Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.
- Thread starter Grant_C
- Start date
JuniorChubb said:
Precisely. Without JJ's list there is nothing. I'm just wondering what it would mean exactly if these cards could definitely be placed as having been in Toni's possession :!: I mean this is what this whole thread is getting at isn't it. People want to know. But once people do know, then what? Hopefully the outcome is good news for collectors. I really hope that.
I have been reading up on this the last few days ....
Don't know what to belive ... but whay are peopel not talking about the Clipper and Trilogo cards Toni has on his site ?
I have had a Clipper WBG and GM both looked very cool , did not get them from Toni . And have sold them off since.
Here are a picture of the GM moc . Don't have of the back http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/media/MOC%20Figs/limelight003.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12
I have found some GM cardbacks in danish child hood collections . I always ask the sellers if it is child hood stuff .
And the sellers have no reasones to lie as it is just normal people i buy from .
Below are two german Danger cards with the palitoy sticker on the back . They have no price stickers on them .
But note the have a difrent color blue on the card , and both have double stem bobbels ....
But there are also a German Red Snag with german price sticker on the back
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/library/German%20etc%20cardbacks?sort=3&page=1
Close up of one of the cards
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/library/Palitoy%20cardbacks%20german?sort=3&page=1
The same cards in another picture .. i also thing the Gredo are german ... but sold it have to ask the buyer
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/media/star%20wars%20sale%202012/morLego008_zps1addb6ad.jpg.html?sort=6&o=45
The CB are from two collections , one of the guys told me he went to live with his dad in the UK for a year and got some of the stuff there .
It is not so rare to find cb with german price stickers in ch collections here in denmark . As many danish families went on vecations in germany .
Also as to what where sold at the end of 1980's look at this post about the big sw blow out sale in denmark 1987 . There where alot of difrent stuff sold .. .. read it here
http://trilogo.info/features/faetter-br-the-great-danish-trilogo-sale/
Don't know what to belive ... but whay are peopel not talking about the Clipper and Trilogo cards Toni has on his site ?
I have had a Clipper WBG and GM both looked very cool , did not get them from Toni . And have sold them off since.
Here are a picture of the GM moc . Don't have of the back http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/media/MOC%20Figs/limelight003.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12
I have found some GM cardbacks in danish child hood collections . I always ask the sellers if it is child hood stuff .
And the sellers have no reasones to lie as it is just normal people i buy from .
Below are two german Danger cards with the palitoy sticker on the back . They have no price stickers on them .
But note the have a difrent color blue on the card , and both have double stem bobbels ....
But there are also a German Red Snag with german price sticker on the back
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/library/German%20etc%20cardbacks?sort=3&page=1
Close up of one of the cards
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/library/Palitoy%20cardbacks%20german?sort=3&page=1
The same cards in another picture .. i also thing the Gredo are german ... but sold it have to ask the buyer
http://s222.photobucket.com/user/sorenarndal/media/star%20wars%20sale%202012/morLego008_zps1addb6ad.jpg.html?sort=6&o=45
The CB are from two collections , one of the guys told me he went to live with his dad in the UK for a year and got some of the stuff there .
It is not so rare to find cb with german price stickers in ch collections here in denmark . As many danish families went on vecations in germany .
Also as to what where sold at the end of 1980's look at this post about the big sw blow out sale in denmark 1987 . There where alot of difrent stuff sold .. .. read it here
http://trilogo.info/features/faetter-br-the-great-danish-trilogo-sale/
jimbody1
Padawan
Even with jj's list there's nothing, all it will prove is that at some point there was unused cards and bubbles for sale by a guy called Arthur and that's only if they're on the list as such. That's it. As ive said before unless Toni has written on jj's list saying I bought these there's still no proof he did. No one has yet said yes I gave him a hand to pick them up so I know Toni bought them. Its plain speculation to think or say anything else.
escapist
Jedi Knight
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2013
- Messages
- 455
You guys bring out the detective in me. Though I don't know what I'm doing....
Anyway, it was mentioned previously about the COO variants and the implications of this, but what about orange and brown snakes....
From my trawl, one thing that interested me was the this Toytoni page from 2008 that lists two different coloured Yoda snakes on the German 45 back for sale at the same time:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080325021244/http://homepage.ntlworld.com/antoni.emchowicz/EUROPEAN.htm
Unfortunately, the pics are not captured by the Wayback machine....
I'm no Yoda expert (hell I'm no expert at any of this ****!). But how likely is it that the Palitoy factory would have been knocking out both orange and brown snakes and sticking them on 45 back German cards?
A Google image search of 45 back Yoda's brought to interesting images from well known sources and I started compiling these pictures on this post, but I then realised I could be shitting on someones pride and joy so I deleted it. Needless to say, I found four images of Yoda German 45 backs, from 4 different sources, with 2 different snakes on each. One was confirmed as coming from Toy Toni. I have no idea where the rest came.
Anyway, it was mentioned previously about the COO variants and the implications of this, but what about orange and brown snakes....
From my trawl, one thing that interested me was the this Toytoni page from 2008 that lists two different coloured Yoda snakes on the German 45 back for sale at the same time:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080325021244/http://homepage.ntlworld.com/antoni.emchowicz/EUROPEAN.htm
Unfortunately, the pics are not captured by the Wayback machine....
I'm no Yoda expert (hell I'm no expert at any of this ****!). But how likely is it that the Palitoy factory would have been knocking out both orange and brown snakes and sticking them on 45 back German cards?
A Google image search of 45 back Yoda's brought to interesting images from well known sources and I started compiling these pictures on this post, but I then realised I could be shitting on someones pride and joy so I deleted it. Needless to say, I found four images of Yoda German 45 backs, from 4 different sources, with 2 different snakes on each. One was confirmed as coming from Toy Toni. I have no idea where the rest came.
After reading all this that's kind of what I thought. As interesting as it is, if any of this did happen and the person who bought the cards is reading then there's no way on earth they would (or maybe even should) own up. I think absolute proof would be mega, possibly even John Myatt master art forger mega. Possibly not. But definitely big for collectors.
Richard_H
Grand Master
That's right Mathias - our mods are quite lazy really.
:lol:
:lol:
Dublinjeff
Grand Master
Having spent the last 1hr 45 mins reading this thread from start to finish :| I reckon I'm entitled to a quick post. Not knowing Jason and having never bought an item from Toni I'm completely impartial on this matter.
A lot of what Jason appears to be saying is 'hearsay' and this has been well pointed out. If you have hard evidence of a stockpile of cards etc, just show people and be done with it, constant shouts of 'he did, he did..." just get tiring!
Now, Mr.TT....... :? Jury's out...there's just something though that isn't sitting right?? Can't say what it is, but..something.
If this is true I agree it is a big deal. I definitely think there is a massive difference between " original factory sealed" and something knocked together at a later date with the sum of the parts :? That's my view anyway, and if I had paid money for something sold that way I wouldn't be a happy camper.
Absolutely fascinating thread to read through, great insight into the whole "dealer" side of collecting.
A lot of what Jason appears to be saying is 'hearsay' and this has been well pointed out. If you have hard evidence of a stockpile of cards etc, just show people and be done with it, constant shouts of 'he did, he did..." just get tiring!
Now, Mr.TT....... :? Jury's out...there's just something though that isn't sitting right?? Can't say what it is, but..something.
If this is true I agree it is a big deal. I definitely think there is a massive difference between " original factory sealed" and something knocked together at a later date with the sum of the parts :? That's my view anyway, and if I had paid money for something sold that way I wouldn't be a happy camper.
Absolutely fascinating thread to read through, great insight into the whole "dealer" side of collecting.
James Simmonds
Padawan
I've read this thread with great interest and although I haven't posted much before, I thought I would share my experiences about the topics that have been discussed over the past few days.
I've collected Star Wars memorabilia since 1980, firstly as a child and then continuously as a collector since the late 1980s up to the present day. I've attended many, many collectors fair (or swap meets as they used to be called in the late 80s), Star Wars conventions and written articles about Star Wars for many fan publications and magazines such as SFX and Model & Collectors Mart. In 1989, I co-wrote 'The UK Star Wars Memorabilia Guide' fanzine with fellow collector Stephen Nelmes and that led me to become a writer for the UK Star Wars Fan Club – which is how I first got to know Jason Joiner, who ran the club. I first met him in person at a toy fair in Leicester in 1990 and then at many other events over the next few years. During that time I purchased several items from him and traded a few pieces as well and found Jason to be a great guy who I never had any problems with at all. I even got to see one of the well-known grey limbed Hoth Stormtroopers that Jason had at a fair in Oadby back in 1991. As a result, I can confirm that these figures do exist and are not a fan made pieces. The limbs were the same coloured plastic as those on the AT-AT Driver and not painted like I've heard many collectors state over the years.
Anyway, fast forward to 1996 and I'm at one of Jason's events in Cheshunt with my old school friend Chris (who was also a collector at the time). As I'm looking through what seems like hundreds of carded mini action figures on a stall that belongs to Jason I spy a carded ROTJ Palitoy Boba Fett with a £30 price tag on it. I had to do a double take at the price because even back then that price was bargain for a hard to find mini figure, so I immediately ask to buy it. Instead of handing me the Fett that is on display, the guy behind the stall reaches down and pulls out a small box which he opens up to reveal at least half a dozen or so other carded Palitoy Fetts. He hands me one and I pay for it then I go on my way feeling very happy with my purchase. At that moment I just assumed that they were the remainder of a warehouse find of old stock or something like that. However, later on in the day, I'm back in the dealer room and happen to notice that Jason is now behind his stall. As I wander over to take another look at the carded pieces that he has for sale (I was really tempted to buy an ESB Kenner Luke Bespin that was £60), I overhear the guy running the stall saying to Jason that the Fetts were selling like hot cakes. Jason then proceeded to tell him that the Fetts were made up of unused factory bubbles and cards that had been stuck together recently. Well, you can imagine how shocked I felt and it really put a damper on what was otherwise a fantastic day out. Looking back, I should have asked for my money back at the time because I felt ripped off but there you go.
Over the years, I've often wondered how many of the other Fetts sold at this event were still in collectors hands and presumed to be the real deal. Perhaps some of them have even been graded by AFA or UKG? Although I no longer own the figure (I took it off the card a year or so after buying it and gave it to my young cousin when he became interested in Star Wars films following the 1997 re-release) the bubble seal looked fine to me and I would have been none the wiser if I hadn't have overheard Jason's conversation. So, maybe the Fetts were left over from the large amount that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread that he sold to fellow collector Craig Stevens? Why weren't they being sold as cobbled together instead of factory sealed? Perhaps Jason can shed some light on this for me?
Despite this one incident, I still think Jason is a credit to our hobby. Yes, I've heard all of the stories and rumours about him that many others have, but remember that he kept Star Wars fandom in the public eye through the UK fan club and various events at a time when most people just thought that the films and their related toys should be left behind in the 1980s. The vintage hobby would be a different place today without him. So, credit where credit is due.
As far as the Toni thing goes, I'm still on the fence about it. If there has been any post Palitoy assembly of the figures, has anyone considered the possibility that the bubbles have simply been stuck on with some kind of glue? I've purchased a few carded Palitoy figures from Toni over the years (they've always arrived parcelled up in empty wine boxes) but have never had any reason to query their authenticity. He used to advertise them for sale in Model & Collectors Mart for years so I assumed that he had purchased stacks of them decades ago when Palitoy shut up shop. Back in the late 80s, market stalls in the town I grew up in had cases of the little figures for sale as did many discount shops. Three carded mini figures for £1 anyone? That's how tri-logo Paploo, Lumat and Emperor found their way into my collection.
Sorry that this post has gone on a bit but I just wanted to share my story with everyone in light has what has transpired over the last few days. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the end.
James.
I've collected Star Wars memorabilia since 1980, firstly as a child and then continuously as a collector since the late 1980s up to the present day. I've attended many, many collectors fair (or swap meets as they used to be called in the late 80s), Star Wars conventions and written articles about Star Wars for many fan publications and magazines such as SFX and Model & Collectors Mart. In 1989, I co-wrote 'The UK Star Wars Memorabilia Guide' fanzine with fellow collector Stephen Nelmes and that led me to become a writer for the UK Star Wars Fan Club – which is how I first got to know Jason Joiner, who ran the club. I first met him in person at a toy fair in Leicester in 1990 and then at many other events over the next few years. During that time I purchased several items from him and traded a few pieces as well and found Jason to be a great guy who I never had any problems with at all. I even got to see one of the well-known grey limbed Hoth Stormtroopers that Jason had at a fair in Oadby back in 1991. As a result, I can confirm that these figures do exist and are not a fan made pieces. The limbs were the same coloured plastic as those on the AT-AT Driver and not painted like I've heard many collectors state over the years.
Anyway, fast forward to 1996 and I'm at one of Jason's events in Cheshunt with my old school friend Chris (who was also a collector at the time). As I'm looking through what seems like hundreds of carded mini action figures on a stall that belongs to Jason I spy a carded ROTJ Palitoy Boba Fett with a £30 price tag on it. I had to do a double take at the price because even back then that price was bargain for a hard to find mini figure, so I immediately ask to buy it. Instead of handing me the Fett that is on display, the guy behind the stall reaches down and pulls out a small box which he opens up to reveal at least half a dozen or so other carded Palitoy Fetts. He hands me one and I pay for it then I go on my way feeling very happy with my purchase. At that moment I just assumed that they were the remainder of a warehouse find of old stock or something like that. However, later on in the day, I'm back in the dealer room and happen to notice that Jason is now behind his stall. As I wander over to take another look at the carded pieces that he has for sale (I was really tempted to buy an ESB Kenner Luke Bespin that was £60), I overhear the guy running the stall saying to Jason that the Fetts were selling like hot cakes. Jason then proceeded to tell him that the Fetts were made up of unused factory bubbles and cards that had been stuck together recently. Well, you can imagine how shocked I felt and it really put a damper on what was otherwise a fantastic day out. Looking back, I should have asked for my money back at the time because I felt ripped off but there you go.
Over the years, I've often wondered how many of the other Fetts sold at this event were still in collectors hands and presumed to be the real deal. Perhaps some of them have even been graded by AFA or UKG? Although I no longer own the figure (I took it off the card a year or so after buying it and gave it to my young cousin when he became interested in Star Wars films following the 1997 re-release) the bubble seal looked fine to me and I would have been none the wiser if I hadn't have overheard Jason's conversation. So, maybe the Fetts were left over from the large amount that Jason mentioned earlier in this thread that he sold to fellow collector Craig Stevens? Why weren't they being sold as cobbled together instead of factory sealed? Perhaps Jason can shed some light on this for me?
Despite this one incident, I still think Jason is a credit to our hobby. Yes, I've heard all of the stories and rumours about him that many others have, but remember that he kept Star Wars fandom in the public eye through the UK fan club and various events at a time when most people just thought that the films and their related toys should be left behind in the 1980s. The vintage hobby would be a different place today without him. So, credit where credit is due.
As far as the Toni thing goes, I'm still on the fence about it. If there has been any post Palitoy assembly of the figures, has anyone considered the possibility that the bubbles have simply been stuck on with some kind of glue? I've purchased a few carded Palitoy figures from Toni over the years (they've always arrived parcelled up in empty wine boxes) but have never had any reason to query their authenticity. He used to advertise them for sale in Model & Collectors Mart for years so I assumed that he had purchased stacks of them decades ago when Palitoy shut up shop. Back in the late 80s, market stalls in the town I grew up in had cases of the little figures for sale as did many discount shops. Three carded mini figures for £1 anyone? That's how tri-logo Paploo, Lumat and Emperor found their way into my collection.
Sorry that this post has gone on a bit but I just wanted to share my story with everyone in light has what has transpired over the last few days. It will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the end.
James.
M_Rendahl said:
Hi Mattias .
Søren here . I have seen at least one of the rotj palitoy " proofs" / unused card backs . It was AFA gradet , so you should be able to track it there , I think it was another swede that owned it .... he maybe had a acbar focus ?
The thing about stuf sent back and forth is possible. I have a kenner ESB rebel soldier with acbar offer , on the back it has the palitoy acbar offer sticker and it was sold in danish fatter BR ...
I have been thinking... did palitoy get the moc or did they just get the CB from kenner and just put on the figure them self ?
jedisearcher
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,450
x-pack said:
Smoking gun? This thread is more lile the frickin' alamo!!
I don't think the list proves much in itself. People who believe JJ will believe more, people who don't will doubt its authenticity.
The things that worry me:
There seems little doubt that a shedload of cardbacks and bubbles existed, so if they didn't get carded later where the hell are they now? They'd were valuable back in the day so they wouldn't have ended up in landfill, and they're even more valuable now. Hard to believe they haven't surfaced in some other form by now. Also, where's the rest of the GM stuff these days? I stopped bothering to collect GM stuff when I realised that it was quite rare on ebay etc., and others have said the same.
It's also really wierd that all this supposed factory over-stock is on ESB cards. The back story seems to be that these carded figures sat in Leicester (or somewhere) until it all shut down. Now read that again.
Figures that kids were fighting over, and toy shops were screaming down the phone at sales reps for, were sitting in a factory, taking up considerable space while the world went Star Wars crazy. This was ESB time, not end of the line POTF stock. Over-stock? There was no such thing. I'd only thought about it recently, but surely as all that craziness went on (and it really did, I worked in my Mum and Dads toy shop and remember it well) they'd have stripped the figures are recarded them on highly sellable ROTJ cards. We know the packing cases came with ROTJ and ESB and SW issue figures, but wouldn't have let German text cards go out on Palitoy vans. If they were carded onto GM cards during the ESB run I can't see any way they'd have survived the ROTJ boom wherever they were stored, or whoever had them. I know lots of overstock has surfaced over time, but we must be talking about 200+ boxes of the stuff.
The GM Cardbacks are very different though. I can easily see those sitting unassembled in a storeroom somewhere - they'd have been worth little to Palitoy at that time. I can easily see those surfacing later in the 80's once it all closed down.
The possible odd COO's on GM/Palitoy cards is really worrying. It would be so easy for someone to incorrectly miss the significance of the COO on some minty loose figures they bought cheap in the late 80's/early 90's and then recarded them not knowing that 20 years later people would more fully understand the proper matches of COO/cardbacks etc.
I'm not saying Toni is at fault here. It's entirely possible he bought a load of carded ESB figures from what he thought was a legit source, and the sealing process has everyone stumped for now and adds credence to that version of events, but there's just too many question marks hanging over any of those GM/Palitoy 45 backs.
jedisearcher
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2012
- Messages
- 1,450
Re: what James Simmonds said.
So JJ potentially sold to Arthur who potentially sold to Toni? :shock:
I'd (JJ) probably be madly deflecting blame to another person (Toni) if I wanted that to remain hidden ...
Wow ... too much speculation and he said/I saw to make any sense of this.
So JJ potentially sold to Arthur who potentially sold to Toni? :shock:
I'd (JJ) probably be madly deflecting blame to another person (Toni) if I wanted that to remain hidden ...
Wow ... too much speculation and he said/I saw to make any sense of this.
Dublinjeff
Grand Master
.[/quote]
Smoking gun? This thread is more lile the frickin' alamo!! ...... :wink: but there's just too many question marks hanging over any of those GM/Palitoy 45 backs.[/quote]
:lol: :lol:
That sums it up perfectly, if Jason has any proof just show it......if Toni didn't do what is alleged just say so, "I 100%, didn't buy a number of cardbacks and put mint figures on them"'...it's the whole situation of 'ambiguous' replies, non-committal answers that leaves everyone wondering.
If there is a flat out denial on here that this took place and then that is found to be false, it at least leaves everyone with a better understanding of what took place....?
Smoking gun? This thread is more lile the frickin' alamo!!
...... :wink: but there's just too many question marks hanging over any of those GM/Palitoy 45 backs.[/quote]:lol: :lol:
That sums it up perfectly, if Jason has any proof just show it......if Toni didn't do what is alleged just say so, "I 100%, didn't buy a number of cardbacks and put mint figures on them"'...it's the whole situation of 'ambiguous' replies, non-committal answers that leaves everyone wondering.
If there is a flat out denial on here that this took place and then that is found to be false, it at least leaves everyone with a better understanding of what took place....?
James Simmonds said:
I have a twin stem Palitoy Boba Fett that I bought off Toytoni in November 1996.
Jason- you say that you keep history of all your transactions. If we can have a look at any details of your Cheshunt transactions and any pictures you have we could compare them.
In my time I have purchased atleast 5 ROTJ light blue fetts from toytoni plus atleast 8 more I purchased already graded, many times the bubble glue did look slightly smudged, like in this picture here if you check the right hand fett at the bottom of the bubble its all type of misty and thats not flash, quite a few were like it and i always wondered why i saw this alot on the palitoy fetts but not on other palitoys
spoons
Grand Master
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 8,318
Very interesting comments from James, I think it's getting more difficult to ignore that these cards may not be factory sealed.
The focus has so far been on the German cards as they are easiest to spot, but if the stockpile of cardbacks included Pal ESB and ROTJ cardbacks there will be no way of working out what is legit or not.
Final frontier toys emailed their Xmas sales through today. What's the true price of these admittedly overpriced AFA German and Pal cards?
http://www.finalfrontiertoys.com/starwars.html?cat=54
Edit
I'd not seen those Fetts close up before Lee - what card back are they as that is a big bubble. Presumably late ones not 45s?
The focus has so far been on the German cards as they are easiest to spot, but if the stockpile of cardbacks included Pal ESB and ROTJ cardbacks there will be no way of working out what is legit or not.
Final frontier toys emailed their Xmas sales through today. What's the true price of these admittedly overpriced AFA German and Pal cards?
http://www.finalfrontiertoys.com/starwars.html?cat=54
Edit
I'd not seen those Fetts close up before Lee - what card back are they as that is a big bubble. Presumably late ones not 45s?
