he's been able to keep it under wraps for nearly 20 years! I really hope we get a clear answer on all this mess and collecting can get back to normal.

Hope you all have a great Christmas!
Barry

 

[mr_palitoy]

i would like to also point out that figures on the wrong cards really did not have a value back then and if they were rare figures or weapon on mismatch figure then most dealers would often just take the figure off the card and sell it lose .

so deliberately putting a figure on the wrong card would have been a wast back then, and as you saw in my post when i saw some of the Hoth troopers were not packaged well it was a disappointment to me and it made it harder for me to sell them back then.

so know one would have dose this to figures deliberately

as to Arthur putting them on the cards i do not know why he would have bothered ? he was buying them in and turning them around , he was not into plastic that much he liked older stuff like tin Robots etc so buying in these figures and then turning them around making some good money on them so he could buy a nice robot was more his stile .

just some thoughts and to show that i felt Arthur was a good by and a good dealer and a collector also .

jason

I think we need to take this investigation in a wider direction.

Toni is one of the big name guys in Tin Robot collecting.

This is the book he co-authored.

http://www.amazon.com/Future-Toys-robots-astronauts-spaceships/dp/1872727689

He sells them on this website:-

http://www.zoomertoys.com/

Tin Robot collecting can suffer from fakes and marriages (sticking the top and bottom half of good condition robots together) and the
prices these pieces go for is much higher than vintage star wars.

I read on one of the forums that there are some vintage star wars collectors who also collect tin robots and that
Toni's rep in the Tin Robot collecting community would also come into question.

Are the Tin Robot forums aware of what Toni has been alleged to be doing in vintage star wars? Are they looking
at their Tin Robots in a new light?

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

This appears to be the go to place for Tin Robots, and there is no mention of Toni on there yet...

http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/forum/27-robot-talk/

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

I don't think that discrediting him in the toy robot community is the way forward. Even though I don't doubt that the **** stirring is an attractive way to get a response.

As red leader said in the trench run.

Lets:

Stay on target.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I don't think that discrediting him in the toy robot community is the way forward. Even though I don't doubt that the **** stirring is an attractive way to get a response.

As red leader said in the trench run.

Lets:

Stay on target.

It's not something we should pursue, but we should give those guys the nod so they can check out their Toni's to make sure all is good.

cheers Jason

 

[KevinA]

Does any one have Toni's Paypal address(es) handy? I'd like to search my emails and verify if I've purchased from him.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Does any one have Toni's Paypal address(es) handy? I'd like to search my emails and verify if I've purchased from him.

[email protected]

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Maybe if it did go legal.

A signed petition by the community, even global, could not go ignored.

 

[KevinA]

I just took a look at my two 65 back Palitoy 4LOMs (none on the list but I thought I'd check anyways). One of them has an Italian import sticker on it, so I'd assume that one is safe. The other matches perfectly. One thing I noticed is they are both unsealed along the bottom where the double stem bubble would be. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or is useful or not. I thought it was interesting though that Palitoy seemingly just used the same machine to seal all the bubbles. I thought they would've changed it depending on the bubble type.

 

[ace]

One thing I noticed is they are both unsealed along the bottom where the double stem bubble would be. I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or is useful or not. I thought it was interesting though that Palitoy seemingly just used the same machine to seal all the bubbles. I thought they would've changed it depending on the bubble type.

VERY WELL SPOTTED

wow never even thought of that but that just it ok see we are learning more and more all the time , so the Toni CardGate drama at least found out something new that we did not know before

good find

j

 

[JohnA]

This appears to be the go to place for Tin Robots, and there is no mention of Toni on there yet...

http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/forum/27-robot-talk/

cheers Jason

Yes, that is the place to be. I've been off and on for a few years. Brian Stillman (Doc Atomic) of Plastic Galaxy fame is a pretty big name there. His blog: http://astoundingartifacts.blogspot.com/ He was blown away when this broke. He's known Toni's name for years as one beyond question. I don't think he wants to really spread it there until something is proven/decided. I can't speak for him but this is BIG and before ruining his name in another hobby it's worth being sure.

FWIW besides me and Brian, Lee Bullock, Shane, and... maybe Brody Walker all have accounts at Alphadrome.

John

 

[mr_palitoy]

This appears to be the go to place for Tin Robots, and there is no mention of Toni on there yet...

http://danefield.com/alpha/forums/forum/27-robot-talk/

cheers Jason

Yes, that is the place to be. I've been off and on for a few years. Brian Stillman (Doc Atomic) of Plastic Galaxy fame is a pretty big name there. His blog: http://astoundingartifacts.blogspot.com/ He was blown away when this broke. He's known Toni's name for years as one beyond question. I don't think he wants to really spread it there until something is proven/decided. I can't speak for him but this is BIG and before ruining his name in another hobby it's worth being sure.

FWIW besides me and Brian, Lee Bullock, Shane, and... maybe Brody Walker all have accounts at Alphadrome.

John

Cheers, I'll leave it to you guys to make a call on when Toni's tin robots need looking at.

Jason

 

[edd_jedi]

I agree, all we have 100% proof of so far is that somebody at some point was trying to make home made ironed MOCs, based on the figures Jason Joiner took to FF. Although there's a lot to suggest Toni has been doing it, there's zero concrete evidence yet. So I'd refrain from reputation crushing until more is known (if that ever happens.)

 

[spoons]

If Toni is innocent this thread is so libellous that we should all be worried - Toni's silence on that is fairly damning too

Maybe a quiet word to a few more tin robot guys is the way forward. If John and Lee have contacts Toni robots could be checked discretely.

 

[Caswellbot]

So from kevins pic of his 4 Lom bubble it looks like the same tooling was used at the factory to seal it as would be used on the twin stem bubbles which explains the two small areas that have been left unsealed.

With regards to the upside down hoth troopers I would say that tgey were attached to the card outside of a factory using amateur methods. It looks like the bubbles were sealed upside down because if they were the right way up they would be unable to house the hoth trooper figure.

 

[lee gray]

It makes me laugh to think how someone would pay high U grade prices for loose figures that he would then use to mount on a card that would in most cases cost less to buy than than a U grade.
Really cant be much profit in that.

 

[Richard_H]

We don't know that has happened yet. The u grades could be future stock. I'd also guess he's traded for a lot of it.

 

[lee gray]

We don't know that has happened yet. The u grades could be future stock. I'd also guess he's traded for a lot of it.

that is my assumption too. its all just theories right now which aint worth a hill of beans without proof.

one mi,ute i think hes guilty the next innocent. Hope hes innocent for everyone concerned.

 

[snaggletooth]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

 

[mr_palitoy]

Before the list surfaced I had some concern about these 3 MOC's but now it's just the Hammerhead, I can see the bubble position from the back implying there was pressure used, although it's not as visable as the other 2 MOC's. also seen a GM PD in hand yesterday which looks the same as my Hammerhead from the back.

These pics aren't great but if any one wants something else just ask
http://s19.photobucket.com/user/scotthughes1/library/Pics

This album is Private.

 

[snaggletooth]

Try again mate