Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Richard_H]

I am sorry guys i just cant see it, i think its far more likely people will fall into three categories

1 Those who dont own these items, They dont care as have lost nothing financially and will avoid buying them like the plague, knowing that there is "something about them"
2 People who own them who will continue to try and prove them to be right or wrong.
3 people who have never heard of Toni who will continue to buy them off E-bay

at this moment in time we have no idea what *if anything* Toni has actually done apart from take his ball home!

I personally find this very offensive!!!

I do not fall into any of those categories! I am a loose collector and do not own a SINGLE MOC! And nevertheless I DO care! I tried eveyrthing possible form my point of view....so please consider #1 as nonsense!!

I have a feeling despite your opinion that people who actually own them are not interested to loose money on those!! There is really 0-5% response of the collectors on board who actually own a ton of those!! It is very sad.....

Thanks to the guys who (tried to) help....

I have not much left for the guys who stick their heads into the sand!!! Disgraceful!!

+1 a loose collector here too who gives a **** because mates have lost money. Guess that's the difference between a community and those who look out for no. 1

 

[jambobbyb]

I think you both missed the point of what I was saying, If we can't prove something now and make it concrete Toni's got away with the whole thing. And moving forward with these "dodgy possibly but who really knows" MOC's out there this is what's going to happen 1 2 or 3 for about 99% of collectors. I don't own any of these MOC's and I will be avoiding them like the plague but I did try getting the message out there to buyers on e-bay with my "front" auction, I had 70 watchers and 750+ page views and anyone who has lost out financially has my full sympathy.

 

[Richard_H]

Right I understand what you're saying now but I don't agree. It'll only head that way if we let it.

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Brian's Toys are selling a couple of light blue Palitoy carded Fetts that look like Tonis for over £500 each.

Surely they must be aware by now....

 

[eddiebigbiscuits]

as i see it, all those involved have committed fraud anyone that knew about it as well as those creating the fakes are as bad as each other as they knowingly duped innocent people into paying for items that only has a value of a simple reseal, they should all face justice as the criminals they are and be made to at the very least apologise to everyone fooled by this deception, i do not own one of these fakes and feel lucky to of gotten away with it and my condolences to all who have lost money and have been cheated.. it's disgraceful.

 

[theslider]

Toytoni Hoth Stormtrooper:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-Hoth-Snowtrooper-Carded-ROTJ-AFA-85-Archival-Cased-/121245153966?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT&nma=true&si=qPQlrg5ytf5FIth8u9hirO6UnR8%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

You would have thought with all that info he added about grading, he would have sneakily added a line about toytoni too.

Soon i think my most active posts in recent acquisitions will change to this thread.

He only got £80 for it so I think people are getting wise to the fact.

 

[Bootyhunter]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Star-Wars-Palitoy-vintage-Boba-Fett-backing-card-1983-2-/111258564837?pt=UK_ToysGames_ActionFigures_ActionFigures_JN&hash=item19e786f8e5

Maulster I think this guy could have some answers as I know he has sold several 'tri logo' fetts which were 'falling off' space scene cards in the past, I've been meaning to comment but I just couldn't remember his name.

I think Wolf raised a very good point about Billy Boys observations with regard to carded tri fetts, always near perfect never worn or squashed, often I have considered buying one from Tony but the more I looked at them the more they looked too perfect.

Keep up the good work fellas.

 

[theslider]

I know JJ will have ANOTHER go at me for saying this, but when he dropped the bombshell of Toy Toni assembling cards that it was common knowledge within the collecting community at that time. Have these other people come forward?

Personally although it has come around arse about face; JJ is right as all Toni needs to do is say well here are my X amount of carded figures and show us a photo of them to prove his innocence but he hasn't done that.

I've never heard of Jason Joiner before reading this thread and I'm not one of the 'uber' collectors so I can't comment on his motives but he seems genuine enough but I refer back to what I said in my first point.

The focus should now be on Toni and proving these are genuine carded figures. I know Edd did a jokey post about finger prints and Lee (Grey, I think) mentioned DNA but I don't think Toni would've been that careful to use gloves when remounting these figures and all it needs is for Toni to be arrested to get his finger prints. He cannot refuse.

 

[Caswellbot]

I don't know if it was common knowledge at the time but it was mentioned to me by a long term dealer at a fair about 3 years ago. Hea the guy who told me Toni was going round one fair buying up loads of mint loose hothtroopers. He couldn't prove anything but had his suspicions.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have analysed all 23 of my suspected Tonis, posted analysis and pictures for each along with a used shop sold cardback, and a summary/conclusion at the end.

I welcome comments on what I have posted.

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=19154&start=0

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I have eliminated 65A and 65B cards from the Toy Toni Matrix. All my examples and the ones I can find on google images are 65C. So if you have the Nien Nunb
offer on the back you are safe, if you have the Chewbacca offer you are not. It appears that Logray and Leia Boushh can only be found as 65C on Toy Toni stock,
both of these card/figure combos were thought not to exist until I looked at mt Tonis and googled an AFA graded Logray on the web.

I have update my guide to reflect this and also to highlight that the sub variations 45CC, 45CN, 65CG and 65CN are not from Toni's stock.

This should further help to die down affected cards and help AFA/UKG to make some informed choices when cleansing their databases if they choose to use my guide.

cheers Jason

 

[_Lee_]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

Best post on this thread for a long time-well said Grant

Unless serious criminal proceedings and accurate proof is there,then this will never be resolved.

Im bowing out of this now too.I hope it gets sorted,but deep down i think it go down as a lesson and will never be resolved.

I take my hat off to all the people who have contributed here,and other places.Ive done a bit myself,and am always prepared to help,but thats enough for me now.

 

[spoons]

Ok,

I'm bowing out of this, I don't have much invested in this really. ( Famous last words)

I have spoken to loads of people from back in the day, Graders, forum and internet community, dealers and collectors.

I have tried to both prove and disprove the accusations and this is my conclusion.

01: The evidence is almost overwhelming that Toytoni has been buying large quantities of mint loose, ugraded, baggie figures that match the list.
02: I believe that the evidence shows that Toytoni has perfected the sealing process (This means that I have doubts on Trilogo. If he has the cardbacks and bubbles)
03: AFA have ugraded Toytoni stock.
04: The people who have the information to give strong supporting evidence have the most to lose.
05: Only a criminal investigation by those dealers, graders and collectors simultaneously who have the most to loose will get to the bottom of this.

I think everyone has done a great job on this on all the main forums.

That's the end of the road for me.

Best post on this thread for a long time-well said Grant

Unless serious criminal proceedings and accurate proof is there,then this will never be resolved.

Im bowing out of this now too.I hope it gets sorted,but deep down i think it go down as a lesson and will never be resolved.

I take my hat off to all the people who have contributed here,and other places.Ive done a bit myself,and am always prepared to help,but thats enough for me now.

Spoke to a police inspector friend this weekend; without scientific proof it is very unlikely that the police would give the issue much attention. It would cost too much money to investigate a crime that as yet there is only circumstantial evidence and the impact of the crime is relatively limited. It works much like we see on the Wire, budgets are set to investigate higher profile crimes - burglary, car crime etc

Even with scientific proof (finist's spectroscopy evidence?) it would take a sympathetic policeman to run with it - so worth sending those suspect Toni's to the scientists, but a civil case may be a better way forward.

 

[Grant_C]

it would take a sympathetic policeman to run with it .

Thanks Lee, lets hope someone moves forward with it.

Andy- I heard exactly the same quote from a judge.

I reckon you could find one as well, because its star wars, and it would be a lot more exciting than filing reports on neighbourly disputes.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have updated my guide to give better guidance about what bubble variations are thought genuine, and which are thought to be Tonis:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

Have also added clipper stickers to:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb41bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

Hope that helps everyone figure out what is genuine and what isn't.

cheers Jason

 

[Captainsolo1978]

I say we write to the BBC and get Dominic Littlewood like someone suggested. It's not an everyday occurrance. And be careful what you post as everyone including TT will be reading this.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I say we write to the BBC and get Dominic Littlewood like someone suggested. It's not an everyday occurrance. And be careful what you post as everyone including TT will be reading this.

Dom from Cowboy Traders was made for this.

Jason

 

[spoons]

Have updated my guide to give better guidance about what bubble variations are thought genuine, and which are thought to be Tonis:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

Have also added clipper stickers to:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb41bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

Hope that helps everyone figure out what is genuine and what isn't.

cheers Jason

Jason your 45b text is wrong - we have seen numerous single stemmed numbered bubbles on 45b backs on this thread.

JC's German ones and price sticker/residue UK ones

You've undoubtedly done much work but your words read as fact rather than theory

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have updated my guide to give better guidance about what bubble variations are thought genuine, and which are thought to be Tonis:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

Have also added clipper stickers to:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb41bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

Hope that helps everyone figure out what is genuine and what isn't.

cheers Jason

Jason your 45b text is wrong - we have seen numerous single stemmed numbered bubbles on 45b backs on this thread.

JC's German ones and price sticker/residue UK ones

You've undoubtedly done much work but your words read as fact rather than theory

My text doesnt say that single stemmed bubbles dont occur on 45b, but it does say that single stem for chebacca, imperial tie fighter pilot, and bossk are
tonis, given that they are seen double stem on shop sold cards.

What do you think it should say?

Can you provide examples? This is a long...... thread.

This is a palitoy guide, so german cardback bubble types are not relevant.

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Have updated my guide to give better guidance about what bubble variations are thought genuine, and which are thought to be Tonis:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

Have also added clipper stickers to:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb41bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45acardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

Hope that helps everyone figure out what is genuine and what isn't.

cheers Jason

Jason your 45b text is wrong - we have seen numerous single stemmed numbered bubbles on 45b backs on this thread.

JC's German ones and price sticker/residue UK ones

You've undoubtedly done much work but your words read as fact rather than theory

My text doesnt say that single stemmed bubbles dont occur on 45b, but it does say that single stem for chebacca, imperial tie fighter pilot, and bossk are
tonis, given that they are seen double stem on shop sold cards.

What do you think it should say?

Can you provide examples? This is a long...... thread.

This is a palitoy guide, so german cardback bubble types are not relevant.

cheers Jason

Whether a card is German or UK shouldn't matter if they were assembled at the same factory - as we assume these were hence the same source of cardbacks

When I'm at a pc I'll go back through the thread and fish out the pics, but once again it seems I misunderstood you

JC has shop bought single stemmed numbered bubbles with the lined waffle seal. I have this same bubble and seal on my German HH - with price sticker residue on the rear (same as JC's stickers)

I also have a UK Bossk, same seal same bubble and a price tear

Based on the quantities of unused cardbacks I find it amazing that I lucked out with two 'genuine' cards. Either there are plenty of legit examples too or Toni perfected that seal (doubtful based on later bubble seals)

Weirdly my Stormtrooper now would appear to have the correct bubble but I'm convinced that it is fake

I think you should put in some disclaimers 'at present no examples of x,y or z have been found with single stemmed bubbles' etc. IMO and at present your observations are based on too few cardbacks for definite statements

Happy to discuss in pm or on the phone if you want