Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Dark Sith Lord]

Hi Escapist. It was Rob (robsolo32) who posted that link.

Those at Vectis were part of Lee Coopers collection (Lee77) who I know for a fact brought a large amount of his pieces from Toni. I am sure some of the other guys could confirm this. He isnt currently collecting.but I will contact him and make aware of this thread and see if he knows any more information that could benefit this thread.

 

[escapist]

I've just thought of something perhaps worth mentioning - I and other people have bought all kinds of figures from Toni direct through his website, yet for as long as I can remember the only figures he ever sells regularly on eBay are Hoth Troppers and C-3PO. The odd random figure and quite a few years ago lots of Palitoy Luke Bespin's, but rarely anything else. But we know for a fact he has sold dozens of the same German MOCs just from our own collections. So why never on eBay?

He has sold (or at least recieved feedback) for 18 German MOCs in the past 5 years on ebay. Bit odd.

 

[kraftdermacht]

Hi, I finally registered to SWF to give some input. I run the German GM 45 web page at Raumhafen.de http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/sho...wars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German ESB Figures It was mentioned in the thread before.

I still have all the GM figures I bought from Toni in 2000-2003. I bought all singles he offered and have the lists and dates of purchase. I have also several of the figures on card that were not offered by him like Luke. And I have most GM card backs loose that are definitely from childhood collections to compare. I will finally take these out tonight.

To you detectives out there (Matthias, Jason Palitoy, ...) Anything I should check to add to the picture?

Wolfgang

 

[wbobafett]

What we need is a database! I said it now a hundred times!

I could gather a few questionable and original Bossk card images, but we will need more!

IMO if you search
- for certain bubbles you will fail! There was defintely different ones used!
- for certain figures you will fail! There was also digfferent ones used. In the beginning there was mainly overtsock figures used: lightblue Fett, PBP Bossk and so on!

Has anyone ever seen a lightblue Fett on alitoy 45C or 65D used??? Anyone?? Imo these were later produced. IMO these shouldn't exist on Plaitoy 45C or 65Ds....and IMO these could be very well from overstock (because they are simply late produced!)


Anyway....just on ebay...check it out and let me know what you think. Would that card have passed QC???

PS: I will be away soon for two weeks, but will gladly help on all figure questions regarding COO and so on after Christmas!

I btw noticed sometimes too much flaws on those (lightblue Fetts and PBP Bossks)....anyone ever saw a 12back with figures inside that had 10 or so paintrubs???

Just asking what is normal to those....of course the one or the other damage can happen, but inks, rubs and dirt all in on place and multiple times???

 

[robsolo32]

Yeah, sorry I didn't post the link over here on this forum. I figured most of us are viewing all three (SWFUK, TIG, RS). I'm actually new on this forum even though I've been aware of it for a couple of years.

I have a tough enough time keeping up with one forum, usually RS.

Anyways, after reading through these threads I went back through Vectis' auction and feel a few of them are questionable. The ROTJ Brown Snake Yoda is quite interesting as the the figure and bubble both received 90s, but the card was a 75????

I don't collect Palitoy/German carded figs, but trying to help where I can.

Rob

 

[wbobafett]

Hi, I finally registered to SWF to give some input. I run the German GM 45 web page at Raumhafen.de http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/sho...wars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German ESB Figures It was mentioned in the thread before.

I still have all the GM figures I bought from Toni in 2000-2003. I bought all singles he offered and have the lists and dates of purchase. I have also several of the figures on card that were not offered by him like Luke. And I have most GM card backs loose that are definitely from childhood collections to compare. I will finally take these out tonight.

To you detectives out there (Matthias, Jason Palitoy, ...) Anything I should check to add to the picture?

Wolfgang

Hey Wolfgang!

Please check your Luke Farmboy! This is also a PBP (late) figure! I never saw one on a German card before! :O

Anyway....i would check for print errors and "wavy" seals! This is IMO the key! If you check out the Palitoy vid from the sealing process from the bubble and card: ther is not much movement left! If the bubbles are not really in place or have wavey inner lines they are fake IMO. You can see that a form is used where the bubbles are placed in! So a wavey seal is simply not possible....only if you seal them by hand!

Just my 2 cents..

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Just text Lee. Will let you know if he add anything to the thread

 

[ace]

Some of his trilogos are amazing too yet i once traded him a recarded yak face which he sold on as a recarded yak face instead of taking fiure from recard and putting it on a fresh backer.

Still dont know what to believe though.

nor Arthur or Toni ever had Yaks cards or lose figures, that i would have remembered so they are not suspect.

j

 

[escapist]

Yeah, sorry I didn't post the link over here on this forum. I figured most of us are viewing all three (SWFUK, TIG, RS). I'm actually new on this forum even though I've been aware of it for a couple of years.

I have a tough enough time keeping up with one forum, usually RS.

Anyways, after reading through these threads I went back through Vectis' auction and feel a few of them are questionable. The ROTJ Brown Snake Yoda is quite interesting as the the figure and bubble both received 90s, but the card was a 75????

I don't collect Palitoy/German carded figs, but trying to help where I can.

Rob

All good mate. Sorry I didn't credit you. Good spot though as it has great quality photos!

This is all coming together nicely. We are certainly going to hit 100 by tomorrow morning......

 

[robsolo32]

Yeah, sorry I didn't post the link over here on this forum. I figured most of us are viewing all three (SWFUK, TIG, RS). I'm actually new on this forum even though I've been aware of it for a couple of years.

I have a tough enough time keeping up with one forum, usually RS.

Anyways, after reading through these threads I went back through Vectis' auction and feel a few of them are questionable. The ROTJ Brown Snake Yoda is quite interesting as the the figure and bubble both received 90s, but the card was a 75????

I don't collect Palitoy/German carded figs, but trying to help where I can.

Rob

All good mate. Sorry I didn't credit you. Good spot though as it has great quality photos!

This is all coming together nicely. We are certainly going to hit 100 by tomorrow morning......

Thanks escapist! Though, I never look for credit..just happy to help!

Yeah, this thread is quite large. I agree with the others, though, a dedicated thread for evidence only (pics and discussion) is necessary.

Rob

 

[Lafos]

To you detectives out there (Matthias, Jason Palitoy, ...) Anything I should check to add to the picture?

Wolfgang

Nice to see you chime in.

It would be great to know what "store offered" GM 45 backs you have in your childhood collection.


- Thorsten -

 

[lee gray]

As stated in an earlier post, several 45 back fetts i got from tony had a red blob next to chewbaccas arm, yet searching through images i have found some without the red mark, so could this be the quality control issue again ?

and red blob on this afa graded one

 

[Caswellbot]

Well done Lee. Thats a very useful insight potentially

 

[Joe]

Was the one without the red mark near Chewie a used cardback or one with a price sticker Lee?

Wolff raises a really good point: Has anyone ever seen a Palitoy Fett with a store sticker? Now that I think about it..I never have :?

 

[lee gray]

it was from a carded figure with no sticker

Just checking i see the back of the 45 back lobot has the same red blob but looking at other 45 backs like luke bespin and the stormtrooper, they dont have it

 

[Lee77]

I've been pointed in the direction of this thread by Liam. As most people know, I sold up a couple of months back so don't have any mocs left to take pictures.

I've only skimmed through the thread so my thoughts on this might change when I read it all later.

Regarding Toni, because he had a good reputation, once I'd bought a few bits from him and they'd graded we'll, I just use to get them sent straight to the graders so never really examined them closely. If he said something was c8.5 then I knew it would be fine. I even remember (and I have the email) joking to him that they were so good it's as if they were factory fresh. How ironic!
Looking back, I remember asking for a brown haired Luke and U/P knee Fett once. He said that he didn't have any but might be able to get some. About a month later he got one of each for me, case fresh. Now, that seems odd, but then it was accepted that most of his mocs were mint. ..........too mint maybe!?

There's a few things that are bothering me about some of my old mocs since reading this thread, but i feel the mocs that were shown at Ff4 are pretty much irrelevant IMO. it looks like stevie wonder sealed them. I'd be very surprised if these came from Toni, and I'm even more surprised that JJ has hung on to them for this long. Something don't ring right. None of the mocs I had, showed iron marks on the card or the twin stem area.

I had 2 Luke blonde hair jedi mocs. The figures on these were totally different which surprised me. I know nothing about loose variants but the skin and hair were different colours on both as we're the trousers. The only other difference was the bubbles. One was regular square palitoy, the other twin stem. At the time, I didn't think too much of it as they came from Toni, but now I'm not sure. Pictures are still on vectis.

The fact that all of the Leia boush and lando skiff cards he sells are in the long bubbles rather than the ones where the helmet is seperate. Has anybody ever seen one of these with that bubble and a shop price tag? I know I haven't. Could this be because he doesn't have that bubble available?

Regarding Lee Grays point about a purple spot near Chewbacca on the 65 cardback. I don't think this links it to Toni. I had cards that were from childhood collections that had the same mark on the back. There doesn't appear to be any pattern on which this spot appears. It's definitely on cards that weren't from Toni and had price stickers on. Ill look at pictures later and try to figure out if there is a pattern to it.

Also, whilst the marks on the front of the C3P0 may all link these to Toni, I'm not convinced 100% that it means these were QC reject cards. These were toys, not collectibles in the 80's and I think QC would have been more for the figures. The packaging was never really that important as it would have been thrown away. Besides, QC at palitoy werent the best. Look at all the miscards that got out!
IMO the pink spot near chewy on the 65 backs looks worse than the c3p0 one, and that made it through QC. This is just my opinion though. I see Matthias has compared them and his opinion probably carries more weight.

Lastly, all of Toni's palitoy and GM Yoda mocs all have strange printing marks on the front. If you look at the one I sold, its got specks on the front, which look like factory errors. If the rumours are true about QC card rejects being used, Yoda ones look most suspect. That's why it graded 75. Because of the printing issues.

Btw, there's been some great detective work on here. If this is all true (and its looking more and more likely) it will be worse for Palitoy moc collecting than anything that billy boy ever did

I've emailed Toni to ask him outright whats gone on.

Lee

Btw, I've got a picture of a GM Han original somewhere that I used to own with a twin stem bubble. Ill look for it later.

 

[itfciain]

Great post Lee - really hope that you don't have any comeback from your sales

We now have another example of figures being out of stock one week and then miraculously available a few weeks later - we aren't talking loose figure here or even regular beater MOCs - these were clearly made to order

 

[mr_palitoy]

Makes sense. Now, is there any reason why the ebay buying account is not publicly known? A lot of research can be done on that.

I'm still waiting to know what the ebay id. If I'd been told when it was found I may have been able to gain some insight before the selling history was made private.
This information needs to be shared, otherwise people won't be able to see the bigger picture.

Joe, have PMd you several times for this over the last few days.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

It's a good idea Joe, starting a fresh thread with just facts is something I've already considered and have had suggested, but the problem is there aren't too many facts yet. A "how to spot a <insert scammers name here> fake MOC" thread will be very useful once it's all been confirmed.

I agree with your point about matching recent sales though - are there no eBay tools that show sales history any more?

We have too many threads as it is, I'd stick with just this one on SWFUK for now.

cheers Jason

 

[Richard_H]

Joe doesn't use pm Jason. Is that the one from the screenshot in the other thread?

 

[Caswellbot]

Good to see your post Lee and I hope you're well mate. You have definitely raised a few good issues.

With regards to the pics I took at farthest from 4 of the mocs jj brought along, they are helpful in so far as they do show that someone was trying to hone their skills in sealing these. It is obviously likely that over the years someone might get a lot better at it and the results now are going to be far superior to the early attempts. With the rise of the internet and forums it is unlikely that you would get away with dodgy seals like the ones we saw on sunday.
That said, other examples like sandtrooper-5's hoth trooper go to show that they are out there in peoples collections.

Chris

 

[itfciain]

Joe has posted the eBay ID in the other thread - this is it with the 30 odd name changes

http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=t489ab

 

[Joe]

Joe doesn't use pm Jason. Is that the one from the screenshot in the other thread?

No he messaged me on FB I just forgot to send it to him :lol:

It is indeed in the screenshot for all to see.

Jason - there might be loads of threads but they are all discussing this thread which itself has turned into an 80+ pager. It's becoming increasingly hard to keep track of what's going on and information is being lost in the process..

The other thread I've just set up is purely so people can quickly look at one thread, one post and say "ok I know what to look for and I know what is suspicious".

 

[mr_palitoy]

Hi, I finally registered to SWF to give some input. I run the German GM 45 web page at Raumhafen.de http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/sho...wars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German ESB Figures It was mentioned in the thread before.

I still have all the GM figures I bought from Toni in 2000-2003. I bought all singles he offered and have the lists and dates of purchase. I have also several of the figures on card that were not offered by him like Luke. And I have most GM card backs loose that are definitely from childhood collections to compare. I will finally take these out tonight.

To you detectives out there (Matthias, Jason Palitoy, ...) Anything I should check to add to the picture?

Wolfgang

Hi Wolfgang, great to see you on here.

Your website touches on Toni (not by name) and the skew in rarity as a result of the GM MOCs he has been banging out over the years.
Most of these have the english text on the back, though a few do not. Michael from hell has also said a few of the ones with english text on
the back made it to market in Germany. Your insight here would be very helpful.

I do think its very telling that between us (about 75 cardbacks), not one has the english text on the back).

I have one German 2-1b single stem I bought directly from Toni, the seal looks pretty good.

I also have a German 2-1b double stem I believe originated from Toni which I bought from Chesunt. Looks pretty good too.

As for looking for printing errors, I don't think there are any or many on the GM cards, they were
rejected because of the English text on the back, unlike the Palitoy cards which failed QC due
to printing errors.

Good luck finding anything that can be of help!

cheers Jason

 

[Joe]

Oh and just to be clear, the feedback of the second account was actually always private, so you didn't miss any golden opportunity there.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Joe has posted the eBay ID in the other thread - this is it with the 30 odd name changes

http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=t489ab

Which other thread?

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Joe has posted the eBay ID in the other thread - this is it with the 30 odd name changes

http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=t489ab

Jesus, those 30 random user names certainly look like someone who dosen't want their identity on ebay found out,.



Jason

 

[itfciain]

Joe has posted the eBay ID in the other thread - this is it with the 30 odd name changes

http://contact.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ReturnUserIdHistory&requested=t489ab

Which other thread?

cheers Jason

This one - http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18756

 

[ace]

hi Joe did you say you have put up a new thread ?

if you are going to i do think we need to run the fest post by at least a few of us just so its correct we have all come a very long way and we do not want to get it wrong or saying in a way that its not clear, there is way to much confusion already .

that first post will go viral with all card collectors , i am happy to read it before it is put up , Jason are you agreed we need a clear post in a new thread ?

things are still moving very fast on here still

jason

 

[Joe]

You are all welcome to give your views on what needs to be included and what doesn't need to be, I will actively edit and monitor that thread to make sure everything that is included in the first post is either fact or includes information that is deemed important to the discussion.