Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller
- Thread starter Frunkstar
- Start date
Trying to get it out ASAP.
Its pretty raw, no production.
Everyone is in work. Please be patient, we will try and get it out today.
Its pretty raw, no production.
Everyone is in work. Please be patient, we will try and get it out today.
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
RobbieZombbie said:
I don't know Jeff, I've never bought anything from Jeff, but I do know that if you've been "selling for years" and you can't tell that something is wrong with the Kenner logo on the baggie you probably shouldn't be selling. That paint job is really bad.
As someone who knows nothing about baggies, even i can see that was painted by a 2 year old. Anyone selling that as genuine needs throwing under the bus.
Jason
aussiejames
Sith Lord
"I know one of my soures was a guy called Gratson cant remeber his first name but spent £1000's of pounds with him which is the source of most of my SW-a , b and d, which the text is not right i been told and only found out last night."
http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1041901
http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1041901
Thanks for the efforts guys, it will be interesting to hear.
Fundamentally what else could we have expected? Jeff was always likely to come out with a statement saying it was not his problem. Had the group approached him beforehand then there is no doubt that this would have been the same answer, the only thing that might have been different is that Jeff closes down the opportunity to highlight that they came from him.
However lets assume he is being truthful here, as I like to assume people are, fundamentally it still results in the following:
1) There are now potentially hundreds of fake baggies in the hobby, ensuring that collecting of these has become incredibly difficult and fraught with problems.
2) Other collectors who aren't aware of the problem will pay high prices for fake items.
3) Puts at question any other items people have bought from him.
4) Refunding is fine to a point, but the person who has bought three sales down the line can never get their money more than likely.
5) Mistrust in the community and division.
If this is genuine, and lets hope it is, it comes from him:
1) Being completely negligent as a buyer. I understand if you buy in bulk this can happen, but after questions have been raised and fakes pointed out, one wonders why you would not go and check everything.
2) Being completely negligent as a seller. Fakes, or potential fakes, have been pointed out to him on a few occasions, yet you resell and continue to not question your own mechanisms.
Let's hope Jeff can fix this as best he can, and he will need to rebuild the trust of buyers in the community.
Fundamentally what else could we have expected? Jeff was always likely to come out with a statement saying it was not his problem. Had the group approached him beforehand then there is no doubt that this would have been the same answer, the only thing that might have been different is that Jeff closes down the opportunity to highlight that they came from him.
However lets assume he is being truthful here, as I like to assume people are, fundamentally it still results in the following:
1) There are now potentially hundreds of fake baggies in the hobby, ensuring that collecting of these has become incredibly difficult and fraught with problems.
2) Other collectors who aren't aware of the problem will pay high prices for fake items.
3) Puts at question any other items people have bought from him.
4) Refunding is fine to a point, but the person who has bought three sales down the line can never get their money more than likely.
5) Mistrust in the community and division.
If this is genuine, and lets hope it is, it comes from him:
1) Being completely negligent as a buyer. I understand if you buy in bulk this can happen, but after questions have been raised and fakes pointed out, one wonders why you would not go and check everything.
2) Being completely negligent as a seller. Fakes, or potential fakes, have been pointed out to him on a few occasions, yet you resell and continue to not question your own mechanisms.
Let's hope Jeff can fix this as best he can, and he will need to rebuild the trust of buyers in the community.
This whole saga has been pretty crazy.
On Tuesday night the 5 of us (me Richard H, Grant, Stuart and Peter) were recording the next podcast episode (episode 32) which is due out on Sunday or Monday (hopefully). News of this broke just before we were going to record. We all instantly realised that this was a big deal, who wouldn't. It was a big story which was big news. I actually suggested that maybe we should delay recording for a week to let everything sink in and figure out whats what.
Having said that the others suggested that we record our show anyway and I was happy to go with the flow. That said, we were all massively distracted. Two members of the podcast even commented on this thread and Facebook whilst I was recording my NA section, the cheeky buggers!
So there we are: an episode recorded, but with no reference to the scandal and crimes being mentioned in it through fear of being out of date or inaccurate when it is eventually edited and released. Our release date wasn't due until Sunday or Monday as previously mentioned. A lot can happen in a few days.
Fast forward a few hours (early Wednesday morning), Grant announces that he has spoken with Jeff and he is prepared to come on and be interviewed/interrogated. The 5 of us then have several discussions regarding, if this is a good idea or not. If we even need to get involved, if this should be part of the next episode or a stand alone podcast. Speaking for myself, I was massively cautious about this tack but we ultimately decide that no harm can come of recording it. If it's not worth it then we forget about it, but if it's interesting then we can release it.
For a few hours we were discussing who it should be doing the interview. At this point we didn't have a structure, a question bank and had lots of reading to do (every post on this thread). Up until about 7.30pm last night I thought it was going to be Grant and Pete, as Stu was not available, Richard was doing another (Rebel Briefing) interview at 7.15pm and I had been in work all day and out of the loop until about 4pm. It was then suggested that as Grant knows Jeff (a bit), he shouldn't be involved and it should be me, Richard and Pete (Richard had now finished his other mini interview). I copied several of the key questions from this thread that everybody kept asking and wrote down several of my own. We had about 5 minutes to hatch out a plan.
We rolled with it. This is the scrappiest interview we have done. This is raw. There is no fancy editing, no sound effects, no laughs, no TVR podcast stuff or format. This is just our intro and the interview. This is how we can get it out so quick. I'm not even sure if we need to rerecord a small segment for episode 32, we haven't even discussed that yet. It'll be odd releasing 32 with no mention of this whatsoever.
This has been a crazy 60+ hours for the community and there are a lot of pissed off people. I have one baggie. It is a SW B baggie. It is a fake baggie. I'm a bit pissed off about that.
We are standing by to have the accusers on (as Frank alone or all of the chaps involved in the claim) to reply to what has been said.
The recording has now been listened to by Grant and Stu and will get uploaded onto our podbean account as soon as Richard is home from work.
Not our best work by far. It highlights our weaknesses as interviewers (especially me as the most inexperienced) but it's important to get this message out there.
There is no question that Frank is one of the main authorities, if not the main authority on baggies. His identification of fakes is a 'knowledge and passion' fuelled discovery that has rocked the collecting world. Without contributors like Frank, the collecting community would be nothing.
This interview is an opportunity to get the guy who has been publically vilified as a manufacturer and distributer of fake baggies to get his side of the story over. We went into the interview agreeing that the baggies that were shown on the thread were fake as Frank has identified. We wanted to know if he was the faker as is claimed. We had questions and we wanted answers.
I think this will be uploaded by about 2.30PM UK time (less than 3 hours).
On Tuesday night the 5 of us (me Richard H, Grant, Stuart and Peter) were recording the next podcast episode (episode 32) which is due out on Sunday or Monday (hopefully). News of this broke just before we were going to record. We all instantly realised that this was a big deal, who wouldn't. It was a big story which was big news. I actually suggested that maybe we should delay recording for a week to let everything sink in and figure out whats what.
Having said that the others suggested that we record our show anyway and I was happy to go with the flow. That said, we were all massively distracted. Two members of the podcast even commented on this thread and Facebook whilst I was recording my NA section, the cheeky buggers!
So there we are: an episode recorded, but with no reference to the scandal and crimes being mentioned in it through fear of being out of date or inaccurate when it is eventually edited and released. Our release date wasn't due until Sunday or Monday as previously mentioned. A lot can happen in a few days.
Fast forward a few hours (early Wednesday morning), Grant announces that he has spoken with Jeff and he is prepared to come on and be interviewed/interrogated. The 5 of us then have several discussions regarding, if this is a good idea or not. If we even need to get involved, if this should be part of the next episode or a stand alone podcast. Speaking for myself, I was massively cautious about this tack but we ultimately decide that no harm can come of recording it. If it's not worth it then we forget about it, but if it's interesting then we can release it.
For a few hours we were discussing who it should be doing the interview. At this point we didn't have a structure, a question bank and had lots of reading to do (every post on this thread). Up until about 7.30pm last night I thought it was going to be Grant and Pete, as Stu was not available, Richard was doing another (Rebel Briefing) interview at 7.15pm and I had been in work all day and out of the loop until about 4pm. It was then suggested that as Grant knows Jeff (a bit), he shouldn't be involved and it should be me, Richard and Pete (Richard had now finished his other mini interview). I copied several of the key questions from this thread that everybody kept asking and wrote down several of my own. We had about 5 minutes to hatch out a plan.
We rolled with it. This is the scrappiest interview we have done. This is raw. There is no fancy editing, no sound effects, no laughs, no TVR podcast stuff or format. This is just our intro and the interview. This is how we can get it out so quick. I'm not even sure if we need to rerecord a small segment for episode 32, we haven't even discussed that yet. It'll be odd releasing 32 with no mention of this whatsoever.
This has been a crazy 60+ hours for the community and there are a lot of pissed off people. I have one baggie. It is a SW B baggie. It is a fake baggie. I'm a bit pissed off about that.
We are standing by to have the accusers on (as Frank alone or all of the chaps involved in the claim) to reply to what has been said.
The recording has now been listened to by Grant and Stu and will get uploaded onto our podbean account as soon as Richard is home from work.
Not our best work by far. It highlights our weaknesses as interviewers (especially me as the most inexperienced) but it's important to get this message out there.
There is no question that Frank is one of the main authorities, if not the main authority on baggies. His identification of fakes is a 'knowledge and passion' fuelled discovery that has rocked the collecting world. Without contributors like Frank, the collecting community would be nothing.
This interview is an opportunity to get the guy who has been publically vilified as a manufacturer and distributer of fake baggies to get his side of the story over. We went into the interview agreeing that the baggies that were shown on the thread were fake as Frank has identified. We wanted to know if he was the faker as is claimed. We had questions and we wanted answers.
I think this will be uploaded by about 2.30PM UK time (less than 3 hours).
Stuart Skinner
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2013
- Messages
- 3,165
- Reaction score
- 27
The Podcast is now live with Jeff.
You can listen directly at http://swtvrpodcast.podbean.com
or via iTunes http://swtvrpodcast.podbean.com/feed/
You can listen directly at http://swtvrpodcast.podbean.com
or via iTunes http://swtvrpodcast.podbean.com/feed/
finestcomics
Padawan
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 0
I'm assuming Jeff's reference to a "friend" who he sought advice/help from is Frank - why wasn't Jeff allowed to say his name?
fuzzybuzzytoys
Sith Lord
Listening...
Stuart Skinner
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Apr 29, 2013
- Messages
- 3,165
- Reaction score
- 27
finestcomics said:
If you keep listening we do allow it
finestcomics
Padawan
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 0
Stuart Skinner said:
Thanks for responding. However it sounds like Jeff was muzzled because he keeps asking "am I allowed to say the name." Was this a self-imposed thing, or did someone request it. And if so, who?
mr_palitoy
Sith Lord
Just finished listening. Jeff doesn't sound like a faker to me. Sounds like he bought a lot and resold them, as he's been a major buyer/seller of baggies for donkey's years.
Jason
Jason
finestcomics
Padawan
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 0
Appreciate you guys providing a platform for the other side.
I've listed my takeaways after hearing this podcast below:
- Probably should have made a distinction on "returns/refunds" because complaints can stem from condition of the baggie (splits, dirty, discoloured), and actual "suspect" baggies. I'm sure even reputable sellers on eBay have to deal with a ratio of 90% good, 10% returned, especially when you're selling in a hobby where people want to have stuff graded, aren't happy with the assigned grade, or just the run of the mill flakes and time wasters. Throwing them aside in a bin if they are split, discoloured, foggy or have a faded ink impression doesn't necessitate it being taken out of circulation or to not be sold.
- The span of time of 4 years Frank gave where a dialogue began of notifying Jeff about fakes seems to contradict the endorsement Frank gave on RS less than 3 years ago, calling Jeff an honest seller. Frank sort of addressed it when I shared the quote on page 10 of this thread, but it's absent of the context where he really went to town in that RS thread to defend Jeff, including the stern and repeated warnings to Mark about the harm naming/shaming does to a sellers reputation - advice he didn't seem to follow himself here.
- Beyond him sounding sincere, Jeff's story is consistent with his past posts (which includes email responses shared publicly), manner of addressing issues brought to his attention by disatisfed buyers, and a willingness to refund. With this podcast, we've also been told that he cooperated with what sounded like a "sting" operation on the guy at FF. The community having it's back up over TT doesn't make it right to drag someone's name through the mud via heresay and an absence of evidence he produced any of these baggies. In the face of this thread, the point of contention for me remains that this should have been done in a way involving Jeff, and only escalating it to a naming/shaming IF either there was a signficant pattern of "suspect" baggies directly coming from him, or if he was unwilling to refund.
- Some of the accusations need to be proven - the burden is on this investigative team to provide this. If they can't, the "team" needs to issue a statement of retraction or correction. Jeff didn't seek legal advise or counsel to even speak about this publicly, so it's proper the accusers follow up on these claims or remove them from public record for posterity and accuracy.
The positives are we have a visual reference for comparison, and a seller who seems to be willing to cooperate if any "suspect" baggies are in his possession, and if he is ultimately asked to take them out of circulation. He's even suggested having someone go to his place and see them being taken out of their baggies and/or being destroyed.
Not only Jeff, but there is no excuse moving forward for anyone to sell these now.
I'd also hope the same "team" who started this are being equally vigilant in monitoring online selling environments to put any person being caught selling these through the ringer.
I've listed my takeaways after hearing this podcast below:
- Probably should have made a distinction on "returns/refunds" because complaints can stem from condition of the baggie (splits, dirty, discoloured), and actual "suspect" baggies. I'm sure even reputable sellers on eBay have to deal with a ratio of 90% good, 10% returned, especially when you're selling in a hobby where people want to have stuff graded, aren't happy with the assigned grade, or just the run of the mill flakes and time wasters. Throwing them aside in a bin if they are split, discoloured, foggy or have a faded ink impression doesn't necessitate it being taken out of circulation or to not be sold.
- The span of time of 4 years Frank gave where a dialogue began of notifying Jeff about fakes seems to contradict the endorsement Frank gave on RS less than 3 years ago, calling Jeff an honest seller. Frank sort of addressed it when I shared the quote on page 10 of this thread, but it's absent of the context where he really went to town in that RS thread to defend Jeff, including the stern and repeated warnings to Mark about the harm naming/shaming does to a sellers reputation - advice he didn't seem to follow himself here.
- Beyond him sounding sincere, Jeff's story is consistent with his past posts (which includes email responses shared publicly), manner of addressing issues brought to his attention by disatisfed buyers, and a willingness to refund. With this podcast, we've also been told that he cooperated with what sounded like a "sting" operation on the guy at FF. The community having it's back up over TT doesn't make it right to drag someone's name through the mud via heresay and an absence of evidence he produced any of these baggies. In the face of this thread, the point of contention for me remains that this should have been done in a way involving Jeff, and only escalating it to a naming/shaming IF either there was a signficant pattern of "suspect" baggies directly coming from him, or if he was unwilling to refund.
- Some of the accusations need to be proven - the burden is on this investigative team to provide this. If they can't, the "team" needs to issue a statement of retraction or correction. Jeff didn't seek legal advise or counsel to even speak about this publicly, so it's proper the accusers follow up on these claims or remove them from public record for posterity and accuracy.
The positives are we have a visual reference for comparison, and a seller who seems to be willing to cooperate if any "suspect" baggies are in his possession, and if he is ultimately asked to take them out of circulation. He's even suggested having someone go to his place and see them being taken out of their baggies and/or being destroyed.
Not only Jeff, but there is no excuse moving forward for anyone to sell these now.
I'd also hope the same "team" who started this are being equally vigilant in monitoring online selling environments to put any person being caught selling these through the ringer.
fuzzybuzzytoys
Sith Lord
Just finished listening too. I hope that Frank will now broadcast his side of the story in the same format where he can back up his accusations.
naughtyjedi
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2014
- Messages
- 1,082
- Reaction score
- 93
finestcomics said:
We never told Jeff he could or couldnt say any name, he was being ultra cautious as he didnt (IMHO) want to drag anyone in. I never had a scooby on who he meant until half way through when he mentioned it. But we did say that he should just go ahead and say names and if there was anything contentious we could redact. But I dont believe that occurred. Rich edited out a bit of rambling and waffle.
Finished listening
Personally I doubt he made them but I do think he knowingly sold fakes - possibly because he didn't believe they were fake.
He seemed rather unwilling to destroy the fakes which were sent back to him. Careful use of 'not purposely' sold on. He says at the end that he disagreed with Frank on some baggies not being right, and kept them in his collection - there isn't a big stretch there to selling them again, if he admits to not believing they are fake.
Edited to add, that the above is just my opinion and gut feel from listening to the podcast. It would be great to hear Frank's side.
Personally I doubt he made them but I do think he knowingly sold fakes - possibly because he didn't believe they were fake.
He seemed rather unwilling to destroy the fakes which were sent back to him. Careful use of 'not purposely' sold on. He says at the end that he disagreed with Frank on some baggies not being right, and kept them in his collection - there isn't a big stretch there to selling them again, if he admits to not believing they are fake.
Edited to add, that the above is just my opinion and gut feel from listening to the podcast. It would be great to hear Frank's side.
finestcomics
Padawan
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2013
- Messages
- 173
- Reaction score
- 0
naughtyjedi said:
Thanks, appreciate you clarifying.
Richard_H
Grand Master
finestcomics said:
Not at all. Jeff was constantly asking if he's allowed to name people with nothing from us. At first we weren't sure if some good people (like Marc H) would want to be named who aren't in the original post but then we thought - nah go with it.
Dannywhiteley
Jedi Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2015
- Messages
- 556
- Reaction score
- 0
maxf said:
FWIW I agree. He seems straight enough but then I don't know him from Adam. What he says though is that the returns got checked and either opened or quarantined if he wasn't sure, but didn't knowingly resell. If someone comes back and says they want a refund it's their knowledge and experience against his. He may disagree, afterall the buyer may be trying it on or had buyers remorse, we've all had some know it all want a refund for silly reasons. So when (as he states) known baggie experts buy from him and are happy then if you valued their knowledge and experience you would assume they are legit.
Personally I dont think he made them and very possiby didn't even sell them intentionally.
In over 15 years & about 4- 5 thousand vtg starwars buy dealings on ebay worldwide I've only been burnt by 3 separate sellers, 1 A notorious moc faker,you know who! & a guy in the states over some repro weapons many moons ago before they were all the rage & This guy jec10c or whatever it is. One was a Rebel commando about 5 years ago & the other was a Hoth Probot baggie a year or 2 ago . I noticed at the time others had left grievance regarding the reb commando but I never bothered as it seemed cheap & I wasn't sure on the probot until several months later when I resold it & had it returned to me as having been in an undocumented baggie, I know little or nothing about baggies but these 2 were wrong uns!
Those hand painted ones. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: WTF!
Those hand painted ones. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: WTF!
RobbieZombbie
Youngling
2 questions to think about...
1. If Jeff is NOT manufacturing these baggies then who is?
2. Was this a one time sale from the seller who Jeff bought them from and that seller blew his load all at one time? Or is this person still out there making more?
1. If Jeff is NOT manufacturing these baggies then who is?
2. Was this a one time sale from the seller who Jeff bought them from and that seller blew his load all at one time? Or is this person still out there making more?
Caswellbot
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,072
- Reaction score
- 0
Am I right in thinking that the "hand painted" kenner baggie of which a pic was posted in this thread as well as the red stickers meccano baggies are meant to have been sold by Jeff?
If so, one thing I would seriously question is how someone who has a thousand baggies and has been collecting them for so long isn't able to spot the blatant fakes that have been posted on this thread. Especially if they have other examples they can use for comparison??
I'm not suggesting that those in question were made by Jeff personally but if he did sell them and didn't spot they were fake, he is either completely naive (which I fail to believe given his past dealings in the world of baggies ) or he knowingly turned a blind eye.
If so, one thing I would seriously question is how someone who has a thousand baggies and has been collecting them for so long isn't able to spot the blatant fakes that have been posted on this thread. Especially if they have other examples they can use for comparison??
I'm not suggesting that those in question were made by Jeff personally but if he did sell them and didn't spot they were fake, he is either completely naive (which I fail to believe given his past dealings in the world of baggies ) or he knowingly turned a blind eye.
Caswellbot said:
That's where I'm at. The talk of not needing the money doesn't sway me - I know millionaires who are tight as arseholes! Towards the end of the interview he also mentioned spending thousands and not wanting to lose money.
Lee Bullock
Jedi Knight
I have spent time thinking about this... I know Jeff through Marc Hockley and the FF events. I have already found Jeff to be a lovely bloke without a bad bone in his body. If Jeff Glanville is a scammer and a faker then I have no judgment of character at all. I have listened to the podcast and my feeling is that Jeff has been collecting without good enough knowledge base. Does that make Jeff a bit naive - probably... Does it make him a scammer in my opinion - NO! Jeff's mistakes has had some repercussions on the hobby but this isnt like McWilliams/Toy Toni/Billy Boy. Jeff goes to shows where at any point he could be called out. If he was faking these do you think he would do this, given that McWilliams/Toy Toni/Billy Boy disappeared off the face of the earth? With respect to Jeff he is a placid, non-confrontational guy who I think wouldnt want such confrontation if he was knowingly selling fakes.
Please - can we cool our jets, and let Jeff make amends here. Really the best way for this to go is for Frank and a VR representative to go to Jeff's place and audit his stock.
Jeff is a friend to many here, including myself - lets not turn this into a witch hunt.
Peace out
Lee
Please - can we cool our jets, and let Jeff make amends here. Really the best way for this to go is for Frank and a VR representative to go to Jeff's place and audit his stock.
Jeff is a friend to many here, including myself - lets not turn this into a witch hunt.
Peace out
Lee
Dannywhiteley
Jedi Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2015
- Messages
- 556
- Reaction score
- 0
3 questions seemed to be asked numerous times.
Did you make fake baggies?
Did you knowingly sell fake baggies?
What do you do with any alleged fake baggies.
Beyond this it doesn't seem there was much else you could ask.
Did you make fake baggies?
Did you knowingly sell fake baggies?
What do you do with any alleged fake baggies.
Beyond this it doesn't seem there was much else you could ask.
