Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[wbobafett]

Wolff, why should someone destroy a card which is worth 2000€ to get a figure which is worth less than half, except the opener knew the card is/was fake.

Okay....I didnt knew the card was worth THAT much! The figure itself could fetch half of the price I guess if mint and unbroken, but speculations aside....you are right! A new riddle I guess!

I am getting headaches trying to follow this! IMO there is no way ever a factory could have sealed sth that way! Why anybody with no clue has opened it?? I dont know. But I am pretty sure the iron seals are not factory made and not Toni made...(his ones are really better...though??)

I just thought maybe the figure itself was worth opening it...but well....

 

[jay4]

unless of course many moons ago the bubble had become very badly damaged or cracked open so the owner just hauled it off to free luke no point in having him covered in smashed up bubble after all or maybe it was ripped off at a time many years ago in the early 90s-mid 90s when the moc wasnt all that valuable and someone just wanted the minty figure out so it wasnt finacially stupid to do so at the time , i know one thing for sure thats gotta be the same bloke that done the hoth troopers around the same time,

 

[spoons]

or maybe it was ripped off at a time many years ago in the early 90s-mid 90s when the moc wasnt all that valuable and someone just wanted the minty figure out so it wasnt finacially stupid to do so at the time ,

No need for any further discussion, these iron seals have been knocking around for 20 years, chances are that's exactly what happened.

 

[RKW1138]

Hi guys, hope you all had a good Christmas.

In my experience all blisters supplied by Kenner have the same adhesive applied to the blister. The waffle pattern is not created by the heat sealer it is simply the pattern of the adhesive which I think Kenner might have had a patent for. The heat sealer simply applies pressure and melts the blisters adhesive backing. All the Palitoy figures that came out of Coalvile used the same Kenner blisters right up until the time of the twin stem & trilogo bubbles which probably came from a different supplier and clearly use a different blister adheasive.

So I would consider any Kenner/Palitoy figure that has the standard single stem or rounded blister that doesn't have the waffle pattern highly suspect.

 

[Doomseeker]

Has anyone else noticed an uplift in the amount of palitoy fetts appearing on ebay since this story broke...
The sad part is that it's possibly forum members gettting rid now and not disclosing that there might be issues with figures, I hope it's not the case and is coincidence!!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Has anyone else noticed an uplift in the amount of palitoy fetts appearing on ebay since this story broke...
The sad part is that it's possibly forum members gettting rid now and not disclosing that there might be issues with figures, I hope it's not the case and is coincidence!!

My palitoy search on ebay shows 50 items to a page, listed most recent first. 5 items (10%) of the first page are Toni's.

Some may not know, others will and are trying to offload.

Jason

 

[TC-14]

This is sad to see. As Jason has already mentioned, those in the know should do the right thing and give full disclosure on the sale of their questionable items. And those that don't know, should be made aware of the current situation.

 

[mr_palitoy]

This is sad to see. As Jason has already mentioned, those in the know should do the right thing and give full disclosure on the sale of their questionable items. And those that don't know, should be made aware of the current situation.

This is only the start. People will be trying to sell these on without disclosure forever.



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Basically, the market place for Palitoys is ****ed.

Jason

 

[ace]

hi all i said i would pop in with any new info that i come across what ever it is proof or not as i want to show i am being up front with everyone on this matter.

so i talked to Jim Stevenson today and he remembers nothing at all really :-|

he is getting older now and has been around the same amount of time as me and has lived a lot also so its hard to him to remember much , he could not even remember his best contact in the US back then that he used to buy lots of stuff from "Beths collectormana" someone he should have remembered very well :-(

i did talk to another trader that did say he used to sell minty mint figures to Toni but he has herd of all the stuff going on here and on line and dose not want to get cough up in it :-|

one other thing i herd back from Craig Stevenson the collector that bought the 100s of Boba fetts from me back in the day and this is what he emailed me , i have included my email to him so as to be clear and up front with everyone.

jason

hope you are doing well

is that one of the 100s boba fetes that i sold you back in the late 80s or early 90s

did you manage to remove any of them in a really nice way so there was little damage ?

sorry you did not keep them all nice they would have been worth a fourteen now .

anyway hope you are keeping well and have a great christmas i do not have a contact number for you anymore pop it over and we can chat one day keep well jason

Hi,

Good to hear from you. Yes, this is one of the Boba Fetts you sold me. As you will remember all of them were factory seconds deemed unworthy for sale in the shops. The bubbles were not attached to the backing cards properly, probably because the Boba Fett figure is too large for that style of bubble. They were all falling off. Also most of the backing cards suffered from a printing error, leaving a nasty mark across the front. I attempted to keep a dozen or so of the nicer ones in sealed condition but not one of them survived I'm afraid. I don't even have one.

It would be good to catch up with you again. My home number is xxxxxxxxxxxx. What is the best way of contacting you?

All the best,

Craig.

i had not talked to Craig for around 4 or 5 years i think ? and we have not talked about these for at least 20 year i think also ?

as you saw in his replay he thought that they were factory seconds as did i at the time , the intreating thing is that he says the bubbles were the problem that made them fall off the cards like the Hoth Troopers and have the same marks across the cards the iron marks , something that even Craig is unaware of at this time like i was up till the meeting at the show last month.


anyway hope that is of help in some way on this matter ?

yours

jason

 

[jimbody1]

personally I think regardless of what's said here people will carry on buying and selling them until there is definitive proof one way or the other which I think is not coming at all...ever. Those that think they're Toni made simply won't buy them. That's all there is to it. All this speculation and circumstantial evidence regardless of how compelling will simply keep the community going round in circles. How you reconcile the two opposing parties is what people now need to worry about. How many people who have Toni mocs would say for definite 100% sure that their mocs are not original, I wouldn't think there would be many and that is going to cause problems.

 

[ace]

personally I think regardless of what's said here people will carry on buying and selling them until there is definitive proof one way or the other which I think is not coming at all...ever. Those that think they're Toni made simply won't buy them. That's all there is to it. All this speculation and circumstantial evidence regardless of how compelling will simply keep the community going round in circles. How you reconcile the two opposing parties is what people now need to worry about. How many people who have Toni mocs would say for definite 100% sure that their mocs are not original, I wouldn't think there would be many and that is going to cause problems.

hi jimbody1 i have been thinking about this post and its very interesting , i think that people selling off there figures now and not saying anything could really come back on some of the sellers ?

j

 

[ace]

thinking a bit more about this

well people may not decide and maybe its not going to have 100% proof , but thats not important ?, the real fact it they are just not rare , think about it.

this list was put together by Arthur and these cards had survived at that time so we do not need to argue if Toni did it or not the fact is these cards are out there somewhere , Toni is the only source for these cards and is selling these cards now today , but again its not that important, now everyone knows that on the list there is over 11,000 cards so what are these carded figures are worth today ?

how big is the demand compared to how many cards are out there ? just think about that ?

it dose not matters what Toni says really

when it comes to the value of them now , most of these cards are just not rare and everyone knows that now.

harsh facts but reality i think ?

just my thoughts J

 

[jimbody1]

I don't think rarity comes into it, weather Toni bought 1000's of carded figures, unused cards whatever. It matters not. What does matter is while there may well be many that think all/some/most toni's gm and palitoy mocs are made up there will be many that have them now that just are not sure and cannot say with 100% certainty that they're not original so you are left with those that will still collect,buy,sell them as genuine and others that won't touch them with a big stick. The problem is reconciling these two opposing views within the community in general without causing problems for sellers. I agree there is very strong circumstantial evidence in one direction but without solid proof who can decide who is right or wrong. Rarity and price have nothing to do with anything people will pay what they will pay and that's what sets the market, tonis fetts went for hundreds before all this and still are now, he may have hundreds more and they may well be real and case fresh but that's not stopped the price of them being daft.

 

[ace]

then maybe someone should just take this to the police as this is what they do for a living , everyone on here has done there best now i think ?

j

 

[obiwannacollect]

then maybe someone should just take this to the police as this is what they do for a living , everyone on here has done there best now i think ?

j[/quote

Plant that seed....and watch it grow

 

[spoons]

Hi guys, hope you all had a good Christmas.

In my experience all blisters supplied by Kenner have the same adhesive applied to the blister. The waffle pattern is not created by the heat sealer it is simply the pattern of the adhesive which I think Kenner might have had a patent for. The heat sealer simply applies pressure and melts the blisters adhesive backing. All the Palitoy figures that came out of Coalvile used the same Kenner blisters right up until the time of the twin stem & trilogo bubbles which probably came from a different supplier and clearly use a different blister adheasive.

So I would consider any Kenner/Palitoy figure that has the standard single stem or rounded blister that doesn't have the waffle pattern highly suspect.

Hi and Merry Christmas to you

Both Kenner and Palitoy cards have different bubbles after the 41 backs, and that is when Palitoy seals change. Unfortunately that only adds to the problem of spotting a fake Palitoy

 

[spoons]

hi all i said i would pop in with any new info that i come across what ever it is proof or not as i want to show i am being up front with everyone on this matter.

so i talked to Jim Stevenson today and he remembers nothing at all really :-|

he is getting older now and has been around the same amount of time as me and has lived a lot also so its hard to him to remember much , he could not even remember his best contact in the US back then that he used to buy lots of stuff from "Beths collectormana" someone he should have remembered very well :-(

i did talk to another trader that did say he used to sell minty mint figures to Toni but he has herd of all the stuff going on here and on line and dose not want to get cough up in it :-|

one other thing i herd back from Craig Stevenson the collector that bought the 100s of Boba fetts from me back in the day and this is what he emailed me , i have included my email to him so as to be clear and up front with everyone.

jason

hope you are doing well

is that one of the 100s boba fetes that i sold you back in the late 80s or early 90s

did you manage to remove any of them in a really nice way so there was little damage ?

sorry you did not keep them all nice they would have been worth a fourteen now .

anyway hope you are keeping well and have a great christmas i do not have a contact number for you anymore pop it over and we can chat one day keep well jason

Hi,

Good to hear from you. Yes, this is one of the Boba Fetts you sold me. As you will remember all of them were factory seconds deemed unworthy for sale in the shops. The bubbles were not attached to the backing cards properly, probably because the Boba Fett figure is too large for that style of bubble. They were all falling off. Also most of the backing cards suffered from a printing error, leaving a nasty mark across the front. I attempted to keep a dozen or so of the nicer ones in sealed condition but not one of them survived I'm afraid. I don't even have one.

It would be good to catch up with you again. My home number is xxxxxxxxxxxx. What is the best way of contacting you?

All the best,

Craig.

i had not talked to Craig for around 4 or 5 years i think ? and we have not talked about these for at least 20 year i think also ?

as you saw in his replay he thought that they were factory seconds as did i at the time , the intreating thing is that he says the bubbles were the problem that made them fall off the cards like the Hoth Troopers and have the same marks across the cards the iron marks , something that even Craig is unaware of at this time like i was up till the meeting at the show last month.


anyway hope that is of help in some way on this matter ?

yours

jason

Hi Jason,

Another interesting post, from Craig's reply it would appear that the iron on Fetts and possibly the HTs are reseals of factory seconds. That would put a different spin on things.

The made to order pieces are something different again

 

[jedisearcher]

I don't think rarity comes into it, weather Toni bought 1000's of carded figures, unused cards whatever. It matters not. What does matter is while there may well be many that think all/some/most toni's gm and palitoy mocs are made up there will be many that have them now that just are not sure and cannot say with 100% certainty that they're not original so you are left with those that will still collect,buy,sell them as genuine and others that won't touch them with a big stick. The problem is reconciling these two opposing views within the community in general without causing problems for sellers. I agree there is very strong circumstantial evidence in one direction but without solid proof who can decide who is right or wrong. Rarity and price have nothing to do with anything people will pay what they will pay and that's what sets the market, tonis fetts went for hundreds before all this and still are now, he may have hundreds more and they may well be real and case fresh but that's not stopped the price of them being daft.

I agree rarity has never been the issue. There have always been lots of Fetts, HTs, 3POs etc but they still seem to sell, albeit slowly at times.

Looking at what's going on on ebay it seems pretty clear that a massive part of the SW collecting community doesn't have any idea what's going on. TT stuff is still getting bid on and selling ok. Values will fall because of overstock, but I guess it'll still sell because many are uninformed of the problem and they'll just think they're getting a bargain. If the seller is prepared to offer a refund and maybe risk a neg if the buyer finds out within 12 weeks then so be it?

What's a seller even supposed to put on a listing. I've got stuff I suspect are TT but are at least 3 times removed from him, and are graded. I don't know if they are fake or otherwise. What do I say to a prospective buyer? Do your own research? How can a buyer even make a judgement on whether it's fake or not?

Unfortunately, no amount of effort by us on here can ever rectify the problem, so perhaps the market just adjusts gradually over time. Everything is inconclusive.

As to getting the police involved, I'm more than happy to volunteer to help out with whatever needs doing but I think we start with trading standard first. He's clearly misrepresenting what he's selling by omitting key facts which is against the law.

As someone else posted, you have to report a crime to the police, and we don't have one at the moment. Trading standards can achieve the same aim and can get the police involved later if it comes to that.

Chris

 

[Joe]

I agree with what people are saying, there are always going to be sellers and buyers who will be unaware of this situation but even if they were aware..what are they going to do? Pull their auction? On what grounds? All we have is a bunch of circumstantial evidence that admittedly doesn't look good won't be proof enough for some.

Forum members are far more likely to feel bad by selling Toni figures because it's kind of impossible to pretend you haven't seen all the threads at this stage and of course the majority are nice guys who care about their fellow collectors..yet some still will. It might seem bad form but they will just say until it's proven it's not true.

It will be on their conscience if they cash out knowing full well the figures might be suspect, if you want to do something about it then you can email a link to the thread(s) to buyers + sellers on ebay or the forums but you won't be able to alert everyone or stop everyone from selling these on. I know for a fact your regular ebay dealer won't give a **** even if it IS all proven to be true.