Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Richard_H]

And if he sold the worst what'd people be saying?

Anyway he's already said collectors were very fussy back then and even miscards were deemed worthless.

 

[M4K3R1]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

 

[tobi-wan]

Please check your Luke Farmboy! This is also a PBP (late) figure! I never saw one on a German card before! :O

Hi. My luck I did not buy this:

I noticed that the figure is cracked inside the bubble! I have to check who the seller was and what the history of this is.

Wolfgang

I bought this carded figure. Are any close up pictures helpful?

 

[spoons]

That seems pretty irresponsible to me at this juncture.

That is outrageous

Despite all the conjecture in here that post just seems like a means to get website hits

 

[Richard_H]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

Not sure what you mean.
He bought a collection. These were in there. Poor quality. Knew they wouldn't sell so kept them.
That is ok with me.

Now the 500+ I'd have to go back a few pages but hasn't he already talked about this at least twice I recall?

Edit - yes he answers this. 80% looked fine and he sold them. 20% looked a mess and were sold at the price of a loose figure.

 

[jay4]

just incase anything is of any use im gonna post up some pics of the several gm cards i got from TT circa 2001-2002
1st up iron marked stormie ive used best light i could to show it up

 

[M_Rendahl]

So here's what I think happened.

These cards were produced in the Palitoy factory, initially with the "STAR WARS ACTION FIGURES Collect all 45!" text on the back.
These cards were pulled and not released to the German market because it was thought the English text on the back was not appropriate
for the German market. The cards were all stored in the factory and not released. The text was then removed and more cards were
produced which all made it to the German market. When the factory closed, Arthur bought the unused stock including these unreleased cards.
Toni then bought them all off him and has been trickling them into the general collectors market ever since. Almost all MOC that are out there in collectors
hands have originated from Toni and the unreleased cards from the Palitoy factory.

And thats it. I haven't commented on whether the unreleased cards were assembled at the factory or later from their components as that is
in dispute given the commentary from JJ and Toni.

That pretty much explains the cards we see today and their condition and whether they have price stickers on them or not.

I'm late to the German cardback party (too much stuff to go through), but I think you're absolutely correct in your above post, Jason. Here's a thing that almost "proves" that. The picture is a QC signed (by Palitoy who printed the German cardbacks) German 2-1b carded figure, that DOESN'T have the English text on the back. This is another thing that indicates that much of the stuff from Toni indeed could all be QC rejected stuff from the beginning. Cardbacks with English text was printed, the mistake was discovered, the cards set aside and a new printing without the text took place, and those were the cards that hit the German market, and an example was taken and marked with QC approval stickers and set aside for future reference. Enjoy the German 2-LB Droid...

Mattias

PS. I didn't post this in Joe's new thread (great idea), I think it would be best if one person (read Joe) got all the important stuff assembled there, so that it doesnt turn out to be yet another thread about this.

 

[Richard_H]

Awesome cardback. Why does is it referred to as 2-LB do you know?

 

[mumbo]

That seems pretty irresponsible to me at this juncture.

That is outrageous

Despite all the conjecture in here that post just seems like a means to get website hits

First thing I thought too.

 

[Caswellbot]

just incase anything is of any use im gonna post up some pics of the several gm cards i got from TT circa 2001-2002
1st up iron marked stormie ive used best light i could to show it up

Bought from toytoni direct! Thanks for posting this. Please do post up the rest of your cards. Thanks.

 

[wbobafett]

Please check your Luke Farmboy! This is also a PBP (late) figure! I never saw one on a German card before! :O

Hi. My luck I did not buy this:

I noticed that the figure is cracked inside the bubble! I have to check who the seller was and what the history of this is.

Wolfgang

I bought this carded figure. Are any close up pictures helpful?

Do not worry IF it is fake...the figure itself is worth a fortune

I hope that helps, but IMo the seal looks very strange! Seems to be an early attemp??


Anyway:

@Wolfgang:

I am really looking forward to your inspections. Finally someone trying to really shed some light into this with lots of material to compare!!! Please keep on inspecting!

Best

Wolff

 

[lee gray]

I had a carded hothtrooper with a bubble like that before i got from jim stevenson, it was so scrunched up on the seal i hated it and let my mate have it really cheap.

 

[mr_palitoy]

So here's what I think happened.

These cards were produced in the Palitoy factory, initially with the "STAR WARS ACTION FIGURES Collect all 45!" text on the back.
These cards were pulled and not released to the German market because it was thought the English text on the back was not appropriate
for the German market. The cards were all stored in the factory and not released. The text was then removed and more cards were
produced which all made it to the German market. When the factory closed, Arthur bought the unused stock including these unreleased cards.
Toni then bought them all off him and has been trickling them into the general collectors market ever since. Almost all MOC that are out there in collectors
hands have originated from Toni and the unreleased cards from the Palitoy factory.

And thats it. I haven't commented on whether the unreleased cards were assembled at the factory or later from their components as that is
in dispute given the commentary from JJ and Toni.

That pretty much explains the cards we see today and their condition and whether they have price stickers on them or not.

I'm late to the German cardback party (too much stuff to go through), but I think you're absolutely correct in your above post, Jason. Here's a thing that almost "proves" that. The picture is a QC signed (by Palitoy who printed the German cardbacks) German 2-1b carded figure, that DOESN'T have the English text on the back. This is another thing that indicates that much of the stuff from Toni indeed could all be QC rejected stuff from the beginning. Cardbacks with English text was printed, the mistake was discovered, the cards set aside and a new printing without the text took place, and those were the cards that hit the German market, and an example was taken and marked with QC approval stickers and set aside for future reference. Enjoy the German 2-LB Droid...

Mattias

PS. I didn't post this in Joe's new thread (great idea), I think it would be best if one person (read Joe) got all the important stuff assembled there, so that it doesnt turn out to be yet another thread about this.

Hi Mattias, I saw that QC 2-1b at CE2! Didnt' see the back though! Great piece. After I made the post above it came to light that some GM cards (not many) with english text on the back made it to market in the UK and according to Michael from hell, also to market in in Germany which I subsequently posted about later in this thread. So maybe the first batch were shipped before the mistake was corrected and the subsequent batches were stored in the palitoy factory.



cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

just incase anything is of any use im gonna post up some pics of the several gm cards i got from TT circa 2001-2002
1st up iron marked stormie ive used best light i could to show it up

Bought from toytoni direct! Thanks for posting this. Please do post up the rest of your cards. Thanks.

Holy ****. Toni really does do the ironing. This is one of his early efforts!



Jason

 

[Dublinjeff]

Please check your Luke Farmboy! This is also a PBP (late) figure! I never saw one on a German card before! :O

Hi. My luck I did not buy this:

I noticed that the figure is cracked inside the bubble! I have to check who the seller was and what the history of this is.

Wolfgang

I bought this carded figure. Are any close up pictures helpful?

I'd like that card for my focus :?

 

[Chico]

Quick question, how long has Toni been dealing in moc (real fake or otherwise?). Is it only recently that they have been achieving grades?

 

[jay4]

yip i will do caswell ,edit sensored :lol:

 

[M4K3R1]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

Not sure what you mean.
He bought a collection. These were in there. Poor quality. Knew they wouldn't sell so kept them.
That is ok with me.

Now the 500+ I'd have to go back a few pages but hasn't he already talked about this at least twice I recall?

Edit - yes he answers this. 80% looked fine and he sold them. 20% looked a mess and were sold at the price of a loose figure.

I guess that makes it OK then, his word is gold.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Quick question, how long has Toni been dealing in moc (real fake or otherwise?). Is it only recently that they have been achieving grades?

Over 20 years. Toni's were around before AFA started grading star wars stuff I believe.

Jason

 

[ace]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

 

[Chico]

Thanks Jason. That's exactly what I hoped to hear.

In that case I don't understand the wonky cards that apparently came from him early this century. If he'd already been at this for a decade by then why is he sending out duff cards with bubbles upside down!?!

As I've said before I agree there is a mountain of evidence staking up against Toni, but there are also more than a few things coming forward that don't stack up either. I just think as a community we shouldn't be so focused on Toni that we are missing other 'details' or assume that he was working alone.

 

[ace]

Thanks Jason. That's exactly what I hoped to hear.

In that case I don't understand the wonky cards that apparently came from him early this century. If he'd already been at this for a decade by then why is he sending out duff cards with bubbles upside down!?!

As I've said before I agree there is a mountain of evidence staking up against Toni, but there are also more than a few things coming forward that don't stack up either. I just think as a community we shouldn't be so focused on Toni that we are missing other 'details' or assume that he was working alone.

hi Chico i do not know if Toni was working with Arthur or not from the start ? it seems they both were in business for many years ? but as to anyone else being involved i do not know of anyone other than Arthur and Toni selling these figures and apart from the 1st bulk of 500 Fetts and trooper figures i managed to buy from Arthur at the start before Toni bought them from him sins then i have only herd of Toni selling them sins .

i also agree that there is more to get into to fully understand the full story , but i really feel we need to get on top of the Toni aspect of all this and get this agreed and closed then we can look into if there is others involved ?

hope that helps

jason

 

[plantman]

Has anyone asked Toni to show his extensive "moc" collection via picture or in the flesh? this could be solved if he allowed someone to see, obviously i know he wont, but worth asking.

 

[jay4]

edit sensored :mrgreen:

 

[M_Rendahl]

Hi Mattias, I saw that QC 2-1b at CE2! Didnt' see the back though! Great piece. After I made the post above it came to light that some GM cards (not many) with english text on the back made it to market in the UK and according to Michael from hell, also to market in in Germany which I subsequently posted about later in this thread. So maybe the first batch were shipped before the mistake was corrected and the subsequent batches were stored in the palitoy factory.

Argh, too many pages LOL At least it shows they likely werent meant to hit the German market.

Mattias

 

[Chico]

Thanks for the reply. I still don't understand why someone who deals in flawless cards (real or otherwise) is also selling crap like this 10 years down the line?

 

[tiefighterboy]

Thanks for the reply. I still don't understand why someone who deals in flawless cards (real or otherwise) is also selling crap like this 10 years down the line?

Amazing that these look like they were sealed by a three year old....either that or an older novice collectors attempt. :wink:

 

[M4K3R1]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

Yes i know that Jason, thanks for answering.
Isnt that exactlly what TT has said, he knows nothing about the post factory sealing,
just the same as you knew nothing about it.
You seem hellbent on pinning this on him without any proof.
You always redirect any question to yourself back to concentrating on TT, why,
why not question others than TT.
Not doubting the fact about the post factory seals being sold by TT,
or the fact that they are post factory seals done by someone at home,
But were is the hard and concrete proof that TT is actually doing the sealling himself.
As for TT bying the U grade figures that match up to the type of figures TT is selling on sealed cards,
can you or anyone actually match a loose figure TT bought to one TT sold on a sealled card.
If you cant, then all you have is TT selling the post factory seals unknowinglly, just the same as you did.
Not questioning the the post factory sealed debate,
but the fact that you are still acusing him of doing the sealling himself,
with out the solid evidence need to prove this.

Hope you understand what i am trying to convey to you.
Regards.
Oscar.

 

[Joseph_Y]

So what, i dont get it.
You seem to think it is OK.
He is also reponsible for at least 500++++ of these being out ther now.

hi M4K3R1 i did not know there was anything untoward with the background of these figures when i sold them , i knew there was issue with the way some of them had been packaged but never really worried about it at the time and sold them at the same price a lose figures

so i did not do anything wrong , its no different then the collectors that have bought and sold these figures over the last 20 years they did not know like my self there was anything wrong with these figures ether .

i have not done anything that is underhand or wrong in any way.

i hope that clear this up for you

jason

Time for me to be the ******* that says what at least half of the people here are thinking right now..... Jason, when you bought the Fetts and Snowys you even have said that you knew the bubbles weren't "right" and you knew that the 25,000 other items were unsealed cardbacks and bubbles....... and DIDN'T think that there was something wrong with selling these figures that you had bought that the seals didn't seem right on?.. But you sold them along anyway....... You show up at a toy fair with some pieces that were supposedly from Toni, but are far worse than any of other things we've seen from him, after you'd claimed to have sold off everything else that could connect you to that situation...... It all seems a bit like a calculated revenge **** if you ask me. I'm past the point of thinking that Toni's 100% innocent of something wrong, but I'm definitely not convinced that you're being 100% honest either.

Cheers
Joe

 

[V1Elite]

Hey Guys,

Nice to meet everyone! I'm new to this forum but I got wind of this issue last night via the RS Forums and immediately came over to see if there had been any new developments. I read the entire thread from page 1 and I have to say, this whole situation sickens me. I am so sorry to everyone who was affected by this *******. I can't even begin to imagine what you guys are going through. I know me saying this does nothing to help ease the pain but the people who are truly involved in this community and passionate about the hobby will remember the largest distribution fraud in history which in itself might add some additional value to those items. I sincerely hope there is some resolution that leads to this guy behind bars.

I was at Star Wars Celebration in Orlando, FL last year and was approached by a guy selling an AFA 90 Palitoy Boba Fett for $600 USD , claiming that he "Just needed to sell it". Something about it was shady from the beginning - Why would some guy I just met be offering the item at such a low price in a room full of collectors, looking to pay top dollar for some immaculate pieces? As I looked closer, something about the seal on the bubble just didn't look right to me so I passed on the offer. A year later this happens and it makes me wonder if perhaps this Toni guy had other distribution channels or partners that knew exactly what they were selling? The product I turned down was definitely among the items being questioned throughout this thread, moral being, we need to alert as many people as possible about this fraud so this Toni guy doesn't simply move his operation elsewhere and start this mess all over again.

Another thing I have noticed while reading through 94 pages of replies is that a lot of people are questioning the Authenticity of AFA and UKG after an incident like this and I don't blame you, but if this guy was supposedly manufacturing these things since the mid 80's using authentic card backs, bubbles, and figures then AFA and UKG would be using those pieces as a benchmark for quality standards rather then wondering why they are so crisp. This ******* literally created the market for these things using error and overstock cards and because they had become so plentiful by the time AFA went into business, you have to assume that they thought nothing of it, because they were only comparing it to other versions created by the same person.

Anyways, that's my take on the situation up until now and thanks again for having me on here guys!

- Jeff