Should grading companies archive/case reproductions?

[edd_jedi]

As you may have seen, this has been a hot topic on Facebook today after it emerged CAS have 'archived' (not graded) several reproduction MOCs. The labels in the cases state that the card and bubble are reproductions, they do not mention if the figures are genuine or not (one of which was a vinyl caped Jawa!)

What do you think, do the grading company have a point that these things should be labelled as repro, or was this a bad decision? The vote is surprisingly close on Facebook, roughly 60/40 in favour of not archiving them so far.

 

[lejackal]

They should not case them at all.
Also I think the vote is so close on Facebook because their question is shod they label them as repro, yes or no, somewhat implies that they will case them regardless

 

[SublevelStudios]

This really has set FB alight today, and rightly so.

I agree with Carl, the question on the FB vote was worded very strangely and lead to some confusion I'm sure.

If grading companies are now going to go down this route it will open the floodgates to all sorts of issues.

Lets hope CAS realise it was a dreadful mistake and rectify it immediately.

 

[Mr-shifter]

They will mark, and it will be spun that they are such a great company because they listen to the community and make these changes etc etc.

But they thought it was a good idea in the first place......

 

[Cardbackkid]

I think this could be the start of the end for grading companies.

 

[Nick_IoW]

I'm pretty disappointed to be honest. At some point they sat down to discuss it, quite obviously knew what the backlash would be against this - and just went ahead with it anyway.

The fact they gave no indication as to whether the figure inside was fake or not must surely be an oversight.

The poor wording on their poll was surely intentional. It was claimed only being able to use X amount of characters caused this, which is claptrap. Doesn't require many characters to say "Yes Fakes" and "No Fakes".

For the people who are saying "it's better to help identify fakes" - thats also *****. You can just take items out of the case. It does nothing to protect anyone or anything. And the fact the figure isn't mention on the label, as I mentioned, is truly awful. Summed up by the guy selling the CAS VCJ on repro card/bubble - with no indication as to whether or not the VCJ is fake (it is fake btw, but not mentioned) - thereby allowing the owner to pass it off as REAL - due the label not disclosing the figure (cape) as fake.

They've championed morality - this move is quite the opposite. Maybe they had good intentions. Maybe they sat down and discussed new ways of bringing in revenue as a business and they somehow thought this would be a cool way of helping the community - but I think they got this wrong, it's really not ptotecting anything. But in any event, and no matter what the intentions towards the community are, it was driven by $$$. I don't think anyone would begrudge them trying to increase revenue or expand - but I don't think this way is healthy for the community and therefore not healthy for them as a business.

Some of those that have supported the move by CAS to case up repro items have used the same turgid arguments that Orme uses for his reproduction boxes - "they're labelled as reproductions so its ok". Almost all of those that say this is a good move would no doubt give Orme **** over his ghastly repro boxes. I can't help by think this is hipocritical ********.

I'm not going to start shouting "i'm never using CAS!" cos I simply don't use grading companies anyway - some people love grading, and that's cool - it has it's place. So I don't really fit into their consumer base. It generally comes down to what their actual customer base, and potential future customers want.

I think the lads over at CAS are, for the most part, decent chaps - I don't know them. I am sure they will look into things, and sort out what they could have done better - and come to a conclusion over all this. My opinion is they should scrap it - but it's laregly down to them and what they feel is in their best interests now they have a better idea of the communities opinions. No doubt they have a lot of peoples opinions to sort through given the amount on FB lol.

tl;dr - **** idea.

 

[Stubbs]

This is the first I have heard of this and I am 100% against anything repro and I think this will only encourage it and make it worse.

If people want to buy it so it looks nice for them then each to there own you can stop that.

But as for grading if they allow this I can only see it being a money maker for the graders more product going out the door ECT

This will start making repro more acceptable

I am against it.

 

[wrighty]

Who voted Yes?? :lol:

 

[Grant_C]

Is there money involved?

 

[wrighty]

Is there money involved?

Don't be silly, I thought CAS was a community service!!

 

[finestcomics]

I posted this on my FB wall yesterday, late evening (early AM for you guys) after a FB friend shared these images wtih me privately, as well as a link to the Mercari listing for the Vader. To my surprise there were a total of 5 listings - one for a Vader, FX-7, Han Solo, VCJ and Chewbacca. I was truly dumbfounded by what I was seeing. A label, describing the original year and maker of something that had been remarked as reproduction, and for all we know, could have been made the day before they were sent in for grading. No way I can see a recard meriting a label, much less an "Archive" designation for these reasons.

Worse was the whole angle of monetizing something that most of us feel should be destroyed. Even more incredulous is that the very people who have been screaming from rooftops for years, writing blogs, posting banners against repro, are seemingly either turning a blind eye to this, or are suggesting CAS is some protector of the hobby now?

I will fade to the background after this post, but I just wanted to provide context on what I consider a very bad idea. Furthermore, as I had posted this on my FB wall with the intention of sharing this only with "friends", I was approched by a long-time collector, a person I respect and consider one of the hobby's pillars and stewards, asking me to post it publicly. Against my better judgement not to be involved in any hobby drama, I did out of respect for this individual. Despite the attempts to deligitimize what I shared as something akin to having an axe to grind with one or more of the CAS partners, and/or CAS themselves, I want to make it clear I only decided to post it publcly because I was asked to by someone I respect, and in an attempt to create awareness around what I think is one of the worst hobby ideas ever. I'll leave it to the communities such as yours to decide what is best here.

 

[wrighty]

What's with the stupid poll, it's almost like asking for us to decided because they don't have the balls to do it themselves! CAS just had to admit it was a PR error and will not do it again, end of and everyone goes back to their everyday business. Instead they decide to run a poll to legitimise the action!! Sigh sigh sigh!!

I posted this on my FB wall yesterday, late evening (early AM for you guys) after a FB friend shared these images wtih me privately, as well as a link to the Mercari listing for the Vader. To my surprise there were a total of 5 listings - one for a Vader, FX-7, Han Solo, VCJ and Chewbacca. I was truly dumbfounded by what I was seeing. A label, describing the original year and maker of something that had been remarked as reproduction. Worse was the whole angle of monetizing something that most of us feel should be destroyed. Even more incredulous is that the very people who have been screaming from rooftops for years, writing blogs, posting banners against repro, are seemingly either turning a blind eye to this, or are suggesting CAS is some protector of the hobby now?

I will fade to the background after this post, but I just wanted to provide context on what I consider a very bad idea. Furthermore, as I had posted this on my FB wall with the intention of sharing this only with "friends", I was approched by a long-time collector, a person I respect and consider one of the hobby's pillars and stewards, asking me to post it publicly. Against my better judgement not to be involved in any hobby drama, I did out of respect for this individual. Despite the attempts to deligitimize what I shared as something akin to having an axe to grind with one or more of the CAS partners, and/or CAS themselves, I want to make it clear I only decided to post it publcly because I was asked to by someone I respect, and in an attemp to create awareness around what I think is one of the worst hobby ideas ever.

 

[Darkest_Logic]

Personally I think they should not be.

I think they only label them because someone has paid for their item to be graded.

I think that the item should be returned to the sender with a letter given reason why the item was not graded.

 

[lejackal]

On the subject of casing without labels

 

[Snaketibe]

Well, grading exists for one reason, and one reason only; to make graders money. This would seem to be another blatant money grab from a previously untapped source. It shouldn't really surprise anyone, I suppose.

However, I do have to wonder at the thought-process of someone who pays to have their reproduction item 'archived'. Yes, all MOCs look good in perspex cases, so if repro ***** is your thing, why not buy some GW cases and display them in those? Paying someone else to seal a reproduction MOC in an archival case is insane. It's like having your Rover 100 serviced at a Ferrari dealership simply because you painted it red and stuck a picture of a horse on the front of it.

If these people have that much cash they're desperate to part with, I have some magic beans I can sell them :roll:

 

[Dannywhiteley]

I've noticed a few normally loud mouthed collectors who support CAS and those involved are conspicuous by their silence today, save for a few wise cracks early doors.

 

[wrighty]

I've noticed a few normally loud mouthed collectors who support CAS and those involved are conspicuous by their silence today, save for a few wise cracks early doors.

No they are still there depending on which thread you read especially on the CAS page!!

 

[Robstyley]

NO! If some knobsack wants to pay to have a repro Moc cased in acrylic more fool them but if the company starts putting labels on them it's just a pointless act that will further increase prices and only weaken the validity of an already dubious service. I hate grading anyway, this is just cringeworthy. What happened to "say no to repro"? What's the difference between a fake bubble or card and a fake accessory? Nothing.

 

[spoons]

I've noticed a few normally loud mouthed collectors who support CAS and those involved are conspicuous by their silence today, save for a few wise cracks early doors.

you'll find at least one firmly wedged up Ross's ring piece :lol: (sorry Ross)

My opinion is that this is absolute madness from CAS, but this isn't the first unpopular move from the two behind the scenes (box flats any one) and no doubt this is purely a business decision with little thought of what it will do to the collecting community.

A market for authentic looking repros will lead to more repros being made and cased and sold on at a profit. Totally agree that adding 12A or whatever legitimises them and is misleading. Whatever the result of the vote this wont have done CAS's business any good, even if there is a 'we listened to the people' end result

 

[TheJabbaWookie]

Well, grading exists for one reason, and one reason only; to make graders money. This would seem to be another blatant money grab from a previously untapped source. It shouldn't really surprise anyone, I suppose.

However, I do have to wonder at the thought-process of someone who pays to have their reproduction item 'archived'. Yes, all MOCs look good in perspex cases, so if repro ***** is your thing, why not buy some GW cases and display them in those? Paying someone else to seal a reproduction MOC in an archival case is insane. It's like having your Rover 100 serviced at a Ferrari dealership simply because you painted it red and stuck a picture of a horse on the front of it.

If these people have that much cash they're desperate to part with, I have some magic beans I can sell them :roll:

I can't see a situation where an honest collector who has sent his item in for grading and learns it is reproduction, would want it returned with a big reproduction sticker on it. If it was loose they would want it returned in order to hunt down the original weapon and not have it encased in a tomb. If it was a MOC they would want to strip it of its fake surround and display the original figure (if its accessories were indeed original), or to contact the original seller and return it in the same condition to get a refund.

In addition if I was a real bonafide, honest collector and couldn't afford a real figure or MOC, and bought a reproduction one in its place deliberately, I wouldn't send it in to be graded... I couldn't be doing with the extra costs of shipping and grading... if I liked acrylic I would just buy a GW Acrylic case.

The only people who would be using this service and benefiting from those labels in their current form, would be those looking to deliberately deceive, and then the reproduction label would not deter them as they could just smash it open.

Clearly if CAS started marking them much more clearly it would probably deter the scammers but that just proves that the only people that stand to profit here are the grading companies who get more money from an unnecessary market, at the detriment of the honest collectors who have to wait even longer for their items to be graded.

Oh and the Repro market that benefits from a rise in prices (like we've seen with Toy Toni's and Darren Orme's replicator boxes) from the increased presence and partial legitimisation of reproductions.

 

[theforceuk]

Never acknowledge fakes or repros! I don't see why this is about money, if I set up a grading company I would charge for every item sent in to be graded, regardless of if it's fake or not. At least this would stop some numptease sending fake and repro stuff in, when they know full well it's fake.

If CAS want to put their name on fake stuff, I say let them. If your that stupid to even consider this you deserve the outcome.

AFA and UKG must be pissing themselves!

 

[Clarkspie&chips]

Can anyone post a pic of what they've done for us non-Facebook users?

 

[_Lee_]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w9A-Bde9jzw

Another poll should be done in this way

Am i right in saying that Ross Barr is part of CAS?? Its very surprising to me if he has ok,d this.

i think the idea of grading a repro is the lowest of anything a grading service has done. As soon as the spunk bubbles se e another way of making money nothing else matters.

its not worth wasting your time anymore. Just collect what you want. Its the way of the world now.

 

[TK-7785]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...gradng, what an absolute bucket of arse!

First we had U grading, then graded Toy Tonis, untold examples of various fakes slipping through the "experts" and getting graded. And now this.

What an utter farce; paying to have some repro **** encased in plastic to confirm for all to see that you own a piece of repro ****...in plastic. Just stick it in a star case you bloody knob head!

 

[lejackal]

Interestingly the ones that were being sold in CAS archival cases with the stickers for 2K each are now listed by the same seller for 2-300 each and crucially now in GW type cases :?:
Anyone with a slightly suspicious mind might think the seller is linked to someone at CAS.....
https://www.mercari.com/u/511186031/

 

[TheJabbaWookie]

Can anyone post a pic of what they've done for us non-Facebook users?

The first two are the labels in question and the third pic is what one scammer has then done with his newly authenticated and cased CAS item.

The CAS labels detail how the bubble and card Back are reproduction, but make no mention of the figure inside. £2,000 is a lot for a Vader when you know the bubble and card are reproduction, but they also have a VCJ and the lack of information on the figure enables the eBay seller to prey on the newbie seller.

It is unclear from the posts on FB if the figure is authentic and so far CAS have not responded to direct questions regarding this matter, but clearly the lack of info has enabled the seller to suggest it is an authentic VCJ.

 

[olisuds]

The hypocrisy is astounding.

 

[laurencedyer]

For me this is a bad bad idea and from me this is a resounding no.

Now going slightly off topic as this thread is regarding the grading of reproductions which they clearly label as such, but what happens when items such as Toy Toni's that were previously graded as authentic turn out not to be.

The questions on my mind which are prominent at this moment in time due to the Woolworths pack research concerns the UKG graded packs.

UKG made the decision to withdraw the grading of all Woolworths packs a couple of months ago due to the concerns bought to their attention.
The points made were the initial concerns that had been discovered regarding two blatantly different fonts.

Since then the observation post has been released, a post of the researched comparisons that as far as I know have all been uncontested in the community which I deduce to be correct that there has been a style of pack reproduced.

The question's in my mind are:-

1. Has UKG viewed the post?, I would imagine so as I would imagine they would have received numerous enquires from collectors with regards to their own packs of Suspect creation having been graded and authenticated by them.

2. If they have viewed the research then do they accept the findings as the whole of the community seems to have?

3. Assuming they have viewed the research and they have also accepted the findings as being correct then will they be making the service of grading the packs available again as they will now know how to authenticate the Palitoy packs?

This leads me onto the archival database.

Now again, assuming that UKG have accepted the findings then what happens to the information detailed on their website with regards to the Suspect packs archival numbers and the description that follows?

The following detail is how the graded packs information is presented when you search the database.

This is the description of one of the authentic packs that has been graded on their archival system and followed by images of the pack.

Ref Number: SW010007
Toy Description: STAR WARS WOOLWORTHS 8 PACK 8D8,CHIEF CHIRPA,BOBA FETT NIKTO,PRINCESS LEIA BATTLE PONCHO DARTH VADER,PRUNE FACE,LUKE JEDI CIRCA 1985 SPECIAL BUY 99P
Graded Code: 90%

This is the description of one of the Suspect packs that has been graded on their archival system and followed by images of the pack.

Ref Number: SW010298
Toy Description: STAR WARS WOOLWORTHS 8 PACK WEEQUAY/JAWA/BOBA FETT SQUID HEAD/HAMMERHEAD NIKTO/GENERAL MADINE/NIEN NUMB SPECIAL BUY 99P CIRCA 1985
Graded Code: 90%

Making the assumption that UKG have viewed and accept the research, do they update each Suspect archival information with a comment that the pack is deemed as suspicious or even fake or does the information remain unchanged?

 

[Richard_H]

CAS have reached out to the owner of these items to have them removed. The practice has stopped.


Quote - CAS

What a day. As explained in detail below, we have heard and respect the feedback from the community even when some of it was hard to hear, and will immediately cease providing any CAS label that in any way marks or otherwise identifies reproduction items - such items will be rejected for grading and returned to the customer in a sliding bottom case. The community has spoken, and we have listened. As we always will. That means the poll we posted earlier today has been suspended and action will be taken now.

Now the facts. The gentleman that submitted these five carded figures (there are ONLY five at issue with this designation, including the Vader and VCJ folks have been sharing images of) submitted them in person to us at a show. He was up front that they were reproductions. We were told they were a gift from his mother some time back, that he didn't want to deceive anyone, but merely wanted to give these gifts a display worthy of their origin from his mom, and wanted them clearly marked and identified as reproductions on the label. So we believed the story and obliged the request, and most importantly were sure to clearly mark them as reproductions on the label. With no grade. This was done just earlier this month.

As a result of this experience, we also contemplated marking any items submitted to us as legitimate but that are in fact rejected as reproductions with a similar label - no grade and marking them as repros.

But the community has spoken. A practice we initially thought would be embraced by the community - a clear system for marking reproductions for what they are and limiting their ability to fool folks - has clearly been shown to us today to be something the masses think could have the opposite effect. We have heard you loud and clear.

To take an extra step, we have convinced the gentleman who submitted the five reproduction figures to us to return them to us so we can remove them from the cases or otherwise do so himself and provide us proof, which we think solves that problem by putting the proverbial toothpaste back into the tube. We are compensating him above and beyond merely just a credit for what he paid for these items as a thanks to him for helping us make this right.

CAS is a company composed of collectors like you that merely want to provide positive services to the community we all love and participate in. But we are also human and make mistakes or otherwise may misjudge how folks perceive our actions. But we will always endeavor to do the right thing, and hope with this swift response we are in fact doing so.

Thanks as always for your support. We will never stop doing whatever we can to repay that support.

 

[lejackal]

CAS have reached out to the owner of these items to have them removed. The practice has not stopped.

So that's why they are relisted in slide bottom cases now then