Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Lafos]

Pin sized holes around the bubble ?!
None of my GM 45 backs have any pins around the bubble.
Could you provide more detailed pics of the pins of the AFA Stormie ?

- Thorsten -

 

[spoons]

Pin sized holes around the bubble ?!
None of my GM 45 backs have any pins around the bubble.
Could you provide more detailed pics of the pins of the AFA Stormie ?

- Thorsten -

top two holes are fairly clear on this pic, the side holes can be seen if you look hard enough and a shadow between the double-stem shows the base one

 

[Joe]

Not that I am particularly fond of Todd DeMartino (and he's not exactly my biggest fan either), I did find this interesting quote from him in an old RS thread:

Jason Joiner looked me in the eye back in the early 90's at FX in Orlando and Toyrific in NY and said that he made them among other things (proto R2, props, etc.).

He was referring to the Grey Limbed Snowtroopers.

Read into that what you will, I find it both telling and a bit confusing tbh. Todd seems to have known that Joiner was selling fakes in the 90's at US conventions yet he still went ahead and bought those Yak Mailers from him..hmm very strange (he still believes those Yak baggies/mailers are real yet seems adamant that everything else Jason had for sale was fake).

 

[tiefighterboy]

I highly doubt that someone bought all the tooling from Palitoy at an auction...then became friends with Toni.....and had the equipment to heat seal these. It is only common sense.


Maybe Arthur was a Janitor at the Palitoy factory.......bought all the machinery....all the tooling...all the cards...all the bubbles......sold them Toni........and Toni had the foresight to know how valuable this would be decades later and invest tons of cash.........I think holding up a bank would make more ****ing sense.

I could make stories up about this all day long...........Arthur goes to the Palitoy Dump...meetd Auggie and they begin to dig. They unearth the jigs and fixtures from Palitoy....and....................they meet Toni and Jason.......Toni buys all this stuff and......................Nevermind. :lol:

 

[Grant_C]

Nevermind.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Nevermind.

Exactly.

 

[x-pack]

I know it's far fetched, but then so is somebody just happening to come across 25,000 unused cards and bubbles :? I find that harder to believe than somebody getting hold of factory equipment such as this http://www.royalinkandmachinery.com/blister-packing-machine.htm

I don't know much about either of these people - Toni or Jason. Probably in the same boat as most people who just don't know what to believe.

 

[Grant_C]

Neither Jason or Toni has mentioned heavy duty machinery. Lets not get side tracked.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Neither Jason or Toni has mentioned heavy duty machinery. Lets not get side tracked.

I doubt super glue or cum would pass the inspection test. :lol:

 

[Caswellbot]

Hi guys, I commented earlier in the thread based on my experiences. I will try to flesh it out a little bit more until I can get in touch with someone. I would hasten to add that I am completely impartial in this whole event and can only go on what I have been "told." I would also like to add that I have never met Jason Joiner but am obviously aware of him. I have, however met Toni a number of times and he has always been spot on in conversations. Very friendly guy.

So here goes. I was told by an old school UK collector/ dealer a number of years back (who's name I do know but will not reveal as I don't think it is right before I know I can get in touch with him) that Toni bought a large number of unused cards and bubbles and spent time looking for mint figures to buy to put on the cards. He claimed to have sold mint figures to Toni suspecting that they were going to be used specifically for this purpose. I would not go as far as to say that the person who told me this is a "friend" but I have dealt with him several times and from my perspective he has/ had no reason to lie to me. He has always been good to me. Of course it is possible that he himself was misinformed.

I was however also told yesterday by another source that Jim Stevenson had recalled that Toni had bought a load of stuff including some unused cardbacks. (No mention of bubbles.) I do not want to inundate Jim with messages/ phone calls as I know he has been contacted already about this matter but next time I see him I will ask him if he could add any more to what he told my friend.

So why haven't I said something earlier about this? Well because we are dealing with second hand information that dates back many years. I am not going to come on the boards and start slinging accusations or relaying 2nd hand information of this magintude off the cuff without good reason. (I.E. now) I do not want to get embroiled in the debate but I think the information I have provided is at least of some use.

Edd is right. Only the people involved really know and I am not one of them. I am no expert on tooling and what would be required to make this possible so will not comment. Perhaps Todd or one or two other guys might be able to shed some more light on just how difficult/ expensive it might be to create what is necessary to carry out the process? Are we talking a few thousand £'s or tens of thousands or what??

I believe that people will not necessarily get the answers/ proof that will be necessary to get complete closure on this but I may be wrong. I do however hope that this thread ends amicably. I have owned cards that I suspect to have been from Toytoni in the past although I have not bought from him directly my self and I have looked at them closely. If they were not "factory sealed" then I didn't/ couldn't tell the difference.

Chris.

 

[tiefighterboy]

To get tooling/fixture made plus the machine...no Idea back then...I would suspect this would have been at least a $10,000 investment and this does not include the labor and housing. Maybe you could have bought a machine used and somehow either made makeshift tooling or bought it direct from Palitoy (I doubt), but you would still be faced with half that amount. The quality of these seals is dead on, so this was not an amateur attempt, if it ever happened at all. Maybe the cards are the ones we see commonly called proofs...but that is not my area of expertise.

 

[ace]

Not that I am particularly fond of Todd DeMartino (and he's not exactly my biggest fan either), I did find this interesting quote from him in an old RS thread:

Jason Joiner looked me in the eye back in the early 90's at FX in Orlando and Toyrific in NY and said that he made them among other things (proto R2, props, etc.).

He was referring to the Grey Limbed Snowtroopers.

Read into that what you will, I find it both telling and a bit confusing tbh. Todd seems to have known that Joiner was selling fakes in the 90's at US conventions yet he still went ahead and bought those Yak Mailers from him..hmm very strange (he still believes those Yak baggies/mailers are real yet seems adamant that everything else Jason had for sale was fake).

really Joe " i lookked him in the eye at two different events and said ?" get real this guys a nutter

Joe you said that you might come back to me with some real points to respond to , i said if it was for a indervigal item i would be happy to respond to that .

you are now digging up crazy peoples random trash of things i have never said or done with people i have not met sorry i am done on this its a wast of my time.

look if you or anyone has any real points that relate to a real situation involved a real items that i have sold then i will be happy to respond , i am not going to even bother with rubbish like this above its trash and just someone badmouthing me and not even doing it in a convinsing way, would you bother to even responfd if it was you Joe ?

if anyone has any real questions then maybe its just best to Email me at Jason@[email protected]

one last point everyone seems to have missed , has anyone ever bought any German cards from anywhere else that did not originate from Toni ? its just something i wanted to know from you all ?

you all know where to reach me now , j

 

[ace]

To get tooling/fixture made plus the machine...no Idea back then...I would suspect this would have been at least a $10,000 investment and this does not include the labor and housing. Maybe you could have bought a machine used and somehow either made makeshift tooling or bought it direct from Palitoy (I doubt), but you would still be faced with half that amount. The quality of these seals is dead on, so this was not an amateur attempt, if it ever happened at all. Maybe the cards are the ones we see commonly called proofs...but that is not my area of expertise.

there is no tooling needed the bubbles were already there as was most other things , all you needed to do was find a way to attach the bubbles to the cards .

it was told to me many years a go that a hot ion tipe device and a small waited metal have vice could achieve the result needed, and i was told this could costs as little as around £300 to have this made and the rest of the thing needed is labour of putting the parts together.

its not hard if you think about it you are heatign the plastic and pushing the plasitc tight to the card ?

where there is a will there is a way i think the old saying gos


if no one wants to berleaves thats fine then be happy

i am off

 

[x-pack]

To get tooling/fixture made plus the machine...no Idea back then...I would suspect this would have been at least a $10,000 investment and this does not include the labor and housing. Maybe you could have bought a machine used and somehow either made makeshift tooling or bought it direct from Palitoy (I doubt), but you would still be faced with half that amount. The quality of these seals is dead on, so this was not an amateur attempt, if it ever happened at all. Maybe the cards are the ones we see commonly called proofs...but that is not my area of expertise.

That's what I thought about proofs, but Joe cleared it up.

Sorry if the tooling thing went off track a bit but I did think it to be quite an important point if we are to believe that someone has been sealing up cards in the 90's. If there is any truth to this then how was it done? Another time. Let's face it though, we'll never get to the bottom of it. No-one is going to own up. It seems to be one persons word against anothers

 

[jimbody1]

Not that I am particularly fond of Todd DeMartino (and he's not exactly my biggest fan either), I did find this interesting quote from him in an old RS thread:

Jason Joiner looked me in the eye back in the early 90's at FX in Orlando and Toyrific in NY and said that he made them among other things (proto R2, props, etc.).

He was referring to the Grey Limbed Snowtroopers.

Read into that what you will, I find it both telling and a bit confusing tbh. Todd seems to have known that Joiner was selling fakes in the 90's at US conventions yet he still went ahead and bought those Yak Mailers from him..hmm very strange (he still believes those Yak baggies/mailers are real yet seems adamant that everything else Jason had for sale was fake).

really Joe " i lookked him in the eye at two different events and said ?" get real this guys a nutter

Joe you said that you might come back to me with some real points to respond to , i said if it was for a indervigal item i would be happy to respond to that .

you are now digging up crazy peoples random trash of things i have never said or done with people i have not met sorry i am done on this its a wast of my time.

look if you or anyone has any real points that relate to a real situation involved a real items that i have sold then i will be happy to respond , i am not going to even bother with rubbish like this above its trash and just someone badmouthing me and not even doing it in a convinsing way, would you bother to even responfd if it was you Joe ?

if anyone has any real questions then maybe its just best to Email me at Jason@[email protected]

one last point everyone seems to have missed , has anyone ever bought any German cards from anywhere else that did not originate from Toni ? its just something i wanted to know from you all ?

you all know where to reach me now , j

erm yes actually I have, I bought a Leia hoth and a second bossk mocs from a guy in Germany actually the bossk was a little tired but the leia graded an 85nm+ when afa'd the seals were exactly as toni's the guy had owned them for a few years and he got one from another guy in Germany and the other from the states.

 

[spoons]

The German question could be settled fairly easily

Where are the cards with price tags and shelf wear?

Where are the German collectors with childhood memories?

Without those I'd be inclined to believe Jason, although if something never existed how can it be fake?

If they are out there and the seals are the same then no problem

 

[plantman]

The German question could be settled fairly easily

Where are the cards with price tags and shelf wear?

Where are the German collectors with childhood memories?

Without those I'd be inclined to believe Jason, although if something never existed how can it be fake?

If they are out there and the seals are the same then no problem

Some very valid points made here, as for buying these from germany, in 15 years im sure german collectors would have bought tons of these as they were distributed.

 

[benny100]

The German question could be settled fairly easily

Where are the cards with price tags and shelf wear?

Where are the German collectors with childhood memories?

Without those I'd be inclined to believe Jason, although if something never existed how can it be fake?

If they are out there and the seals are the same then no problem

Some very valid points made here, as for buying these from germany, in 15 years im sure german collectors would have bought tons of these as they were distributed.

I own none of these MOCS, have not dealt with Jason or Toni, yet going from all the pages of posts the above has hit the nail on the head for me. Fascinating stuff all the same but without an admittance of guilt or hardcore proof from either camp it'll just remain he said, he said. (Which I'll read from start to finish!)

 

[**Delboy75**]

Not mine but a quick google search.
PHOTOS NOW DELETED DUE TO IMAGE RIGHTS AS I DONT WANT ANYONE MOANING TO EDD LOL.


Btw Arthur did not just sell to Toni, he sold other stuff to other dealers including boxes of meccano jawa's.
Sound like he was a good fella to know.

 

[Caswellbot]

Im getting visions of Arthur Daley from minder! Rolling up a shutter to reveal a warehouse full of star wars...