Competition Etiquette

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I can appreciate that collectors with knowledge and experience of particular card rarities often regret sharing the information publicly, particularly if new collectors then start chasing after those pieces just because they are rare and the result is a big price increase. Unfortunately it just leads to collectors not being willing to share info and help others.

A new collector chasing after a rare piece does not result in a big price increase as for this too happen two collectors must be willing to pay in excess of its value at an auction at the same time.

Fair point but It does raise buyer expectations though and there are lots of examples of the second example selling for way less than the first.

I would agree the 30 Back FX7 is a good example just because one sells for 7K doesn't mean the next one will!

 

[olisuds]

The idea of a gentleman's agreement where one does not bid against the other sounds idyllic but when it comes to really rare items then you have got to be getting something in return. If you want the really rare items then you have to accept a level of resistance and competition unless collecting is a popularity contest for you. If someone wants me to duck in an Auction then they have to give me a good reason for doing so.

You have to consider that the same collectors you are competing against so ruthlessly are often the ones you are also asking for information from. It's called biting the hand that feeds. You can't expect collectors to willingly give you information knowing that you are then going to use it against them and go after the same pieces they need for their runs.

There are collectors out there that I would not compete with on a piece we both needed regardless of what they have or haven't given me. For the simple reason that they have been collecting the run far longer than I have, and it's one of the few remaining pieces they need to complete the run and lastly the knowledge I've gained has come from talking with them or reading and researching the posts they created in the past. I appreciate this might not be everyone's approach and perhaps I'm just not much of a competitive collector anymore but i've certainly not found it detrimental to my collecting. You don't need to always have the attitude, what's in it for me.

 

[maxf]

It's a fair point Ed, but I think it's unavoidable really - if there were 5 mates collecting something then you could expect them to work together, but there are thousands of people collecting vintage and many interested in even the most niche areas... any gentleman's agreement to let something go would just open the door to another party.

In the past I've worked with friends at auctions and we've shared what we'd pay and only one of us bid... there's always someone else bidding though! I'll certainly stand aside and not bid something up I know a friend needs for their run - if I know they want it more than me... they'll end up with it anyway and we both lose if not.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

The idea of a gentleman's agreement where one does not bid against the other sounds idyllic but when it comes to really rare items then you have got to be getting something in return. If you want the really rare items then you have to accept a level of resistance and competition unless collecting is a popularity contest for you. If someone wants me to duck in an Auction then they have to give me a good reason for doing so.

You have to consider that the same collectors you are competing against so ruthlessly are often the ones you are also asking for information from. It's called biting the hand that feeds. You can't expect collectors to willingly give you information knowing that you are then going to use it against them and go after the same pieces they need for their runs.

There are collectors out there that I would not compete with on a piece we both needed regardless of what they have or haven't given me. For the simple reason that they have been collecting the run far longer than I have, and it's one of the few remaining pieces they need to complete the run and lastly the knowledge I've gained has come from talking with them or reading and researching the posts they created in the past. I appreciate this might not be everyone's approach and perhaps I'm just not much of a competitive collector anymore but i've certainly not found it detrimental to my collecting. You don't need to always have the attitude, what's in it for me.

Firstly you posted a 45b rarity list on the forum which you have recently deleted, I did not ask you to do this so when you say biting the hand that feeds you I am unsure what you mean. If you are collecting a specific cardback and you choose to post a rarity list of that cardback then that is up to you but don't cry about it when people use it to their own advantage.

To my knowledge I have never competed against you as I did not bid on any 45B's in the last Vectis Auction and the 45B collection I just bought was a private sale so had nothing to do with you.

My collecting style maybe different to others on this forum but I am fine with that, I am a collector (or Investor as some like to call me) who tries to buy the pieces he needs when they become available, isn't that what we are all trying to do?

 

[olisuds]

You seem to be the one crying because I removed the list.

But that's fine Anthony, just stop bombarding me and other collectors with constant questions about rarity. You can work it out for yourself from now on.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

You seem to be the one crying because I removed the list.

But that's fine Anthony, just stop bombarding me and other collectors with constant questions about rarity. You can work it out for yourself from now on.

I have not heard anyone crying about the fact you took it down I just think it is a little sad you felt the need to remove it as I thought you were all for helping people!

I have no need to ask you anything else so rest assured I won't bother you again, what I do with other collectors is not your concern!

 

[edd_jedi]

Thanks for all the replies, some interesting points from both sides. I agree it is a bit idealistic to expect collecting to be fair, and I also agree it can come across as a bit selfish to either feel you 'deserve' a piece more than someone else, or to only help others if there's something in it for you. But I do think there's some truth in the 'biting the hand that feeds you' comment, as mentioned in my first post I have been helped out many times before and I have definitely been on both the giving and receiving end of collecting 'karma'. If you're a collector that only takes without giving anything back, whether that be advice, research, or simply giving somebody the heads up when you see something they want, I'm sure it will come back to haunt you at some point.

 

[palitoyjunky]

V interesting read to say the least :!: :!:

 

[Andyclarke]

I do think it is important to share, but not necessarily everything especially if it feels it might be detrimental to your collecting. If we don't share though what's the point of this forum. Over the years I've hugely enjoyed helping mates and fellow forum members acquiring pieces and gotten loads of pleasure knowing that I've been part of their collecting journey.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

Just for Clarity I do help other collectors with bits I am not collecting as sometimes I get offered stuff I don't want or get made aware of their availability. Where it gets complicated and often tense is where both myself and someone I know wants the same item especially if it is in an auction and especially if it is rare, but I guess that is what this whole post is about. You are then left with the dilemma do you tie your shoe laces when the item comes up or do you bid, either way you're ****ed!, If you bid you piss off your friend if you don't you piss off yourself!

 

[palitoyjunky]

I do think it is important to share, but not necessarily everything especially if it feels it might be detrimental to your collecting. If we don't share though what's the point of this forum. Over the years I've hugely enjoyed helping mates and fellow forum members acquiring pieces and gotten loads of pleasure knowing that I've been part of their collecting journey.

Well said Andy 8)

 

[UKS]

Surely as a community you share the stuff that you are not trying to buy?

"I've seen a great deal on ebay - Thought you may like it!"

Or "Have you all seen Vectis?"

That's community. Not colluding. Not bidding gainst each other is actually doing the community a disservice. That fellow collector could be selling that piece to buy a different one - and you are stealing from them the fair value of that product.

You would not like that to happen to you - So don't do it to someone else.

There is only a short step between that type of collusion (princes suppressed) to the other (bidding up each others lots to con the mark who is buying)

 

[edd_jedi]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

 

[Ruby2511]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

Totally agree Edd, I personally like my loose collection, good honest and played with, let's call it "fatigued" and "well worn". and collected on a budget and the collection is for me, not for an investment, I'm not a rich man will probably never be, I'm comfortable and can afford the odd piece when I can and gifts from others for birthdays and Christmas.

I see many listings on a well known site and think WTF!!! why is that so expensive? Like you stated in your post "they're damned toys". But prices are being driven up so items that are wanted to complete a collection or run are often well out of reach. I personally need around 20 loose figures to finish off my collection, I'm in no rush and will enjoy getting them as and when I can and hopefully when prices either drop or stabilise.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

So if anyone on the forum was selling their collection in the future then they would not want two impatient people bidding on the same thing as its bad for the community, that makes sense.

Just for clarity if buyers collude to not bid against each other at an auction to keep the price down is this acceptable to the collecting community?

Your argument is very biased towards buying, what happens when you're selling your rare items, surely it is acceptable for the seller to want or dream of the best price possible, many collectors may be selling for a specific financial reason, what about them or do you cease to exist within the community when you sell?

 

[Michael Sith]

I think what we are seeing here is a general consensus from vintage collectors, especially on this forum, where etiquette ( not just from a competitive perspective but from an overall perspective) this is a comradery built up from years of collecting and having a VESTED collecting interest in the hobby, I say hobby as that is what Edd is alluding to. That is the opposite end of the collecting spectrum to that of somebody looking at this as a form of investment. To compare the 2 is complete folly and an " investor" colllecting even though they enjoy the hobby.
I would not pay £1 or £2k for an item that I can put together as a reseal for £50 and enjoy the thrill of sourcing the components putting the item together and displaying for ME, not for an investment.

There is absoloutely nothing wrong with investors purchasing high end items even though that will ultimately drive the prices up for those said items.
An investor will also reach a point where they either cash in on there investment or leave as a legacy for family, fully understand that.

But, I ask this question, if the bottom fell out of the vintage market would you still collect? I know I would if a moc was 50 p I would buy it to own and display as it is part of what I love and I also love the comradery of the collecting community.

It becomes pointless to try to argue two opposite ends of the spectrum.

Again I have nothing against someone having an interest in the hobby and enough cash to invest, but also wrankles with me that those very same investors want to be part of the hobby for the love of it, as let's be honest it's simply not the case.

I am a great believer in being helpful, polite and agreeable, as that's how I live my life, I have perspective I love the hobby and would never over reach myself. That attitude may not make me a millionaire but I have my riches in other ways.

This forum in the main is for collectors who have an affinity with the hobby, enjoy the comradery and will help each other in a heartbeat, we are nor not exclusive, petulant or derisory and will always help with support information and assistance, that's what this particular forum is all about.

Again I have NO ISSUE with an investor collector, and to be fair that type of collector is usually transient which is the exact opposite of collectors for the hobby itself, who will research at great cost to time and effort for no gain financially but to PUT BACK into a hobby that gives them so much joy...that's the difference.

If an item came up that was rare and peanuts and I knew for example a member on here needed it for their collection and a member on here would collect it for an investment, then I know where my pm would go

 

[Ruby2511]

Lovely post Mike

 

[spoons]

Lovely post Mike

Ditto, sums up the forum completely. The fun is all about collecting. The bottom falls out of the market tomorrow it means more pieces to find

 

[coomber75]

interesting thread, have to say i have benefitted many time from people being kind enough to think of me or point me in the right direction, and when they have ive paid what i felt it was worth and could afford... i remember waiting months to get a yak as i wasnt willing to pay above 100.. ahh those wete the days!! id like to think ive done the same from time to time lwtting people know kf bits if i know they are after them. i do like to buy pieces that i want to hold on too and display, but then im pretty mainstream in my collecting so its not always crazy hard to achieve... well bar an sw back greedo for some reason hes a swine to find :lol:
my ethos collect what you love with what you are happy to lose if the bottom falls out!! end of the day i still will have the things i wanted to see around me

 

[Snaketibe]

Lovely post Mike

Ditto, sums up the forum completely. The fun is all about collecting. The bottom falls out of the market tomorrow it means more pieces to find

Ditto from me too. An excellent post, Mike.

Jeremy