What does this mean for ugrades? COO's?
Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.
- Thread starter Grant_C
- Start date
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Maulster79 said:
Ugrades were a bit of a joke before Tonigate, even more so now.
A lot of COO/card combo info is useless and wrong. Guides and resources should be changed to reflect Tonigate.
I'll be updating my Palioty cardback guide with a TOC list etc.
cheers Jason
Stargeezer
Sith Lord
Maulster79 said:
I said this before but this actually means many off those u-grades, could have been regular loose figures or AFA85 ones that gotwhere reattached to an original card (by Toni) and then got u-graded....
Luckily we have AFA to give them a score how nice they look and put them in a fancy case like Jason said, because at authenticating this is a big failure....
itfciain
Grand Master
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Yep, the one bright light in all of this is that Ugrades are now practically worthless (they are only worth the value of the same scored loose graded figure)
I think as well. the value of these beater cards that every Ugrader has sought to destroy will actually go flying up - as they practically guarantee to the buyer that it is a genuine, factory sealed item - rather than a TOC
I think as well. the value of these beater cards that every Ugrader has sought to destroy will actually go flying up - as they practically guarantee to the buyer that it is a genuine, factory sealed item - rather than a TOC
Stargeezer
Sith Lord
JJ something not brought up after you posted those scans, i assume the left top corners are folded because the pages are stapled togheter at that point? But why are the page numbers crossed out...??
Don't feel this as an personal attack, but i read people questioning this, so it might be better to get this cleared aswell?
Don't feel this as an personal attack, but i read people questioning this, so it might be better to get this cleared aswell?
poncho
Grand Master
thats a real politician answer from toni!itfciain said:
edd_jedi said:
yes this list was just the card backs un attached , there was a lot more figures on the other list that were carded and if they were all right and factory assembled they they will be fine .
i will at this time keep al the relevant paperwork safe and the figures also and i am happy to make them all available if legal action takes place .
thank god i keep that list , i just remembered thinking ho well its still interesting even though i lost the deal and kept it , but then i again i seem to hoard everything ;-)
hope this has been some help everyone
jason
Dark Sith Lord
Grand Master
mr_palitoy said:
What sort of a reply is that for ***** sake!
:roll: I dont really have a dog in this fight i dont think but I do remember i still have these
ESB 45 Back FX7
Looks fine to me but I took this figure to CE2 with me and do remember someone coming up to my stall and remarking that it was an interesting moc as it "appears to have a trilogo bubble" Is their any truth in this?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65400963@N03/9415325700/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65400963@N03/9415326366/
I also have this Palitoy 65 Back Double stem Han Hoth
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65400963@N03/8741175014/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65400963@N03/8740058667/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/65400963@N03/8741174772/
Hope these were useful. If you want anymore pics lmk. I brought them both from Auction
Stargeezer said:
just got the list in front of me looking at it now
ok looking at the scrubbed out numbers they have been numbered at least twice and maybe 3 times at one time once in red all pages and back all pages and in blue 2 pages .all page numbers seem to be 1 to 4 just done several times.
The pages i have are the original photo copied pages i got from Arthur and one corner of each of the pages has been folded over on the top right corner when he copied them ? , there is a hole for a staple on each page but the staple has been remove at some time so all pages are lose.
the blue writhing with the dollar singes is my writhing at the time i received the list .
there there are bits marked here and there also on the pages i think ?
i hope that is of help guys
jason
Fisrt, i would like to thank Jason J. to share that list. Sure it would help to descard "forged" cards from the rest...
Looking at the list, ¿Can we confirm that no other ESB Palitoy cardback, appart the TIE Pilot, were forged???
¿¿Are all other ESB Palitoy 45bk "B" legit???
¿¿Are all the ESB CLIPPER 45 back sold by TT legit???
As Jason "Mr.Palitoy" said, i am almost sure this list is incomplete or with a lot of mistakes...
JC
mr_palitoy said:
Looking at the list, ¿Can we confirm that no other ESB Palitoy cardback, appart the TIE Pilot, were forged???
¿¿Are all other ESB Palitoy 45bk "B" legit???
¿¿Are all the ESB CLIPPER 45 back sold by TT legit???
As Jason "Mr.Palitoy" said, i am almost sure this list is incomplete or with a lot of mistakes...
JC
Can I have your afa 90 leah boush really cheap then Jason as I wont be buying blind 
As for AFA some of the fett figures they graded 90 may not have come from toytoni as surely palitoy must have released some and with peopleselling and reselling, the buyers of these figures might be third generation so how are they to know which are and are not.
Also wouldnt it be really funny if this was some ploy from Jason just so everyone tried to shift their doubtful items cheap so he buys them all up and says i was only joking and then has the biggest mint palitoy collection in the world
As for AFA some of the fett figures they graded 90 may not have come from toytoni as surely palitoy must have released some and with peopleselling and reselling, the buyers of these figures might be third generation so how are they to know which are and are not.
Also wouldnt it be really funny if this was some ploy from Jason just so everyone tried to shift their doubtful items cheap so he buys them all up and says i was only joking and then has the biggest mint palitoy collection in the world
Richard_H
Grand Master
Congratulations guys from all 3 forums coming together to crack this. For me the evidence was damning way back - however I could understand the cautious approach from those who had a lot to lose.
However I still think there's comments being made still to cast suspicion on JJs motives like lees above - not the only one. And those repeatedly saying we'd never see the list. I'm assuming the apology is forthcoming to him?
I only go on what I see but in this case I believe JJ has been truthful throughout.
However I still think there's comments being made still to cast suspicion on JJs motives like lees above - not the only one. And those repeatedly saying we'd never see the list. I'm assuming the apology is forthcoming to him?
I only go on what I see but in this case I believe JJ has been truthful throughout.
Wow nice photos of sharks. I've been to a few of those places, he has spent some serious cash on dive holidays.
I'm sure most people would like to feed him to the sharks, but if in ends up going down the legal route then I imagine his defence will be along these lines:
I have sold carded Star Wars figures, but I never claimed they were originally sealed at the Palitoy factory.
The fact that he is a man of few words will help him. His website does not describe what he sells, I can't even find reference to Mint On Card, even if it does he can claim they are Mint on Card. He mentions factory punched 45b-bossk factory punched 8.5. The card is probably factory punched, would this be described as 'mis selling'.
Trading standards and legal people will only be interested if what he describes is not what he is selling.
The less the description, the less come back people will have.
1. People who have bought his stuff need to decide what resolution they are looking for.
2. Is the legal route the best way of achieving this?
3. Does anyone have any written orders for 'Originally sealed at the Palitoy Factory, xx carded figure'?
4. Would it be better 'to send the boys round' (peacefully), 'ask' him to donate all his remaining stock to compensate those affected?
Perhaps his remaining stock could be sold honestly by a respected person from the SW community, the proceeds could be used to compensate those who have bought dodgy stuff off him.
If it goes legal then his representatives would have advised him to do this anyway, so I'm not giving TT ideas. Mods can always delete the post.
I don't think this will go anywhere legally, it will just cost everyone lots of cash!
A peaceful, honest and frank face to face conversation with some neutral & well respected members of the SW community.
Sorry for the long post, but i help this is useful in deciding what action to take next.
I'm sure most people would like to feed him to the sharks, but if in ends up going down the legal route then I imagine his defence will be along these lines:
I have sold carded Star Wars figures, but I never claimed they were originally sealed at the Palitoy factory.
The fact that he is a man of few words will help him. His website does not describe what he sells, I can't even find reference to Mint On Card, even if it does he can claim they are Mint on Card. He mentions factory punched 45b-bossk factory punched 8.5. The card is probably factory punched, would this be described as 'mis selling'.
Trading standards and legal people will only be interested if what he describes is not what he is selling.
The less the description, the less come back people will have.
1. People who have bought his stuff need to decide what resolution they are looking for.
2. Is the legal route the best way of achieving this?
3. Does anyone have any written orders for 'Originally sealed at the Palitoy Factory, xx carded figure'?
4. Would it be better 'to send the boys round' (peacefully), 'ask' him to donate all his remaining stock to compensate those affected?
Perhaps his remaining stock could be sold honestly by a respected person from the SW community, the proceeds could be used to compensate those who have bought dodgy stuff off him.
If it goes legal then his representatives would have advised him to do this anyway, so I'm not giving TT ideas. Mods can always delete the post.
I don't think this will go anywhere legally, it will just cost everyone lots of cash!
A peaceful, honest and frank face to face conversation with some neutral & well respected members of the SW community.
Sorry for the long post, but i help this is useful in deciding what action to take next.
PIGCITY said:
Richard_H
Grand Master
And to add we need an accurate list of affected cards urgently. Josh's clipper needs discussed and cleared up unless I've missed it?
Dark Sith Lord
Grand Master
Cc4rhu said:
Agreed Rich. It needs to be added to the other thread. This thread is hard to keep up with
Signed up to post here on this mess....
Surely both the" take a team to Brighton"and "poor Toni"camps are both ends of a disgruntled spectrum.
Although I'm very much in the knocking his door camp,I realise as an adult such things are frowned upon and ultimately not a solution. The solution has been mentioned that some respected UK ers(David Tree,Lee Bullock)etc should attempt a dialogue to redress this.....if the offending contraband is released to a 3rd party and either sold or offered to victims of the fraud as compensation. Then at least the cards can no longer be used to recard his fake MOCs.
Has anybody here got a good friendly relationship with Toni,that could talk to him and make him see the light,and results of his actions?
And how widespread and devastating it was to those affected???
I'm probably being naive to think there will be a satisfactory resolution to this,but hey it's late December ...and my fingers are crossed for a Christmas Miracle.....
Darren
Surely both the" take a team to Brighton"and "poor Toni"camps are both ends of a disgruntled spectrum.
Although I'm very much in the knocking his door camp,I realise as an adult such things are frowned upon and ultimately not a solution. The solution has been mentioned that some respected UK ers(David Tree,Lee Bullock)etc should attempt a dialogue to redress this.....if the offending contraband is released to a 3rd party and either sold or offered to victims of the fraud as compensation. Then at least the cards can no longer be used to recard his fake MOCs.
Has anybody here got a good friendly relationship with Toni,that could talk to him and make him see the light,and results of his actions?
And how widespread and devastating it was to those affected???
I'm probably being naive to think there will be a satisfactory resolution to this,but hey it's late December ...and my fingers are crossed for a Christmas Miracle.....
Darren
Richard_H
Grand Master
Great. Another Man U fan on here. 
:lol:
:lol:
Thanks for joining Darren. Personally I think both the legal route and 'getting the boys round' are a waste of time. In my opinion the best resolution would be:
- A proper admission from Toni, with full details if possible (eg which ones he has sealed himself)
- Create a list of the above figures and make sure everybody knows about it
- Null all AFA/UKG grades (I know they won't refund the money, so just remove them from the database)
- Allow the ones already in the wild to remain as bootlegs (they should then retain some value for the owners)
- Ensure no more are created and any leftover 'materials' are properly archived (personally I think a box of Palitoy bubbles or card backs would be a great collectable for the right person - Steve Sansweet?)
And that's about it. Realistically nobody is going to get their money back unless they paid via Paypal within the last 3 months, nobody is going to go to jail, and nobody is going to go knocking at his door.
- A proper admission from Toni, with full details if possible (eg which ones he has sealed himself)
- Create a list of the above figures and make sure everybody knows about it
- Null all AFA/UKG grades (I know they won't refund the money, so just remove them from the database)
- Allow the ones already in the wild to remain as bootlegs (they should then retain some value for the owners)
- Ensure no more are created and any leftover 'materials' are properly archived (personally I think a box of Palitoy bubbles or card backs would be a great collectable for the right person - Steve Sansweet?)
And that's about it. Realistically nobody is going to get their money back unless they paid via Paypal within the last 3 months, nobody is going to go to jail, and nobody is going to go knocking at his door.
jedisearcher
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Paying for legal advice without any indication of success isn't a good way forward. The citizens advice bureau offer a service to deal with consumer issues which this seems to be as he's selling on various platforms.
If we take it up with them and they say you've got no chance then no one will be further out of pocket. If they say you've got a case then the matter goes to trading standards who can get police and hmrc involved. If it's somewhere in the middle then so be it. They'll also be better placed than the police fraud guys in the first instance.
The link is https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=citacomplainform&to=flare.fromforms
You can also phone etc. perhaps if we can pull together a form of words and facts (we need to be really careful here to avoid appearance of a witch hunt) then afew of us lodge complaints then they'll have to at least look at it.
If we take it up with them and they say you've got no chance then no one will be further out of pocket. If they say you've got a case then the matter goes to trading standards who can get police and hmrc involved. If it's somewhere in the middle then so be it. They'll also be better placed than the police fraud guys in the first instance.
The link is https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=citacomplainform&to=flare.fromforms
You can also phone etc. perhaps if we can pull together a form of words and facts (we need to be really careful here to avoid appearance of a witch hunt) then afew of us lodge complaints then they'll have to at least look at it.
jedisearcher
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Re the flickr stuff how do we know that's him btw?
Ordered a black light today, will check the seals once it's here. This is probably the best way to confirm what the lists are saying. Everyone should get one, they cost less than a fiver and if you want to sell 'at risk' stuff in the future it's prob the only way you're gonna convince buyers they're real
Ordered a black light today, will check the seals once it's here. This is probably the best way to confirm what the lists are saying. Everyone should get one, they cost less than a fiver and if you want to sell 'at risk' stuff in the future it's prob the only way you're gonna convince buyers they're real
Hey...why is my lightsaber so small....ahem
Edd.....your points seem very measured.....but I don't think donating the contraband if it was voluntarily offered up to Sansweet is any sort of redress to those affected.
I'm also not that naive to assume everybody is going to be satisfied with any aftermath to this,but surely the remaining card stock would be wanted as some sort of compensation if there is no chance of any monetary compensation?...
One per item affected??.....that would at least be something tangible that might even have some value as a curio or genuine vintage item.
Once those affected had their compensation the overstock could be donated to Gus or Steve or even(shock horror) Jason!!!...or split amongst them.
Those 3 are great hoarders so I doubt they'd be selling them on.....
I honestly have no idea how it would work,but a bit of tinkering and polling collectors affected would reach a consensus....
If Toni EVER does the right thing... :roll:
Darren
Edd.....your points seem very measured.....but I don't think donating the contraband if it was voluntarily offered up to Sansweet is any sort of redress to those affected.
I'm also not that naive to assume everybody is going to be satisfied with any aftermath to this,but surely the remaining card stock would be wanted as some sort of compensation if there is no chance of any monetary compensation?...
One per item affected??.....that would at least be something tangible that might even have some value as a curio or genuine vintage item.
Once those affected had their compensation the overstock could be donated to Gus or Steve or even(shock horror) Jason!!!...or split amongst them.
Those 3 are great hoarders so I doubt they'd be selling them on.....
I honestly have no idea how it would work,but a bit of tinkering and polling collectors affected would reach a consensus....
If Toni EVER does the right thing... :roll:
Darren
Richard_H
Grand Master
I think as one small step to get out of this mess UKG/AFA should offer a free recall for all potentially affected cards. Armed with this new information they should be able to look at these again to put people's minds at ease. Any that are suspect get stricken off the numbers.
_Darren_ said:
I don't think the unused cardbacks have any value - bear in mind the ones graded by AFA were done so as proofs, so they are now null and void too. People may want them, but they are unassembled stock, just like the bubbles, so should not be in circulation.
The whole appeal of proof cards is that they are pre-production, and there aren't many of them. I'm pretty sure if 500 unused C-3PO cardbacks hit the market tomorrow, bearing in mind the TOCs were only selling for £40, they would struggle to sell for more than a fiver each.
Plus, do we really want these in circulation? The same could happen again. Hence my suggestion of somebody responsible having them.
Plus, do we really want these in circulation? The same could happen again. Hence my suggestion of somebody responsible having them.
olisuds said:
Well I have to publicly apologise to Jason here. He did come through with the list and it has moved this whole situation significantly further forward.
So thank you and apologies once again. I didn't mean to doubt you but when this got past the 100 page mark I lost a little confidence.
I still have ZERO confidence in Toni coming through with a picture or a decent explanation! His communication so far is seriously inadequate considering the scale of the allegations.
Any chance this is going to end up over 200 pages by year end?
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