Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[PIGCITY]

I agree with Jay on this, the dealers who knew of the situation or had any suspicions years ago and said nothing whilst these continued to change hands.should hang their heads in shame. The damage this has caused the collecting scene is irreparable.

 

[Joe]

Craig, this is totally unrelated to the Toni matter but did you try to sell your R2 collection on ebay once using the same pictures as the ones on your flickr account? I seem to remember seeing it for sale somewhere before!

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have a similar Tell for Chewbacca palitoy 65d on my guide now.

Also palitoy 65d luke hoth has tell. The real one is a tri logo style bubble whereas toni used on of his rectangular bubbles.

Both have been added to my guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

cheers Jason

 

[Simply Sci-fi]

Thanks to everyone for giving me such a warm welcome and the positives to my collection.

I have never offered my R2-D2 collection for sale on eBay. I'd sooner saw my legs off than sell my Star Wars. If it was a large collection of Artoos, I'm sad to have missed it.

Speaking of eBay, someone who recently bought one of my 45 back Palitoy Return of the Jedi Boba Fett backing cards is concerned it might be a "Toni" fake. I assured him that it is a genuine Palitoy card that was sold to me before Toni bought his batch of backing cards.

I told him that Boba Fett cards that I have are perfectly okay to sell as Palitoy originals and I believe I have sold an example to at least one collector on this thread.

Without being too alarmist, it shows how news of this situation is beginning to spread.

Craig.

 

[lee gray]

It is a good point about the Fetts in the double stem bubbles not really fitting as they are always side ways on and you would have presumed palitoy would have used a slightly bigger bubble so Fett could have faced straight ahead.

 

[mr_palitoy]

It is a good point about the Fetts in the double stem bubbles not really fitting as they are always side ways on and you would have presumed palitoy would have used a slightly bigger bubble so Fett could have faced straight ahead.

Ha, that's a good point, the proper double stem doesnt have this problem as there is space for the figure to move around:-

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ok, I now have bubble tells for all of Tonis palitoy cards. I have put examples for each figure on the relevant variation page:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

On the Toni Matrix I moved AT-AT Commander from 65D to 45C.

Let me know if you have any feedback.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I couldn't find any Toy Toni examples of 65D Darth Vader, the card with iron marks I bought from Toni and it wasn't a MOC that was
for sale on his website so I have removed it from the matrix. It wasn't on JJ's list originally either.

cheers Jason

 

[lee gray]

Toytoni has got alot to answer for ****ing up so many peoples collections
The fact that he has not come on to even attempt to put peoples minds at ease after all the loyalty and money people have given him over the years is lame, as without any word from him which ones are real factory sealed and which ones are not, puts every card on the list under scrutiny.
People wont even be able to sell real ones as think they are fake.
and the buyers who are still in the dark, the carded figures they buy at full price are instantly worth 25 percent at most of what they paid.

its a joke.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toytoni has got alot to answer for ****ing up so many peoples collections
The fact that he has not come on to even attempt to put peoples minds at ease after all the loyalty and money people have given him over the years is lame, as without any word from him which ones are real factory sealed and which ones are not, puts every card on the list under scrutiny.
People wont even be able to sell real ones as think they are fake.
and the buyers who are still in the dark, the carded figures they buy at full price are instantly worth 25 percent at most of what they paid.

its a joke.

For palitoys I think it's pretty much nailed now. There are tells for all the cards he has made.

cheers Jason

 

[finestcomics]

Hello to all. This is my first post here.

Although the issue of the "Tony" cards has been running for quite some time, I have only just become aware of it. I thought that I would contribute something, because my recollections might be of help in ascertaining exactly what happened all of those years ago. I'm sorry that I have not had time to read all of the posts, so forgive me if I am covering old ground, especially as people seem to have posted some of my personal emails without telling me.

For people who don't know me, I am a long standing Star Wars fan and collector. I used to run the U.K.Star Wars Fan Club with Jason Joiner and a group of other fans. I was Club Chairman, a staff writer and my collection was a major source of material. Jason was the club promotions man (deal closer, etc), writer and his collection was an even bigger source of material. I have amassed quite a large Star Wars collection, some of which can be seen at http://www.flickr.com/photos/12871619@N03/sets/72157624878003505/

One of my major purchases occurred when Jason supplied me with 212 Palitoy carded Boba Fett figures. The number 212 was quoted in the Marvel Star Wars comic story "Star Search" as being the number of Mandalorians that fought against the Jedi in the Clone Wars (which of course has been discarded in the new canon). Jason may have bought more from his source, being convinced that I would take the lot but I stuck to 212 which was the size if the army. Jason also bought a large number of carded Snowtroopers around the same time as he had a stack of them in his loft, but I have no idea of the style or quality of the packaging they were in. Jason and I were each collecting an Imperial army at the time and I assumed that Jason had bought them for this reason.

The Boba Fett figures were supplied to me in ordinary boxes, one of which I still have. It is for "Lyon's Ready Brek", with a best before end date of February 1988. In addition to the "Ready Brek" box, I still own a number of the backing cards and bubbles, some of which are still partially attached. Jason did not issue me with sales receipt. The figures were all on identical punched Palitoy Return of the Jedi 45 back cards with a "Free Nien Nunb" offer on the back. There is a red glob next to Chewbacca. The figures inside were all the light coloured version of Boba Fett that was issued in Palitoy/Tri Logo packaging. I have no doubt that the figures were left-over stock because that variation was too difficult to find in that kind of quantity with weapons on the second-hand market.

The bubbles were of a two-stemmed style which was too small to comfortably accommodate a Boba Fett figure. All of the bubbles had not attached properly (probably because of this reason) and although the majority had still clung on the card, they were hanging by a thread. Many of the bubbles were crinkled along the edge, as if too much heat had been applied. Also many of the backing cards had identical marks across the front, seemingly from a machine of some kind (The upside down Snowtrooper on page 93 has similar marks). The figures were not even close to being MOC and if they had have been, Jason could probably have made some phone calls to collectors/fellow dealers and raised more cash selling them such, as they would have been worth a lot more than the £1-2 he charged me. I was a trader myself to a much smaller degree and if I'd got my hands on 212 MOC Boba Fetts I'd have chucked them on a stall at the next Westminster fair. Jason only bought the Fetts because he knew I was a cert for buying them and it is a marvel of his business mind that he remembered our conversation regarding the Mandalorian army. Jason may have attempted to sell some of the Boba Fetts that I did not buy because of James Simmonds' memories.

The theory put forward that left-over cards, bubbles and figures were put together by a company outside of Palitoy on behalf of a dealer would seem to fit very well. I have always wondered why in 1983 Palitoy had made such a big mistake in attempting to issue Boba Fett on the wrong packaging style and why their machinery had caused damage to the bubble and card. An outside company might have made mistakes such as this and then go on to improve the process. Or perhaps one dealer attempted to have some figures resealed and gave up before another dealer was more successful. As a model builder and a crafter myself, I cannot imagine anyone sitting down and individually sealing hundreds of bubbles and backing cards. It really needs to be a machine process (This would also explain the upside down Snowtroopers). It would not be worth anyone's while, sealing them individually for pennies. And it would have been obvious after the first attempts attaching them by hand that the process was not working. The Fetts and Snowtroopers could well be a failed experiment by dealer 1. Dealer 2 has the same Boba Fett lose figures, cards and bubbles and gets a better result elsewhere. I had also wondered why the Boba Fetts had not been stored in Palitoy produced boxes and why the "Redy Brek" boxes were dated to the time that I bought them and not any earlier. It seems that the Boba Fetts were fresh from the factory/workshop and could have even been made to satisfy my particular order. Of course the figures could also be exactly what I had originally assumed; Palitoy left-over stock. The weak state of the glue holding the figures might have been down to poor storage conditions and the damage part of the Palitoy production process.

I have sold hundreds of Boba Fetts over the years as "opened with figure", and as individual backing cards and figures. I never made an attempt at resealing the figures myself. I have had various stalls, shops and an ebay account over the years so my supply has dwindled to almost nothing. So much for my grand Mandalorian army!

The only positive I can glean from this debacle is that I no longer have to justify to myself and others my reasons as a 17-18 year old for opening a large number of rare carded Boba Fett figures. Jason Joiner takes pleasure in reminding me and allegedly telling people of my actions (in the spirit of fun and friendly banter I'm sure). It has turned into "Boba Fett Gate." I am relieved to discover that these Boba Fetts were almost certainly not Palitoy production items. Even at such a young age I was a very serious-minded collector and had the eye for detail and business sense to know that the Boba Fetts were not near enough to MOC to resell at the time or keep for investment purposes. I had a great deal of pleasure in diorama building with the figures, where they went to war against my 700 plus Imperial army in the back garden. That was worth a couple of hundred quid!

I believe it was a couple of years later that Jason Joiner uncovered a warehouse find of his own and I spent a lot of money on a large number of fresh-out-of-the-case Palitoy figures that were definitely not part of the dodgy Boba Fett batch. There a large number of carded and peeled open figures (some of which are from my childhood) out of the 120 – 130 in my collection which are guaranteed to be carded by Palitoy, which I could supply photographs of for comparison against "Tony's."

I hope that this rambling post has been of some use.

Craig Stevens.

Hi Craig,

My name is Joe. I've spent a lot of years collecting in various other hobbies, with the greatest exposure being in vintage comics, collecting material produced between the periods of the 1930's to the 1980's. The first things I remember collecting were comics, trading cards (Star Wars) and then Kenner Star Wars almost in that order, as there were a few items in-between. Those are the ones that stuck. I began collecting Star Wars again about 4 years ago. It was after joining RS that I began buying items from various members through the marketplace, and a few odds and ends through eBay. It was in 2011 that I bought my Palitoy Fett from Toni through an RS member who referred me to him.

Fast forward to December of last year, we hear for the first time (at least in virtual environments) that Toy Toni has been using a modern seal method to replicate a factory sealed MOC. This revelation was brought forward by Jason Joiner. I have heard enough things about him over the years, by people who have been collecting for many years, to think there might be some truth to the warnings.

I wanted to preface what I'm going to say with the above because I wanted you to have a better idea of the information that grounds my understanding of the situation.

Now, to a particular talking point in your post, when you say "I have only just become aware of it" (Tonigate), there is a part of me that wonders how you weren't told sooner. I ask this because Jason has alleged in previous posts that he thought everyone knew. This is especially the case when people started levying their reactions to his allegations - his sentiment went something along of the lines of worrying he might have stirred a hornets nest by revealing this information publicly.

Moreover, there were circumstances where he mentioned telling/warning people at shows about Toni selling MOC's which were assembled using vintage parts, and to hear you did a deal for 212 Fett's, and him not mentioning a word of what he knew seems odd. Especially since it appears you share a closer connection to him than most, through your collecting pursuits, deals you've done, and past involvement in a fan club.

I know, being in the situation I'm in, holding one Toni MOC's (purchased directly, and possibly a second purchased from an RS member), that I dare not sell them to anyone without disclosure, and I'm thankful for not having been in a situation of having to chase past buyers down to let them know a deal we did may have involved a tainted sample from Toni. So to hear you just became aware of Tonigate doesn't particularly sit well for me from the standpoint of Jason's moral compass needing serious recalibrating, and/or that this doesn't seem to add up with what he mentioned previously about others knowing as well. If this speaks to your point (in your second post) about not wanting to defend him, I don't blame you one bit.

Whether it be 1 or 212, I simply can't imagine a person would forget to tell, or not want to warn of the issues associated to fake MOC's that they sold to someone they knew well.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni bonus, have now identified the mysterious Boba Fett AFA Transition Blister as the 45CG variation which is made in the Palitoy Far East Factory in China. It has the letters HG after (ROJ1) denoting China on the bottom right hand corner on the back of the card.

Now on the guide as a valid Fett:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

cheers Jason

 

[jedisearcher]

Joe,

I think the problem is with timing here. The 'people knew' revelations seem to refer to people involved with this mess probably 20+ years ago, but definitely 10-15 years ago. Many have moved on from the hobby, passed away, and recollections fade (possibly deliberately :lol: ).

JJ hadn't been active on here until invited. Why did he raise it though is a good question. Yes, it seemed like a throwaway comment at the time, but perhaps even after all these years it still hacks him off that he never got that deal and that's why he mentioned it. The positive in me thanks him for doing it whatever his motivation was, as TT doesn't seem to be selling any more so the damage done has at least come to an end for future collectors.

I'd agree with you 100% if the revelations were relatively 'modern' but they just aren't. Your point is still very valid tho, and I think there probably are some people who did know and are still active (to some degree) on here and RS now but I'm not even sure how they could have raised it without any proof without being laughed out of town. That said, raising it in some form might have made people at least consider the possibility that the TT stuff might be fake.

Chris

 

[finestcomics]

Joe,

I think the problem is with timing here. The 'people knew' revelations seem to refer to people involved with this mess probably 20+ years ago, but definitely 10-15 years ago. Many have moved on from the hobby, passed away, and recollections fade (possibly deliberately :lol: ).

JJ hadn't been active on here until invited. Why did he raise it though is a good question. Yes, it seemed like a throwaway comment at the time, but perhaps even after all these years it still hacks him off that he never got that deal and that's why he mentioned it. The positive in me thanks him for doing it whatever his motivation was, as TT doesn't seem to be selling any more so the damage done has at least come to an end for future collectors.

I'd agree with you 100% if the revelations were relatively 'modern' but they just aren't. Your point is still very valid tho, and I think there probably are some people who did know and are still active (to some degree) on here and RS now but I'm not even sure how they could have raised it without any proof without being laughed out of town. That said, raising it in some form might have made people at least consider the possibility that the TT stuff might be fake.

Chris

I agree Chris. Timing is a luxury, especially when something is now close to being 2 months since it was first publicly announced.

As mentioned, there is a history to Jason that we simply can't ignore. However if we muted the reputational backdrop for a moment, and were to assess the validity of the claim purely on what we've been told, we have to do it against his online persona, and from what I've gathered from his posts in this thread, Jason seemed to be moving from a "slip" of the tongue in a situation where the questions against him were coming fast and furiously, to his most recent posts where he was riling up the troops on the necessity to go after Toni.

From Craig's account, it seems to be too convenient a position for Jason to post on the forums that we need to stay determined and on course on getting Toni booked, then comparing this gesture to what sounds like a lack of responsibiliy/accountability in letting past buyers know what he knew about Toni.

I know this partly stems from some of the lingering questions raised earlier by jay4, but there's a hole in the role JJ's played in all this big enough to drive the Star Destroyer through.

How does someone go from suggesting "Maybe its time to also inform other outlets like Vectis ? and other 3rd party companies that may still get cough up in this nasty situation ?" and then forget his own duty and need to let someone who bought 212 Fett's from him know what he knew about Toni?

 

[Grant_C]

Just picked up this TFP Palitoy 45b cardback with double stem bubble mark.

Any smoking guns? :?

 

[Vernon]

This looks ok to me.
I think TT's all have a dark red/crimson ESB logo with dark shading.

 

[finestcomics]

This looks ok to me.
I think TT's all have a dark red/crimson ESB logo with dark shading.

I noticed this as well on the ROTJ logo, especially when put side-to-side with a shop bought/original owner breached cardback.

The thing that has always been unsettling to me is the jagged edges and the corner cuts on the actual cardback. The darker red and cut has made me question if in fact these are original vintage cardbacks, or whether these are modern made recards made to look original.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Looks like the Toni style rectangular bubbles with square corners and round corners on the back plate are used on genuine 45c cards for certain figures.
Have added examples for Zuckuss, BSG Black and Jawa to the 45c variation page. It also looks like Han Solo was shop sold with the rectangular bubble
that Toni used too, which makes this one more tricky to spot. Have updated the guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

cheers Jason

 

[Simply Sci-fi]

Joe.

The first thing I should say is how gratifying it is to be communicating with fellow Star Wars collectors after being out in the wilderness for so long. I only stumbled upon this situation because I was vain enough to Google search my name.

"Duty" is a strange term to attempt to attach to dealers and people's sense of right and wrong can differ widely, especially where money is involved. Jason had no duty to inform me of the exact source if the 212 Boba Fetts because he knew I was buying them as loose figures. I assumed that they were Palitoy reject stock and if Jason had described them as such, I do not recall. He definitely did not tell me that they had been sealed on to the backing cards recently because that is something I would have remembered and I wonder if he knew himself. I have sold a small number of the Boba Fetts as "peeled away" examples from the card, where the bubbles were fairly well attached on the left hand side. I only did that because I believed that they were from a batch of Palitoy rejects. In any reject batch there can be good examples and there is nothing wrong in my book of selling them. If I knew about Jason and Toni being offered separate backing cards, bubbles and figures, I would have been defrauding people, which is something that I would never consider doing. I mentioned in my first post how JJ likes to rib me about my opening the Boba Fetts (including a recent email) and include the tale in his funny stories. He would not have bothered if he had explained the origin of the figures to me.

In 1994 the U.K Star Wars Fan Club under my chairmanship was the first to blow the whistle on the fake accessories which were being sold by dealers, such as cut down Ben Kenobi cloaks used to manufacture vinyl cloaked Jawas. We printed a very precise article by collector Cliff Thornton with assistance from Jason Joiner and diagrams by JJ's partner Andrea. At that time the mass-produced fake Star Wars accessories had not come about, otherwise the club would have highlighted it too. If I had received a report about "Toni" figures during my time at the club I would have made it front page news. The truth regarding some of the Star Wars figures being sold must have been bubbling far under the surface. The existence of "Toni" figures would have made such a good report and a way of JJ getting back at Toni (if he wanted to) that I don't know why he did not tell the rest of the club staff what he knew. The possibility is that JJ thought that the Boba Fetts and Snowtroopers were genuinely reject stock and did not know that Toni was assembling the cards bubbles and figures at that time. I mentioned in my second post that I believe that the Boba Fetts and Snowtroopers were probably mass-produced by a company which abandoned the process, because each one is unlikely to have been sold to JJ for 50p if Arthur had been behind it.

It is natural for people to be angry and to seek out scapegoats but should you be shining the spotlight of blame on to collectors outside of your community, for not exposing the "Toni" figures? As with the old Star Wars fan club, it is down to members of the current collecting communities to share with each other what they have learned. The old crowd of collectors such as Jason Joiner, Jim Stevenson, Cliff Thornton (presumably) and myself have not been part of the collecting circles for years. Even if I had learned about the non-Palitoy carded figures in the late eighties, I would have assumed that the present collecting community was up-to-date with all of the relevant information. Carded Star Wars action figure collectors have much more of an advantage than other collectors because there are so many references to draw from and companies which physically check and grade such items. Now upon contacting SWFUK I find that figures that were carded outside of Palitoy are being sold as the real thing and that the "Tonis" seem to be fairly easy to spot. I mentioned before how surprised I was that Toni could keep dishing out crisp MOCs without anyone questioning it. If UKFUK members had suspicions, it would probably be very difficult to question the conduct of a respected dealer, so Toni's secret has been preserved.

Regarding pursuing Toni, you should be aware that another "open secret" is that the entire antiques and collectibles trade operates a "let the buyer beware" policy, where loose items which were originally sold in a presentation box are "married" to an entirely different box, glass bottles that have lost their stopper are fitted with one from another bottle and table tops and legs from different pieces of furniture are fitted together. In the sci-fi and TV trade dealers will buy a damaged item in a good box and replace the item with a mint conditioned example. Rare toys can be pieced together from several damaged items and be a hybrid. Loose figures are sold with the wrong accessory. Collectors truly need to beware and not take any dealer's word at face value. Unfortunately in the antiques and collectibles community, the onus is on the collector to check and double check everything before buying. A good case in point is when my parents bought me two boxed sets of vintage Britains Deetail soldiers for my 18th birthday from a dealer who insisted that he could supply any variety that I chose. As an adult I can tell that the dealer in question probably had a stack of empty boxes, fitted the appropriate mint-used soldiers inside and printed his own label which identifies the set. If the authorities chose to go after Toni, they might as well do a round-up of all of the dealers on Portobello Road.

This is a very unfortunate situation and I feel very sorry for people who have been caught out. It could well be that in the future however "Toni" cards will end up being sought after, considering how they have been apparently assembled from Palitoy elements. Collectors with cash in their hands may well treat a "Toni" Star Wars figure as the next best thing to an original MOC, especially as the condition is so much better.

Star Wars figures will be placed under even greater scrutiny now and that can only be a positive step, considering how technology is advancing so quickly. The incentives for producing fakes will become even greater as MOCs become ever more valuable.

Craig.

 

[Simply Sci-fi]

Just to clarify; I have not communicated with Jason Joiner over this issue. I had not heard anything from J J for well over a decade until he bought an item from me on eBay shortly before Christmas. He couldn't resist sending me a message ribbing me about opening the 212 Boba Fetts.

Craig.