Captainsolo1978
Jedi Master
So is it possible the bubbles may now be repro????
This just gets worse and worse...
This just gets worse and worse...
Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.
- Thread starter Grant_C
- Start date
kraftdermacht
Padawan
kraftdermacht said:Guys, amazing CSI findings tonight. 12 of my 23 TT GM cards show a clearly different blacklight appearance! All my about 35 loose cards and non TT figures appear clear white under blacklight. 12 TT card are much more blueish! I took pictures but hard to photograph. Will post tomorrow. (I found one Palitoy Rotj loose card that is also bluish.)
Mattias, any idea about this?
Main reason was that I wanted to check my 2005 TT FX7 because of the odd bubble. It is also bluish btw.
Wolfgang
( perhaps not the biggest news after JJs post)
Sorry for not directly checking last night. Yes, the bluish under blacklight GM cards are the ones with English text on the back.
Wolfgang
Stargeezer
Sith Lord
Wow lots off evolution again in this thread, you have to keep reading daily to keep up with this.
Its nice to finally see a list posted and this does in general seem to match up with Toni buying and selling material.
What i was wondering, did anyone Take screenshots of ToyToni's website allready before its taken down, just to be sure that info is not lost aswell?
Its nice to finally see a list posted and this does in general seem to match up with Toni buying and selling material.
What i was wondering, did anyone Take screenshots of ToyToni's website allready before its taken down, just to be sure that info is not lost aswell?
Dublinjeff
Grand Master
Stargeezer said:
Good idea :wink:
Mr-shifter
Sith Lord
His site is still up. I have gone through it this morning and surprise surprise, it all tallies up. What he has available and listed as sold on his "Palitoy" and "European" parts of his site are the same as the figures on the list with a couple of little discrepancies, i.e. jedi versions of cards that on the list it says he only got empire cards.
So what we now have effectively is Tonis original stock numbers. I know it doesn't specifically say that they are unused card backs (They could all be MOC's) but there were definitely unused bubbles on the list, and these seem to be the figures that he is most interested in buying loose versions of.
It would be nice if Jason could find the list of MOC's that were on offer as part of this deal. I would expect that to contain a lot of other toni cards that he's well known for but aren't suspect, i.e. meccano jawa's and POTF barada's and ammanaman's. It would give us the best picture as to what Toni has sold in the past that may be part of this scandal and what may be ok.
So what we now have effectively is Tonis original stock numbers. I know it doesn't specifically say that they are unused card backs (They could all be MOC's) but there were definitely unused bubbles on the list, and these seem to be the figures that he is most interested in buying loose versions of.
It would be nice if Jason could find the list of MOC's that were on offer as part of this deal. I would expect that to contain a lot of other toni cards that he's well known for but aren't suspect, i.e. meccano jawa's and POTF barada's and ammanaman's. It would give us the best picture as to what Toni has sold in the past that may be part of this scandal and what may be ok.
Captainsolo1978 said:
Good point. The same thing has been bothering me for a couple of days.
Robbie and Edd both touched on it but it got lost in discussion.
A fair few of my old jedi 45 backs that came from shop/child collections had twin stem bubbles on. All but one of these had small splits at the stem and are notoriously fragile. The ones on Toni's cards are all in amazing condition. It's as if they are made from stronger plastic?
Also his regular Palitoy rectangular bubbles are all crystal clear, but having a quick look on eBay yesterday, there are a few of these bubbles that have yellowed.
The thing is, because Toni has been selling these longer than the graders have been around, its been accepted by them that the seals and bubbles are legit. If the seals have tricked the graders and collectors, could repro bubbles have also fooled everyone. He would have had to have had a load of bubbles to knock all those cardbacks into mocs?
Bramistuta25
Sith Lord
I feel a Kaiser Soze moment coming on...
..."and like that, he was gone"...
..."and like that, he was gone"...
Mr-shifter
Sith Lord
Bramistuta25 said:
"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he did not exist"
itfciain
Grand Master
- Joined
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So what is the 'NEXT STEP'
I would say that pretty much everyone is now convinced that something has gone on. For me Toni's silence in all of this was always the biggest tell that something wasn't right.
However we now have a list of items produced by Jason that tallies up hand-writing wise with the company paperwork registered by Arthur &Toni (something that Toni has actually admitted to). This list tallies up with all of the items that TT is know to sell and also tallies up with the loose figures that he has been buying from eBay and the guys on here.
People have spotted issues with a) the condition of the figures (paint loss), b) the COOs for figures that shouldn't be found in these cards, c) the early bubbles attached to the card using a domestic iron, d) the 'wrong' bubble being used and e) quality control issues with the card backs themselves
Armed with all of this, we need statements from AFA & UKG as to their position - they have graded some of these items and they have then been sold on to collectors around the world who believe they were getting authentic, factory sealed carded figures
I think that some sort of legal action also needs to be taken against Toni - Jason for example has purchased up to £5,000 worth of figures from Toni and they are 'fakes' - God only knows the true extent of this but something needs to be done to draw Toni out into making a statement
All in all it is one giant mess and I don't think anyone can say for certainly, at this moment in time, how much damage has been done to this hobby.
I would say that pretty much everyone is now convinced that something has gone on. For me Toni's silence in all of this was always the biggest tell that something wasn't right.
However we now have a list of items produced by Jason that tallies up hand-writing wise with the company paperwork registered by Arthur &Toni (something that Toni has actually admitted to). This list tallies up with all of the items that TT is know to sell and also tallies up with the loose figures that he has been buying from eBay and the guys on here.
People have spotted issues with a) the condition of the figures (paint loss), b) the COOs for figures that shouldn't be found in these cards, c) the early bubbles attached to the card using a domestic iron, d) the 'wrong' bubble being used and e) quality control issues with the card backs themselves
Armed with all of this, we need statements from AFA & UKG as to their position - they have graded some of these items and they have then been sold on to collectors around the world who believe they were getting authentic, factory sealed carded figures
I think that some sort of legal action also needs to be taken against Toni - Jason for example has purchased up to £5,000 worth of figures from Toni and they are 'fakes' - God only knows the true extent of this but something needs to be done to draw Toni out into making a statement
All in all it is one giant mess and I don't think anyone can say for certainly, at this moment in time, how much damage has been done to this hobby.
i agree, if we as a community (RS, TIG and SWFUK) tallied up total expenditure and contacted the police and inland revenue there would be some sort of investigation, 1000's of people complaining of money obtained by deception would trigger something.
AFA and UKG need to issue a statement on their site and ebay need to be informed too, to stop all these people trying to flip them to poor unknowing collectors.
AFA and UKG need to issue a statement on their site and ebay need to be informed too, to stop all these people trying to flip them to poor unknowing collectors.
I think the good news Iain is that the overall damage is limited. It's only a handful of figures on a handful of European cardbacks, so personally I would now only consider buying any of the affected combinations if there was evidence of authenticity (eg price stickers.)
As for what the people that have bought them can do, very little I imagine. Most were bought with cheques years ago, and I can't see it standing up in court either (can you really see a judge caring whether a bubble was sealed in 1980 or 1990?) I suggest people just don't buy any more and as already said those in circulation are basically accepted as bootlegs that still hold some value.
This has however highlighted two things that most before this thought impossible - there are stocks of unused cards/bubbles out there, and you can make convincing 'factory' seals at home. So I imagine people will be a lot less trusting from now on. It has also highlighted one thing I knew already but many didn't seem to - AFA's opinion on authenticity is no more valid than anybody elses.
As for what the people that have bought them can do, very little I imagine. Most were bought with cheques years ago, and I can't see it standing up in court either (can you really see a judge caring whether a bubble was sealed in 1980 or 1990?) I suggest people just don't buy any more and as already said those in circulation are basically accepted as bootlegs that still hold some value.
This has however highlighted two things that most before this thought impossible - there are stocks of unused cards/bubbles out there, and you can make convincing 'factory' seals at home. So I imagine people will be a lot less trusting from now on. It has also highlighted one thing I knew already but many didn't seem to - AFA's opinion on authenticity is no more valid than anybody elses.
A statement from AFA and UKG are a good step forward.
I would suggest the only step forward is to seek advice from the fraud squad. Their experience will give the community the direction it will need for the next step. Who ever moves ahead with this, keep it offline. Its a major fraud and people do crazy **** when they are backed in a corner.
Gutted.
Im so sorry for everyone who is caught up in this mess as its looking more likely that we've have been ripped off.
What a sad day for the community.
Professionals should take this on.
I would suggest the only step forward is to seek advice from the fraud squad. Their experience will give the community the direction it will need for the next step. Who ever moves ahead with this, keep it offline. Its a major fraud and people do crazy **** when they are backed in a corner.
Gutted.
Im so sorry for everyone who is caught up in this mess as its looking more likely that we've have been ripped off.
What a sad day for the community.
Professionals should take this on.
ace said:i just wanted to have a bit of fun guys as it has been tuff on here at times for us all .
i just bought my wife a early Christmas present and its made us both very happy :-D
the screen used Monty Python Meaning Of Life Tiger outfit
I wish you all a very Merry Christmas everyone
jason
This thread is moving waaaaayyyyy to quickly to keep up
Some mega revelations guys
JJ - that is a brilliant present for the Mrs :lol:
Also having owned hundreds of Trilogo and Kenner MOCs over the last 20 years, and taking into consideration the 10+ purchases I have made from Toni over that period, I would vouch that a lot of the carded figures he has sold are legit.
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
itfciain said:
Of the 20, 3 were purchased directly from Toni. The rest are a mixture from the usual dealers from 5 odd years back, galactables, brians toys etc.
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Toni update. I think the enormity of what he has done to the hobby is finally sinking in.
I sent this email last night after analysing JJ's list:-
================================
Hi Toni
Jason Joiner has published the list of stock that you bought off Arthur.
The handwritten list's handwriting matches that of Arthurs publicly available documents foe Xceptional limited, the company you had with him. So the list of stock is definitely not fake and comes from Arthur.
I have looked at the list of unused cardbacks and figures and constructed a list of figures that would be required to be bought to recard after you ran out of original figures.
This matches the list of figures you are buying on your secret ebay account, you know, the one with the ever changing random user name.
The list of unused cardbacks also matches the list of MOC figures you have been selling over the years.
Would you care to comment please?
cheers Jason
I sent this email last night after analysing JJ's list:-
================================
Hi Toni
Jason Joiner has published the list of stock that you bought off Arthur.
The handwritten list's handwriting matches that of Arthurs publicly available documents foe Xceptional limited, the company you had with him. So the list of stock is definitely not fake and comes from Arthur.
I have looked at the list of unused cardbacks and figures and constructed a list of figures that would be required to be bought to recard after you ran out of original figures.
This matches the list of figures you are buying on your secret ebay account, you know, the one with the ever changing random user name.
The list of unused cardbacks also matches the list of MOC figures you have been selling over the years.
Would you care to comment please?
cheers Jason
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
His response about 20 mins ago:-
"hi Jason I got you previous email and I do totally understand you comments .These items are important to collectors and mean a lot to them . I am sorry about what is happening in that community .Basically Im overwhelemed by all this .regards Toni"
"hi Jason I got you previous email and I do totally understand you comments .These items are important to collectors and mean a lot to them . I am sorry about what is happening in that community .Basically Im overwhelemed by all this .regards Toni"
Stargeezer
Sith Lord
Come on, what kinda ****** reply is that.... Toni, wake up, your busted, just get your conscience clean and spill the truth about what's going on.
I think we are beyond the point where you can save your credibility within the hobby, so at least give us the truth.
I think we are beyond the point where you can save your credibility within the hobby, so at least give us the truth.
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
My thoughts about what happens next.
Court case - I am not going to instigate it. I would imagine I'd be called at witness if it did go to court. Will be hanging on to all my TOCs until then,
as they could well be used as evidence.
TOCs - the price on these are going to go through the floor. In time they be seen as collectable bootlegs, time will tell.
My collecting - I am out of collecting MOC period. Havent bought hardly any in the last 3 years anyway and do cardabcks in a big way
anyway, so no change for me really. I love the first 20 Palioty SW MOC I have and they remind me of getting them as a kid. They are
not in question. The ESB/ROTJ Palitoy ones mean little apart from the AFA 90 grade, which is worthless and they are a reminder of
what a chump I was when I started collecting, so I think in the long term I'll sell them on with full disclosure.
AFA - AFA are not an authentication service. They tell you how nice they think it looks with the AFA grade and then put it in a nice box for you. And that's it.
Jason
Court case - I am not going to instigate it. I would imagine I'd be called at witness if it did go to court. Will be hanging on to all my TOCs until then,
as they could well be used as evidence.
TOCs - the price on these are going to go through the floor. In time they be seen as collectable bootlegs, time will tell.
My collecting - I am out of collecting MOC period. Havent bought hardly any in the last 3 years anyway and do cardabcks in a big way
anyway, so no change for me really. I love the first 20 Palioty SW MOC I have and they remind me of getting them as a kid. They are
not in question. The ESB/ROTJ Palitoy ones mean little apart from the AFA 90 grade, which is worthless and they are a reminder of
what a chump I was when I started collecting, so I think in the long term I'll sell them on with full disclosure.
AFA - AFA are not an authentication service. They tell you how nice they think it looks with the AFA grade and then put it in a nice box for you. And that's it.
Jason
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