TOYTONI said:
Several friends have contacted me regarding a post by a certain Jason Joiner and having read his "story" I feel its necessary to reply.
hi Toni its been some time and back then we did know each other a bit better than "a certain Jason Joiner" but hay if you want to make it out like he hardly knew each other back then that's fine mate , but we did know each other and met up a few times at Sandon Park and Donnington , and we first met at would con in 1987 where you first offer me one of your Daleks if you remember ? I remember meeting you very well and our conversations so lets refresh your mind .
TOYTONI said:
This story is mainly fantasy with a few facts thrown in.
well you can take one of two paths Toni cant you ?
you can say I am lying or tell the real story behind all this ?
it looks like you are going to go head to hard and say I am lying ok, it did not have to go that way , I understand you are in a bit of a corner now and there are only a few opshions for you now.
first off I am sorry as I just did not know that what I let out the bag was not common knolage with collators and it had put you in a awkward place .
but you put your self there and if you feel that this is your only way out calling me a lier then so be it , I also have no choice than to tell everything i know now .
sorry mate I really am as it did not have to go this way, but i have stopped taking this sort of thing now day and will stand my ground and defend my self , something i should have done for a long time.
TOYTONI said:
As a one time major dealer and expert in Star Wars it is bizarre that after some 25 years Mr Joiner should now come up with this "information" out of the blue!
well Toni you do not trade at any of my events and never really did and I have not been to Barry Potters Sandown show for many years if that is still your haunt ?
by the way Toni thank you for calling me a expert in Star Wars that is noted and
I respect you for saying that.
TOYTONI said:
I have been dealing in many different types of vintage toys for over 30 years including Star Wars for about 25 years . Ive been on Ebay since 1998 and have had 2 websites Toytoni and Zoomertoys running for the last 16 years. I have not seen or had any communication with Mr Joiner for the best of 20 years nor have I heard of him making such comments elsewhere.
I have never said any thing on line about this as there is no more that around 50 posts anywere from me on line outside of my work with events.
frankly I just do not have time to go on these places and as I am dyslexic its not the best format for me to comuncate with others so I rarely talk about this stuff other than meeting up with the odd dealer and collctors at my events.
I have not talked on line about these things but it is a thing I do talk about when talking about the old days , like the one of buying 48 Boba Fett dolls at £8 each ☺ its fun to go over the old days and your figures is an amazing find and something people love to here about.
I have not just came out with this I have told people about this from time to time for years , till the last two days I really did not know that there was any thing odd or important to anyone about this matter but over the last few days I see there is in fact a lot that is important about what I know and what did happen .
right now i feel people should know the facts on this stuff and really this stuff is what it is as I do not think any one would think less of it as all the parts are real and it's the only way people are going to get some of these rare figure backs so why not just say what they are they will still sell Toni , they still look the business.
TOYTONI said:
I did indeed buy various toys from a dealer called Arthur in the 80s and early 90s these included tin toys , robots, TV related and carded Star Wars figures. He had a reputation for getting old stock and had good contacts in the regular toy trade.
Arthur Baily was a very good contact indeed and I know lots of people got amazing things from him over the years , as he lived in Peterboror he got lots of things from the north of the contory and places in lester like Geoffs toys where Geoff him self would ring Arthur and tell him when a good deal had came in , more about Geoffs toys afther this has all past but that is a grate story to tell also , and one that is not going to create drama ;-)
TOYTONI said:
He was one of several dealers that I bought carded Star Wars from. He seemed a nice guy who seemed always short of cash and often offered items which he didn't exactly have but could get his hands on if he could make the sale in advance .
that's a very odd thing to say Toni that is not the Arthur I used to know an any way ? I was around 17 to 18 at that time and had been trading for 5 years and he alwases seemed to have cash for anything I found for him , when I found that Radicon Target Robot he offerd me £3,000 right away and in 1988 that was so much money you have to agree Toni ? you could still by a house in the UK up north for £6,000 back then mate ? , so to say he did not have money I know that is not coreact at all , and I do think you are painting a picture of him right there ? to use to reinforce your story later on ?
TOYTONI said:
So at times it wasn't clear if he actually had the goods or just new a man who had them .
well every time he came to me with stuff and I wanted to buy it and we agreed a price it turned up and I never got the opinun that he was trying to sell stuff before he bought things in at any time ? so again I have to say Toni I think you are laying down the foundations to paint your picture and how your story is going to go ?
TOYTONI said:
I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised
Thank you Toni , with out you conferming that there was a list it was going to be much harder for me to prove that what I am saying is truth and I will come to why this is important latter .
But that's why you painted the picture that Arthur had no money and offered stuff he did not have , I see what picture you are painting of Arthur but its not the truth is it mate. And I can prove this also.
there was a list this was something you were aware of but you claim that it never materialised ?, ok that's your story , but I am sorry that's just is not the case I will make some very good points latter so bear with me on this .
TOYTONI said:
I never saw any or was offered any samples from him . I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo
ok this is the interesting part , please bear with me if you care about any of this ?
so this person that dose not come through did in fact come through for you on a lot of carded figures , so he did come though on some figures and this is the interesting point Toni
ok you say that there was "German General Mills" and that's it for me Toni , these are the important point in your post , I am sorry but I have to go here now as you are showing that you are not telling the truth on this you are liying so I have to now make one of my points
until Arthur found this haul I had only ever found two used ESB backing cards ever in UK or Europe and that was with me travaling all around Europe and as I had many German frineds that also could not find any of these cards out there ether when ever I traveled to Germany back then and over the last 25 years I have never found any in situe at a flee market or in a collctors store in Germany so I came to
the conclushion back then they were ether very few ever released in Germay or that they were never Relesaed at all in Germany and they were regected card that were left somewere in a storage place .
so I only ever found in my time collcting 2 ESB cards and they both luckley had UK price labels on them one was a 4 lom the other I think if memrey serves a bespin guard figure so I found two total in 25 to 30 years of world travel , this was till Arthur told me about what he had found , and being the collator when he told me what was there I keept that info to my self and this stuff was beond rare it was amazing stuff , I felt these cards were ether unrelased cards or very very limated release cards that at one time was rejecrted and worth a lot of money indeed for what they are rare cards and un carded cards very cool indeed .
so for me this find that Arthur found was a unique find and i would recognise the selection anywhere.
TOYTONI said:
non of which came in trade boxes - in those days there wasn't that much interest in carded figures let alone in the outer boxes.
Now back to your statement and something I find very odd
some times people when they are trying to hide something they give up more info in avance of being ask to cover there story or back up there story in the future ?.
The interesting point here is no one is asking Toni anything about "trade boxes" ? I have not even menchiond "trade boxes" so why would Toni bring this up ?
also back then I collected trade boxesand so did many others , I know that Palitoy had really cool 48 figure boxes and I had frineds that also wanted them , and I did sell them from time to time so they were worth money even back then and they were very rare.
I think I got around £30 for a empty 48 box back then, bearing in mind a carded palitoy SW stormtrooper sold for around £20 or so so they were worth money , and if someone was a good custormer I sometimes gave them one as a think you for being a good customer.
I do feel Toni you are trying to cover up the fact that all these carded figures you have all of them did not come in any original boxes ? , its like you know thats odd ?,
its like you know that its odd as how can you have so many 100% mint cards when none of them came in the right size boxes when you found them ?
but then again if they came as I say they did as just cards then they would be 100% mint and there would never be any damage as they are in new condition , the interesting thing I want to know Toni have you ever sold a German card that the card is damaged ?
I would love to ask everyone in here that has ever bought a damaged German card from Toni there just might be one ? but is it only the one ? out of 25 years off selling these German cards ? now that is also an interesting point ?
TOYTONI said:
The fact that there was this list stirred up some gossip at the time about unused cards but as to whether they existed is unknown.
So again you agree there was gossip back at the time that there was these cards ?,
Toni you are the only one to have these German cars back then no one else apart from them being on that list Arthur had .
I am very sorry these are the smoking gun for me.
over the 25 years you are the only one that i saw selling figures that cards was on the list and the German cards have not turned up in any quwantrys anywhere apart from you , tell me please if I an wrong , can any one else clarify this for me i have been out the look fro 10 years ? impute is most welcome you all know more about that than me ?
TOYTONI said:
Mr Joiner claims there were many thousands and yet he couldn't get his hands on a single example from this Arthur dealer despite buying 500 carded Hothtroopers ? and a staggering 700 carded Fetts???- what utter nonsense !He claims the Fetts were then mysteriously taken off the cards - why would someone cut up 700 carded Fetts - more nonsense- we really are in the realms of fantasy here . What happened to the 500 carded hothtroopers? Where are these 1000s of factory cards?
arr the attack , I can see that coming , its at that point when you felt that you was strong with your story and that it was a good time to try to distoy my side of things and to undermind me , I bit low but expected ok can you handle the truth Toni ?
ok you want the full story Toni then here it is and I have witnesses to this and I plan to contact them if I need to prove anything after your respnce to my full respnce message
the full story its neally a book sorry guys but this is the hole truth I have tried to remember all the prices and numbers but remember it was 25 years ago but its what I think they were, but I may be out a little, I have given you all the heads up on that point ok .
but it dose not change the facts and this is the truth and the hole truth
The Deal and compleat facts
Arthur Baily was a interesting guy he found loads of really cool stuff at great deals and he made a lot of money buying up old stock and clearance stuff from the old paliloy factory and when it closed down through contacts he had made over the years.
He and I used to do a few deals together and to me he was someone to emulate and look up to as I was around 17 when I first talked to him on the phone , I learnt a lot about why things had a value and why people collected and how you can buy stuff up and let it out over time and that way it did little damage the market and that way you can make more money from the big finds you get , he was someone that put me on the right track in busness and I have to say a thank you to him as his advise had help me a lot when I first started out to be a trader .
the number of figures cards and bubbles added up to an estimated 25,000 +
The number that was being talked about between Arthur and I was £10,000 for all the lose figures , cards, bubbles , and carded figures , that was a very lot of money back then he gave me ruff numbers over the phone and said there is more but these are the beter figures , I new I wanted these deal .
I had friends that I could call in to help lone me money to help me close the deal , I told Arthur I wanted to do a deal , but being a trader as well as a collctor I tried to get a better deal and make it easer for me to get the money together , I think I offered him £8,000 , he said well let me have a count up get you a compleast list and we can see if we can close a deal , it took him around a week to get the list to me and in that time I started to get money together by selling off spear toys and talking to people that owed me money and getting it together.
I got the list and saw it was a great deal and there was many of the German cards which was the thing that to me was the best as I had never realy seen these before apart from the 2 I had that were in very bad shape ,
Important
"To this day this was the fist time I had herd or had been offered ESB German cards before and sins any were apart from Toni's ads in Model Mart and his stands at Sandown and Donninton after Arthur has sold them to Toni "
getting back to the facts
I again talked to Arthur and said I want to buy them lets do a deal.
I then thought maybe Arthur might let me buy a few hundred and I can sell some off and then that would help me buy them all ? so I asked could I pick some of them and buy them now and buy the rest later ?
Arthur said if he was to sell then off in baches then he would want more money as I was cherry picking so if I was to buy these they would have to be more, I think we agreed on 45p each and I could pick some out.
I knew I could sell some Boba Fetts off to a collctor in Romford Craig Stevens , Craig loved the story of the madalrans and loved Baba Fett , I rang him and and thinking back I think he paid me £1.50 each ,
! stop !
( thinking back everyone just now I have to coreact something I said earlier in a post )
it was not 700 boba fetts I bought from Arthur it was only 500 palitoy carded fetts and I can tell you why that was the number !!, Craig got it into his head that he needed 440 of them as that was the number he thought was in the big battle and he said he knew this as he read the comics or books or somthign like that and he wanted 440 , so I rounded it up to 500 as boba fett alwases sold and I would sell off a to a few to custmers.
so I bought 500 fetts and also 500 hoth stormtroopers on ROTJ palitoy cards as imperials alwase sold well i paid Arthur £450 , again a lot back then , Arthur shipped them to me and they were with me within a week.
( Prompt delivery and conferming that he had this stuff Toni and proving that he also dlivered to me again and shows him being reliable. )
when there turned up the cards was all palitoy both troopers and Bobas the Boba's where all fine and bubbles where all tight to the card , the troopers some was fine but some had a bubble that was put upside down so the troopers head so it fit in the footwell that making the bubble up the wrong way , so the figures were up the right way but the bubbles were upside down so the tropper fitted in the bubble as the bubbles seem to have been the wrong size ones used on these cards , this was very odd but at the time it made it much hardder to sell them on which was not good :-(
anyway I whent strate over to Romford and dlivered the fetts to Craig and to get my money from him he looked at them was happy and paid me I think it was around £660 which meant I got 56 fetts for free and 500 tropers free , and a profit of around £210 also a good days work and it showed me that I had to close this deal but the carded figures some not bing good bubbles could be an issue to me if many more were likt that ?
so I got on the phone to Arthur and said that its was ok but the bubbles on the troopers could be an issue , he said that the troopers was the only onse like this and said that the rest was mostly all good , I tried to get them all down to the £8000 less the £450 I had paid for the troopers and fets he said let him think on it and we can talk at Sandon park toy show in a week or so time, I agreed and felt that would be great as at that show I would make some more money maybe around £1500 to £2000 and by then I wowuld have all the money inplace to buy everything in one go.
I got the the show a week later to set up whent over to Arthur and he said sorry mate I got a better offer and have sold them .
well I was gutted.
it's the way things go but I thought it was going to happen, I asked him who bought them , he said I was asked not to say, I said I wanted to know as there was some cards I wanted in there for my collection , he unserstood that as being a collector himself and said it was Toni , and I understood that they were friends and they both were into tin toys and could see why that had happened :-(
I was gutted so did not go over and talk to you Toni at that show and left it till another day as I was just a bit lost and deflated , i was 17 remember and it was a big deal one of the biggest i had tried to close back then.
some time when by It was I think Donninton toy fair ? where we met up next with Toni and I went up to him and said that I know you bought that haul of star wars cards and figures , first he dinied that it was him that had bought them.
I then looked at his stall and there was a carded ESB liea I then said mate these card backs are rare this is apart of what you got from Arthur its ok I know , I got a list also I was going to buy them also, I said there was a lot there how are you going to sell them all ? and then I said if you dump them it will damage the market, he then said that he was going to rickkel them out over the years its Star Wars its not going to go down, and we agreed.
I said how much was a Liea going to cost for me ?, he told me £45 i think ? I shunned it as I knew what he had paid and how many he had .
I said so you have managed to find a way to get the cards on then ? he said that it was a bit tricky at first , I asked was it heated up to go on like a hot ion ?, he said something like that , I wanted to know how it was done as I alwase wondered they did that ? they did look very good if a bit shiny ? so I pushed and I think he just wanted to put me of knowing who it was done and said I had someone do them for me ?
I then said that all I really need is a set of card backs could you do me a deal for a set of card backs for my collection , he said that he needed some lose figures as some of the cards he had did not come with figures , I said which ones he started to list around 12 figures that he needed and that he could do with mutpuls of them , I started to talk to him more and started to feel that what he wanted was to much for unused cards and for what he had paid for them , even thought he had to pay out a lot in one go to get them I understood that but it was just to much to get my head around , first loosing out on the hole deal and now having to pay a high price for something that was in fact a common thing as he had so many .
I just thought leave it for a bit till he will get your money back from sellig some off and then I would try again there was plenty and they were not going to go anywere fast .
I remember this 100% , the only thing is I am not shore now is if it was Donninton or the NEC toy fair but I do not think he did NEC ?, I remember this converstion and thinking about his stand that day I think he was in the mddle of the hall where a old dealer called Jerry ritus was on the end I think , wow its funny when you relly have to remeebr stuff wow ok I am shore that was the show and the place , anyway that's what he said this to me , I talked to other traders that was there at the show , others saw the Laia and the Han on the ESB German cards and that was the talk of the show , as no one had seen them before ,on that day david oliver was there Jim Stevenson both collects and dealers , I do not know if they remember that day or the history maybe someone on here should ask them if they want to ?.
I did not buy them from him that day and never did buy them as I knew they were just cards put together carded figures .
So as a collctor of everything , why would I not have bought them for my collection if I thought they were right ?
I think that tells a lot to back up this matter
I still do not have any of the figures he have been selling over the years
Toni dose say I was a major dealer and expert in Star Wars and I was also a compleates collctor at that time so why did I never buy a singal figure from him back then ?
I will leave that as a fact that others can also think about ?
so thats my side of things now back to your message Toni
TOYTONI said:
Mr Joiners assertions that I was claiming I was going to some factory to get bubbles sealed is total fantasy .
well its what I remember you saying in a way that you had soemoen do it for you implying another person or a componey did it for you ?
TOYTONI said:
Arthur on several occasions told me that he thoroughly disliked Mr Joiner
wow its funny Arthur and I talked a lot on the phone my phone bills at that time as a 17 year old sometimes was as much as £800 and that was back in the late 1980s . its where I learnt to talk to people , I am dixslic and do not wright so I phoned people and chated for hours.
I talk a lot , that is not disputed I do not think ☺ and I used to talk to Arthur for around two years quite a lot Toni so I think what you doing is just getting backing from someone that is not around to respond to this a bit low that really ?
TOYTONI said:
( as did many others- normally mild mannered guys threatening him with physical violence on several occasions at toyfairs )
ok that's is a contdiction Toni sorry I think you are lousing the plot and putting the negativity on a little to much now .
why would a mannered person threaten someone with physical violence ? sorry that dose not add up ?
i think that was another quick jab at me not so settle ?
TOYTONI said:
so its highly unlikely that he exactly would confide in him about the details of what he had, what he kept and who he sold what to who.
well Arthur did and you know he did and he did give me that list also and you and I talked about this stuff at the time and others know about it also.
you were alwase coy about it as you knew better than most if word got out how much you had it would damage the market.
ok if you have nothing to hid and this is all trash what are the numbers of German cards you still have and that you have been selling to collators all around the world for over 25 year and you still have figures for sale now , how many of these rare card do you still have ?
interesting question that one ?
Toni i understand why you are coming at me on this, you have no were else to go, except to come clean on this and then that damages your business
I am not going change what I remember this happened
TOYTONI said:
I suppose it is possible that he had been offered unused cards or even had some but I have completely lost touch with Arthur since he went on to other things and have had no contact with him for over 10 years.
he did have unused cards i was sent a list from him , he had carded figures on that list also I orders some from him they arrived and they were palitoy ROTJ cards hoth troopers and Boba fetts and the guy that bought them from me I can get to witness he bought them from me and I think he still has the opend cards or at least some of them as yes he did just that he opened them all and had a great army on display
that was Craig
Arthur went on to buying houses and doing them up I think he wanted to rent out flats also ?
TOYTONI said:
I hope this clarifies things if any one has any general questions Im happy to reply but please dont expect me to remember details of exactly who did or said what over 20 years ago!.
Toni
well no it dose not Toni
you are clling me a lieyer when its you that is turning the truth around
at the end of the day why would I bother to spend any time on damaging you when have not even thought about you really for 20 odd years ?
I have nothing to gain in any way from these posts or anything tonight
I came on here as i felt like having a go at putting things strate for me persnaly talking to other fans for a bit when I am not so busy
then i talked about cool memories from the past and the Arthur deal came up and it kicked off a hole can of worms that frankly I wished I just had never even started
when this kicked off Toni I know you was going to call me a lier there is little else you could do really and once it was out the bag
in the past I would have just walked away and just thought why bother, its just on the net ? but life is short and reading things about yourself that just are not true is upsetting I am a person, so maybe wrongly I thought lets start to try to repear the damage and explan things and tell my side of things and that was all this was about . not you Toni and not them dam figures , in fact this has set me back quite a bit someone else calling me a lier to be frank is not really what i needed.
sorry that was my rant , and that's not cool , sorry , this message if anyone cares at the end was a very hard one for me to complete and I want to get it as right as I could remember for me and in a odd way for Toni as I also wanted to jog his memeory to. that was important
TOYTONI said:
PS
As far as the seal on the General Mills and Palitoys- its generally accepted that most Palitoy Esb and Rotj have smooth seals as do the German issues which were made in the UK .
As far as ESB style bubbles on ROTJ cards is concerned this is also not that unusual although rectangular bubbles are the norm ESB style bubbles were used on ROTJ cards both Palitoy/German and Kenner .I hope that clarifies those points .
you know what that last bit means nothing to me its way over my head , I never got into that , that much , but i cannot help but see is someone trying to explain something that they feel is important and maybe trying to cover them selfs ?
I never said anything really about the bubbles never really thought about it really ?
just a observation ?
my last words on this ?
well what I have told is what I remember to the best of my memeroy , I have noting agest you Toni but you did take a big pop at me with this message, I have decided to defend my self and that's what you have seen here
we all live with our actions , I wish I just had not said that line about card backs and this would have all passed by and would have all been a much more positive thread .
hine site is a wonderful thing .
i off now, I am shore this far from over ☹
