Yet another AFA abortion part 2 for today

[Frunkstar]

D'oh, I posted on that thread as I thought it was current, but have amended it, must check dates

I agree in what you are saying in some respects Shawn, but not all.

Yes any business has to expand to survive & to make a profit, but to change policy as & when its in your financial favor to do so is IMHO another matter entirely & if they are now willing to grade (are they??) Kenner issued baggies, then why not Euro issued baggie, surely that's just discrimination?, I know Billy Boy did some damage to the baggie side of the hobby & threw a few things in to question, but from what I understand from my reading he only used one kind of palitoy baggie for his fakes, ones he got as overstock & those being the same as the Nein Numb on the other thread I posted earlier - Tape sealed light blue small horizontal font, so why all other tape sealed Euro issued baggie that are tape sealed are a no no is what I would not understand m8.

I also do not want it turning in to some huge & uncomfortable debate, but it is a question worthy of discussion IMO & a point that should be brought up as to why??.

As for the U grade point you have raised, yes both companies will U grade, but AFA will grad ANYTHING sent in no matter what regardless of condition or rarity, hell if that palitoy jawa had been sent in for U grading I bet they would have done so within a heartbeat which is IMO where the 2 companies differ, I also agree that UKG are doing pretty much the same as AFA in terms of encasing figures & grading them but IMO there was a real need for that for many reasons not least of which were cost & security, I for one would not feel comfortable sending in rare & expensive items to the states & back in case they were damaged & the shipping is pretty steep.

UKG will (as far as I am aware) only U grade an item is the packaging is trashed to the point of it having lost all its value (to most collectors), they will also U grade multi-packs/mailers but only open the outer packaging & will not remove the figures from the baggies like AFA do, I know that's a double edged sword with some collectors still thinking negatively about it being done, but I for one do not like to look at a sealed box, a different matter with vehicles (for me at least) but you see where I am going with this.

No company are perfect & I would have nothing against AFA if they actually gave a stuff about what they are doing & did not keep making these rather stupid (IMO) school boy errors - romba with a chirpa hood FFS!

 

[shawn_k]

I do get what you're saying Frank, but I have to agree with this change in policy, in that tape sealed baggies are being saved that normally wouldn't have been. This change goes in line with the "preservation" tag on their web page and even further if they would have stopped the U grade when they saw what was happening in that case. I would have agreed with that change in policy too. As far as the Euro baggies goes, I think it'd be great if they'd hire someone that is an expert in the field, so they could expand in that area, but at the same time, it's great the UKG does acknowledge them as it is something that gives them an advantage to AFA and something that UKG should be an expert in where they are UK based.

For the U grade stuff, at one point, Tom did say that they would question someone, requesting a U grade, on a rare/nice item, but at the end of the day it was up to the person submitting. I've not heard about UKG one way or another. I still would prefer it to be neither, as a beater can still be a rare MOC variation for a collector. Unfortunately, it is usually only the focus collectors that discover most of these. The SKU sticker Luke Jedi in my guide, as an example, is one I still need and have not seen for ages. Luckily, the one shown was saved by another focus collector. I agree on the mailers for the most part and I've always said I wouldn't have been opposed on sealed shipping cases either as those instances might have actually meant the U grade as something special.

As you said no company is perfect, but I think those "school boy errors" will always happen. Supposedly it isn't collectors doing the actual grading, so I can see how that can happen. In every instance I've heard of though AFA will recase for free and fix the mistake. That's at least proper customer service and how it should be.

 

[PGowdy]

This change goes in line with the "preservation" tag on their web page and even further if they would have stopped the U grade when they saw what was happening in that case.

Are they ****ing kidding?? :shock:
Well at least AFA have a sense of humour. That like McDonald's having "Friend to Cows" on their web-site. :lol:

 

[Frunkstar]

Sorry I should have been a little clearer where I was going with my train of thought Shawn as reading back its not crystal.

I do think that AFA should be grading Tape sealed baggies & feel that they should always have done so & that the correct steps for authenticating them should be followed, as it can only as you state be good for the preservation of the hobby & baggies in general, so do I understand correctly that they now do indeed grade tape sealed baggies??, as every time I have read anything about tape sealed baggies being graded by them the answer has been no from other baggie collectors, be great if they are as I am on board 110%, though I do not see why if they are indeed now accepting tape sealed versions, why oh why will they not accept Euro/palitoy tape sealed baggies, surely the authentication process must be pretty much the same? & if its just down to provenance then I have my work cut out for me in terms of cataloging them correctly with history.

I also agree with you 100% about rare items not being graded if they are one of only a handful say 10 or less of a certain example & I know that UKG do tend to say this to folks sending items in that they know to be such regardless of condition, sadly from what I understand the same can not be said of there competitors whom are willing to grade & U grade anything for a price, this I think is the defining difference between the 2 companies & one of the other main reasons I chose to use the one I do, though in reality I know its not always the case with some if not a lot of items not even being understood as rare by the graders, yet again this is where I think UKG stand head & shoulders above AFA though as everyone involved in the grading process at UKG is an enthusiastic collector not just a drone not affiliated with the hobby, just trained to spot blemishes & for the most part mistakes & errors.

As you say, no company is perfect & AFA if asked will re case the item for free, the same is true of UKG & mistakes will happen due to the human error aspect in the process, I just find it stupid when it comes to such easily seen errors like the palitoy baggie I posted about earlier considering there is the well know guide to them on line they could easily cross check with & the aforementioned Chirpa/romba hybrid - you could spot both mistakes without even thinking about is as could I as could most other collectors with a year or 2 in the hobby under there belt, this is why I am saying "why"? do AFA insist on having so called impartial graded doing the meat & potatoes work on the production line when its obvious (to me at least) that it is not working - folk know what they know, you would not ask a builder to bake you a pie not would you ask the pie maker to build you an extension, so why get spotty 17 year old's to grade items they have no bloody idea about? IMO the answer is transparent - cash!, you can pay spotty 17 year old's a pittance, but is a false economy.

I hope this comes across as is intended as my thoughts on the grading process in general, not a you must as I do so you should if that makes sense?.

 

[shawn_k]

Well, in answer to your question as to why they won't accept these baggies, it boils down to this. Now that is 2008, so there could be other baggie experts that AFA look to, but I honestly have no clue. Really we can go round and round discussing this, but I think the best course of action would be to try and ask them if they'd reconsider.

Is this mainly such a concern because you want AFA to recognize their existence, for those who consider them the only authority? I think it's fairly obvious that you wouldn't be getting your own graded through them and right now you are the main Euro baggie collector that I know of. Just mainly curious why it is such an issue for you? If anyone did their own research, they'd be able to find out that a lot of these are legitimate. Hell, my only graded Luke Jedi for example, has one of these baggies inside, so AFA did recognize it in that case and there's at least 3 of these in the wild I know of including mine.

As far as the graders are concerned, if I was into the whole grading thing, I'd prefer the AFA method. Yes, in an ideal world I'd rather have someone who knew their toys to help avoid some of these mistakes that would be easily avoided by us. However, I would rather it be people that could hopefully not be influenced by friends to give an item a higher score. I think that's the main reason AFA did it the way they did over just cheap labor, but that could be part of it too.

 

[shawn_k]

Are they ****ing kidding?? :shock:
Well at least AFA have a sense of humour. That like McDonald's having "Friend to Cows" on their web-site. :lol:

:lol: It is indeed. Sighting "preservation" while also offering U grading always seemed like a complete oxymoron.

 

[Frunkstar]

For sure we could go round & round in circles on this one & if Todd or Bill decided to input I am sure the clouds would darken in regard to euro issued baggies as from what I understand both of them have no faith what so ever in them, but IMO they are looking at things in a biased way due to the whole Billy Boy rogers scandal & in a certain point of view I can see why they are saying what they do & also why AFA look at it the way they do, having had those guys as there main resource for identification of them, but times move on & some collectors choose to live in the past & look at collecting through rose tinted spectacles IMO, as we both know there are a great many legit Euro baggies out there, with your fine carded Luke being a great example (gimme gimme gimme) 8)

As to what grinds my gears about AFA not grading them, its a simple case of naivety, they don't have the knowledge about them so choose to paff them off as not being legit, not that I would choose them to grade my items even if they were to do so, but I am sure others would & IMO it should be there right to do so & not be put off Euro baggie just because of a few bad apples in the past & the grades saying its not so etc.

I am familiar with that POTF baggie thread Shawn & have read it several times & must say it always leaves a sour taste in my mouth as IMO some of the views border on the ridiculous especially Mr baggie himself "Todd" as he has blinker vision when it comes to baggies IMHO

I have to say I am rather shocked with your comment about UKG not being as impartial as AFA & that you consider that they could be swayed to grade things higher just because they are collectors themselves & may show favor to some collectors :shock: (if this is what you are saying - please clarify??), if I felt this were the case I would not send my items in to them either as I want my items graded with the grade they should attain on there condition alone, I do not think for one moment that AFA have done it for this reason though it would be nice to think so, I personally feel it is much more likely its for the reasons I stated regardless of what they state there policies are on there site, just look at the statement about U grades you spoke of.

& just as a little example, this 15 figure multi pack I have that is AFA's Graded 75 overall, with it only being graded as such due to the box having a tear & all figures being graded at 85 :?

I may agree at the overall grading would be similar, but can you or anyone for that matter tell me in all honesty that 15 baggied figures would all attain the exact same grade??, I can see one in the pack that would IMHO only grade a 75 maybe an 80 topp's due to discolouration, I am going to have this pack re graded with UKG when funds are available & will be asking for each figure to be graded on its condition rather that the whole set to be graded as it has been, as for me it make no sense what so ever & means little or nothing.

 

[spoons]

Frank if you have grades in mind for your figures, why bother sending them off to anyone? The baggies look great like that surely you'd just be wasting your money sending them to UKG just for different grades

I must admit I really don't get the grading thing, but each to their own

 

[shawn_k]

I have to say I am rather shocked with your comment about UKG not being as impartial as AFA & that you consider that they could be swayed to grade things higher just because they are collectors themselves & may show favor to some collectors :shock: (if this is what you are saying - please clarify??),

Sorry Frank, I didn't mean that to come across that way, if it did. I was mainly making the point in why AFA would have probably chosen to do it the way they did. I'm not saying that is happening, but it opens up the can of worms in that it could. Like I mentioned earlier, my only main qualm with any grading company is the U grade because it is physically damaging to the hobby. Other than that, I really could care less if someone wants to pay a 3rd party to judge how nice their collectible is and seal it in a case. I have no loyalties toward either company.

 

[Frunkstar]

Frank if you have grades in mind for your figures, why bother sending them off to anyone? The baggies look great like that surely you'd just be wasting your money sending them to UKG just for different grades

I must admit I really don't get the grading thing, but each to their own

Its not so much about the grade for me TBH m8 its about getting them protected from future damage & to show them off to there maximum potential - eye pleasing, that's why between Steve's help & my own ideas he managed to come up with a case style that safely anchors the figure firmly in place without any movement or fear of further damage & presents the viewer with not just the figure but the baggie type displayed to its full potential, I did consider slide bottom/back cases, but was left with the same problem as regular graded baggies - possible damage & them not being protected in either the post or when moved about, it works out at only pennies extra in terms of having a grade added to the cases so I went with that in case at some point I do decide to part with my collection as it would be a plus if I ever wanted to sell, which may I add I have no intentions of.

As for them looking great as they are, well I do not actually like the huge cases that are used for the MP's by AFA & would like my entire collection to be matching & each figure individually cased which I have spoken about before, hope that clears up just why I am doing it this way.


& @ Shawn, I was hoped that was all you were saying m8, just making sure hence the - (if this is what you are saying - please clarify??)

Seems we have gone a bit

but that's why we all love this place :lol:

 

[momike]

Spent last night reading that thread about the Woolworths 8 packs (I remmber my sis geting me one of those as a kid) on RS and have to say I can see why people are a little sceptical about them just for the fact there is such limited numbers of them and the whole billy boy thing didn't help! IMO they are legit but can see why afa wouldn't grade them.

If they don't grade euro tape sealed baggies frank dose that go for dengars, admiral ackcbars, Nien nunbs, rancor keepers and emperors which were all palitoy mailer offers? I found it frustrating that there was no mention of them in the RS thread! Now afa don't grade them apparently so why have I seen graded ackbar and Nien nunb figures (mihk tape sealed) with the blank small mailer box which I would presume originated from palitoy/uk and then there's the toltoys Nien nunb that they grade which appears to be the same baggie (mihk) as the palitoy with the tape seal!!!!

All seems a bit double standard to me, do you think if I sent them a rancor keeper mailer they would grade it frank?

 

[Frunkstar]

Hey Mike, nice to see you posting buddy.

I have seen a LOT of single figure mailers graded by AFA, not sure if they are always U graded as that would make sense, IE if they opened the box & the tape sealed baggie was inside, hence them being then willing to authenticate it (due to the box being sealed & may I add - TAPE SEALED!!!) which is

IMO as how can they authenticate a tape sealed baggie from a tape sealed mailer box? - just how do there "toy experts" distinguish that the tape on the box is more genuine than the tape on the baggie :?

Anyhow I just did a search on ebay & they do indeed grade none sealed mailer boxes - the plot thickens.

Double standards indeed IMO & just one of the many reasons why I choose to have my items graded elsewhere & I would suggest that if your considering having mailers graded to have a think about supporting our countries grading company.

This point in its self would (to me at least) yet again indicate that AFA say one thing & do the opposite which is as you say totally double standards, if they can authenticate mailers (admittedly they are fairly well known) then why can they not grade other "known" Euro tape sealed baggies??? & whilst on the subject - what about MISB ships & play sets?, the majority of those are also only tape sealed, oh what a can of worms!

Think I will go away & have a quiet think

I can see there point about the woolies 8 packs & would have to say the same about the Irish 3 packs as in a way they were not an official release having been made up by individuals or companies not under the Kenner umbrella, but as for baggies :?:

 

[momike]

Your on point in what your saying frank, what makes it harder to fake a US tape sealed baggie opposed to a Pali/euro Baggie? Nothing what so ever it's just ignorance on the afa's part plain and simple and prob the fact they don't get much call to grade them, guarantee you if they got a hundred emails tomorrow about grading euro taped baggies there stance on not grading would change $$$$$$$$$ I was pretty sure I had seen those mailers with both u grades and normal grades frank and I am also sure I have seen the baggie(Nien nunb) graded on its own without the box, the fact is they say they don't grade them but they clearly do :|

I was just using the rancor keeper as an example mate, I like my mailers loose, there quirky items and I like to open them from time to time and have a look at them to much to get them graded. I do use ukg to grade my loose variants, Steve's a double helpful guy and an all round top bloke to boot and hope they carry on going from strength to strength