Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Grant_C]

This could also explain strange one off's like Grant's 45c Luke:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1083375/

So I would say Palitoy unused card + Kenner 03 buble = Toni

Sad conclusion, but there you go.



Jason

The issue I have with this was it was not bought from a collector, hence I got it for £80.

The card is not TT Mint and the figure is far from TT mint.

But the bubble is a smoking gun and whats to say the damage to the figure and card didn't come later.

 

[Grant_C]

This could also explain strange one off's like Grant's 45c Luke:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1083375/

So I would say Palitoy unused card + Kenner 03 buble = Toni

Sad conclusion, but there you go.



Jason

The issue I have with this was it was not bought from a collector, hence I got it for £80.

The card is not TT Mint and the figure is far from TT mint.

But the bubble is a smoking gun and whats to say the damage to the figure and card didn't come later.

 

[lee gray]

Where would Toni have got kenner bubbles from though and if he did have kenner bubbles whats to say he didnt have kenner cards too lol, wont open up that can of worms hehe.

That sure is weird having a damaged figure and kenner bubble.

 

[mr_palitoy]

You also talk about waffle seals. Again, please provide examples.

cheers Jason

Hi Jason,

I have a Han Solo Original on Palitoy 45 back(B) "Single Stem" bubble where a "Horizontal thin lines" pattern is visible. I will provide pictures later because it's in my storage now, but i checked it the last time i was there and the pattern was clearly visible.

Also, the "Single Stem" marked bubble was widely used on Palitoy 45"B" cards... I use to have vintage cardbacks with "Single Stem" bubbles marks for:

Darth Vader
Chewbacca
Han Solo "04"
Death Star Droid "02"
C-3PO RL "015"
AT-AT Commander "03" & "01"
R2-D2 Sensorscope "12"
BSG black "01"
TIE Fighter Pilot "13"
CCP "02"
Luke Skywalker Hoth "03"
4-LOM

Again, they are all Palitoy 45 back "B" cardbacks...

JC :roll:

Ok, accepted that single stem on esb 45b occurred, and outside of the unused cardbacks list.
Just need some decent pictures of a few.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Where would Toni have got kenner bubbles from though and if he did have kenner bubbles whats to say he didnt have kenner cards too lol, wont open up that can of worms hehe.

That sure is weird having a damaged figure and kenner bubble.

There were boxes of bubbles on the list, so in there I would imagine.

cheers Jason

 

[panastur]

Where would Toni have got kenner bubbles from though and if he did have kenner bubbles whats to say he didnt have kenner cards too lol, wont open up that can of worms hehe.

That sure is weird having a damaged figure and kenner bubble.

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

 

[mr_palitoy]

This could also explain strange one off's like Grant's 45c Luke:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1083375/

So I would say Palitoy unused card + Kenner 03 buble = Toni

Sad conclusion, but there you go.



Jason

The issue I have with this was it was not bought from a collector, hence I got it for £80.

The card is not TT Mint and the figure is far from TT mint.

But the bubble is a smoking gun and whats to say the damage to the figure and card didn't come later.

What is the figure damage again? It strikes me that Toni was having a really slack day when he made that, used the
wrong bubble and wrong figure.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Where would Toni have got kenner bubbles from though and if he did have kenner bubbles whats to say he didnt have kenner cards too lol, wont open up that can of worms hehe.

That sure is weird having a damaged figure and kenner bubble.

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

I don't umderstand, I thought these 03 bubbles are Kenner bubbles, or just Kenner style bubbles?

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

So Toni got Kenner 03 bubbles that he has been sticking on the odd card/figure combo or two.

I totally agree with you. Toni got unused single stem 03 bubbles. There's no doubt on it.... but he made the mistake to seal these bubble from the front and not from the rear as it was done in the factory. The result of Toni's 03 bubble seal is a flatten "03" mark like it was smashed with the seal process. The Toni 03 mark looks flat and it's not as bulgy as the genuine 03 marks...

The esb 45b imperial tie fighter pilot with the single stem bubble that I think is Toni's is one of these Kenner 03 bubbles.

This card show all the tell tale signs of a weakly attached bubbles that I see on my own cards.

Agree with you. The 03 mark looks totally flat as it was smashed from the front... Also, no pattren is visible.

The waffle pattern is not produced by the sealing machine, it's how the glue is spread on the back of thge bubble.
The glue on the bubbles is heat activated, and in the case of Kenner 03 bubbles is spread in a manner which
produces the waffle pattern when heated.

I disagree here Jason. There's no glue involved in the genuine/vintage seal process....

It's a varnish coat applied on the front card that is heat activated. That's the reason, generally, cardbacks are shiny on the front and not on the back.
The bubble use to melt with the varnish coat under heat and pressure.

These varnish coat were already applied at the printshop...

JC

Glue/varnish coat, point accepted.

Good to see you think the tie fighter pilot I outed in my last guide update is a Toni.

cheers Jason

 

[panastur]

Where would Toni have got kenner bubbles from though and if he did have kenner bubbles whats to say he didnt have kenner cards too lol, wont open up that can of worms hehe.

That sure is weird having a damaged figure and kenner bubble.

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

I don't umderstand, I thought these 03 bubbles are Kenner bubbles, or just Kenner style bubbles?

cheers Jason

I just don't understand why people says they are "Kenner" bubbles??? These are Palitoy, not Kenner.

JC

 

[mr_palitoy]

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

I don't umderstand, I thought these 03 bubbles are Kenner bubbles, or just Kenner style bubbles?

cheers Jason

I just don't understand why people says they are "Kenner" bubble??? These are Palitoy, not Kenner.

JC

They look a bit like Kenner style bubbles?

I'll stop using Kenner in the description of these if that would make it clearer? Need to do another
revision of my guide outing single stem 03 bubbles that Toni had.

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

What is the figure damage again?

cheers Jason

Theres a crack down the centre of its chest.

 

[spoons]

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

I don't umderstand, I thought these 03 bubbles are Kenner bubbles, or just Kenner style bubbles?

cheers Jason

I just don't understand why people says they are "Kenner" bubble??? These are Palitoy, not Kenner.

JC

They look a bit like Kenner style bubbles?

I'll stop using Kenner in the description of these if that would make it clearer? Need to do another
revision of my guide outing single stem 03 bubbles that Toni had.

cheers Jason

These bubbles are found on Kenner and Palitoy cards (both c. 45 onwards)

Toni has poorly sealed examples of numbered bubbles, so certainly had access to unused stock

Bubbles with a 'lined' waffled seal (German and UK) are so far assumed good

pics to follow

The cracked figure may be a pbp (I think - any variant specialists out there?) as cracked Luke's have shown up before, this would support the later Euro lines using early cardbacks

 

[lee gray]

confused.com
this threads a headfuck lol

 

[mr_palitoy]

Hi Lee, These are not kenner bubbles.... Just Palitoy!!!!

I don't umderstand, I thought these 03 bubbles are Kenner bubbles, or just Kenner style bubbles?

cheers Jason

I just don't understand why people says they are "Kenner" bubble??? These are Palitoy, not Kenner.

JC

They look a bit like Kenner style bubbles?

I'll stop using Kenner in the description of these if that would make it clearer? Need to do another
revision of my guide outing single stem 03 bubbles that Toni had.

cheers Jason

These bubbles are found on Kenner and Palitoy cards (both c. 45 onwards)

Toni has poorly sealed examples of numbered bubbles, so certainly had access to unused stock

Bubbles with a 'lined' waffled seal (German and UK) are so far assumed good

pics to follow

The cracked figure may be a pbp (I think - any variant specialists out there?) as cracked Luke's have shown up before, this would support the later Euro lines using early cardbacks

Incorrect analysis removed

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Action Fraud are interested and have advised that people effected should contact them.

You don't have to give personal details.

 

[spoons]

You also talk about waffle seals. Again, please provide examples.

cheers Jason

The lined waffle seal has been mentioned a few times but is a real pain to photo - so far only JC has done a decent job. I'll try and take better pics of my seals this weekend but for the time being I think any numbered bubble with a seal like the one in JCs photo at the bottom is legit (my Bossk and other 45bs included).

Wolfgang's photos also have the seal but the photos don't show it as well, however, they clearly show single stemmed bubbles on 45 backs - as I said before German and UK cards were sealed at the same plant so some would have the same bubbles

If you go to page 93 or 92 of this thread there is a used mint ugnaught GM 45 back, so a mint card is not definite proof of a fake.

JJ has said Toni bought carded figures and I don't see why there is such reticence to accept that there are fake Toni's and genuine (mint?) ones - makes life a lot harder for us but so what.

This one is good?!

TT bubbles: The 03 one indeed looks good compared to a used card back.

All early TT figures I have look factory sealed, different tooling was used, they do not at all look "homemade".
Even not the 2 ones with bubbles with dimples where 2 more different tools were used.
Hopefully Toni soon comes up with the explanation what really happened.

Wolfgang[/quote]


JC's pic of a lined waffle seal

 

[mr_palitoy]

Found a genuine TFP with the 13 bubble on vectis:-

Luke hoth with 03 on vetis:-

Imperial commander 03 on vectis:-

Cloud car pilot 03 on vectis:-

BSG black 01 on vectis:-

4-Lom 13 on vectis:-

c3po removable limbs 015 on vectis:-

r2d2 sensorscope 12 on vectis:-

cheers Jason

 

[Caswellbot]

How sure are you about this heat sealable varnish on the front of the card? It's the first I've heard of it and I'm not sure how that would create a waffle pattern. I always though the waffle pattern was created in the vaccuum forming process and is there to provide grip/ extra surface area to help seal the card?

 

[Caswellbot]

The seal on the tfp on the previous page looks shite. Just thought is throw that in there.