Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

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Maulster79 said:
:evil:

Any body have a break down of this, Dom's agent sounded interested.

Do you think we should go to the press?

Never **** with a mans Luke Farmboy! :evil:
Click to expand...

I contacted someone from the BBC myself a few weeks back - I would be happy to forward the email I sent if I could find it, but yeah, go to the press.
 
Caswellbot said:
How sure are you about this heat sealable varnish on the front of the card? It's the first I've heard of it and I'm not sure how that would create a waffle pattern. I always though the waffle pattern was created in the vaccuum forming process and is there to provide grip/ extra surface area to help seal the card?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure whether varnish is the correct term to use. The cards were "coated" with a heat activated adhesive, however it is also essential to understand two factors about heat/pressure sealing. The first is the adhesive profile requires a specific temperature for it to achieve the "melt rate" required for adhesion. The second relates to the importance of an "exact" temperature threshold as it would need to be just below the temperature threshold and exposure time where the plastic would become unstable, and itself begin to deform/melt.

If you followed along this far, it would seem from such a variety of seal examples that either the adhesive coating "best before" date had expired, the temperature being used was not as precise because the person doing this was a hack or didn't know any better, OR the grade of plastic varied so much that it actually did not produce the "optimal" adhesive bond only an original "factory" blister could produce.

I have already run through my mind how a "seal machine" could be set-up with consumer available goods, but the one thing that isn't easy to mimic is the exact temperature, as not all appliances that transfer heat can be dialed to achieve this temperature range. And the others are the exact pressure and exposure time. If any of these is off by even a few degrees, or lbs of weight, or seconds of exposure, you would not have an optimal seal. The worst outcome from "over exposure" being actual damage to the item.

It's that exacting. Could it still be done with inferior methods, and improved through trial and error? Of course, but not without an evolutionary trail of botched jobs, and tell-tale signs something is amiss.
 
Ok, have rewritten the 45b, 45c and 65d with single stem bubbles with embossed numbers in the correct places.

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/esb45bcardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj45ccardback.htm

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/rotj65dcardback.htm

cheers Jason
 
'Still says single stemmed bubbles are Toni cards on 45b for the affected figures'

'Shop bought examples are double stemmed'

I still say thats wrong, or the very least to final based on a handful of cardbacks. Here we go again....

Unless that's one of those bizarre iPhone lags - I've seen eBay items that have been edited not change on a mobile viewer for a few days
 
spoons said:
'Still says single stemmed bubbles are Toni cards on 45b for the affected figures'

'Shop bought examples are double stemmed'

I still say thats wrong, or the very least to final based on a handful of cardbacks. Here we go again....

Unless that's one of those bizarre iPhone lags - I've seen eBay items that have been edited not change on a mobile viewer for a few days
Click to expand...

That's old cached text you are reading.

It now says:-

This card variation also saw the double stemmed bubble making it's first appearance, but without the footplate seen on earlier card variations. No footplates are seen on any card variations from this variation onwards. The addition of the second stem allows the card to stand upright by itself. The double stemmed bubble also appeared on the 45C and 65D card variations. Single stemmed bubbles were seen on this card variation, but they are less common than the double stems. The single stem bubbles have a number embossed on the bubble in the bottom right hand corner. Certain figures only used certain bubble numbers. Han Solo used 04, Death Star Droid used 02, C-3PO (Removable Limbs) used 015, AT-AT Commander used 01 & 03, Artoo Detoo (R2-D2) (With Sensorscope) used 12, Bespin Security Guard (Black) used 01, TIE Fighter Pilot used 13, Cloud Car Pilot used 02 & 03, Luke Skywalker (Hoth Battle Gear) used 03 and 4-LOM used 13.

This card variation was the first card variation in the stock of unused cardbacks acquired by Toy Toni after the Palitoy factory closed and subsequently made into MOC with unused bubbles. The unused cardbacks were 500 Bossk (Bounty Hunter), 264 Imperial TIE Fighter Pilot and 66 Chewbacca. The numbers for Bossk (Bounty Hunter) and Chewbacca is a 50/50 split between Palitoy and German cardbacks as large quantities of mint MOCs exist for both and the original sales list of unused cardbacks did not differentiate well between ESB Palitoy and German cards. Also, both Palitoy and German cards for these figures were available for sale on toytoni.com. Toni used double stem and single stem doubles on these figures. For TIE Fighter Pilot, he used the wrong bubble number, 03 instead of 13, so this can be used to detect a Toni card. The seals on Toy Toni cards are generally very weak and worsen with time, so older examples show signs of bubble lifting and air pockets in the seal. The seal on the example below is quite poor.

cheers Jason
 
Nice one Jason :)

The numbered bubbles have got me thinking, a list of legit bubble/figure combinations would be good
 
spoons said:
Nice one Jason :)

The numbered bubbles have got me thinking, a list of legit bubble/figure combinations would be good
Click to expand...

Yes, have put in as many as I could find. Will update the list as new ones come to light.

cheers Jason
 
Where abouts Jason?

I'm now verging on the thinking all mine are fake again - I hate Toni :evil:

Kenner Han Hoths from 45-48 backs all have 02 bubbles, and a slightly squashed 02 (not much of a raised profile) - but have either a Kenner waffle seal or a clear seal

My GM Han Hoth has an incredibly crisp 03 bubble (absolutely no squashing on the 03) with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is smaller than an 02 and Han is squashed

My 45b Bossk has a 'squashed 03' bubble with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is a tight fit but Bossk just about fits

clearly an 02 bubble is meant for Han Hoth, but does an 03 bubble mean that Toni made it or Palitoy cared less?

Anyone with a 100% shop sold GM Han Hoths or Bossks who can compare?

* edit - just looked at JC's bubble stamps and he has 01 and 03 on an AT-AT commander, so the not caring is a definite possibility, but then a flattish 03 doesn't look good for Bossk
 
spoons said:
Where abouts Jason?

I'm now verging on the thinking all mine are fake again - I hate Toni :evil:

Kenner Han Hoths from 45-48 backs all have 02 bubbles, and a slightly squashed 02 (not much of a raised profile) - but have either a Kenner waffle seal or a clear seal

My GM Han Hoth has an incredibly crisp 03 bubble (absolutely no squashing on the 03) with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is smaller than an 02 and Han is squashed

My 45b Bossk has a 'squashed 03' bubble with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is a tight fit but Bossk just about fits

clearly an 02 bubble is meant for Han Hoth, but does an 03 bubble mean that Toni made it or Palitoy cared less?

Anyone with a 100% shop sold GM Han Hoths or Bossks who can compare?

* edit - just looked at JC's bubble stamps and he has 01 and 03 on an AT-AT commander, so the not caring is a definite possibility, but then a flattish 03 doesn't look good for Bossk
Click to expand...

The list I am updating is only for palitoy 45b's, maybe wolfgang should be involved for german cards?

cheers Jason
 
mr_palitoy said:
spoons said:
Where abouts Jason?

I'm now verging on the thinking all mine are fake again - I hate Toni :evil:

Kenner Han Hoths from 45-48 backs all have 02 bubbles, and a slightly squashed 02 (not much of a raised profile) - but have either a Kenner waffle seal or a clear seal

My GM Han Hoth has an incredibly crisp 03 bubble (absolutely no squashing on the 03) with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is smaller than an 02 and Han is squashed

My 45b Bossk has a 'squashed 03' bubble with a lined waffle seal - the bubble is a tight fit but Bossk just about fits

clearly an 02 bubble is meant for Han Hoth, but does an 03 bubble mean that Toni made it or Palitoy cared less?

Anyone with a 100% shop sold GM Han Hoths or Bossks who can compare?

* edit - just looked at JC's bubble stamps and he has 01 and 03 on an AT-AT commander, so the not caring is a definite possibility, but then a flattish 03 doesn't look good for Bossk
Click to expand...

The list I am updating is only for palitoy 45b's, maybe wolfgang should be involved for german cards?

cheers Jason
Click to expand...

That Bossk with an 03 bubble sounds suspect.

Toni had the unused cardback and bubble to manufacture that.

We need to see a shop sold single stem to see what it looks like.

cheers Jason
 
I tried to discuss bubble codes last month in the following thread but no interest :(
http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18857

Forgot that I Found this pic on ebay. Definitely not a factory seal.

12074760373_a7742489a4_o.jpg
 
mr_palitoy said:
mr_palitoy said:
The list I am updating is only for palitoy 45b's, maybe wolfgang should be involved for german cards?

cheers Jason
Click to expand...

That Bossk with an 03 bubble sounds suspect.

Toni had the unused cardback and bubble to manufacture that.

We need to see a shop sold single stem to see what it looks like.

cheers Jason
Click to expand...

Indeed - although the number squashing matches Kenner ones so is the Han fake, or both or neither.

For these to match the genuine seals Toni would have to get his heat right, his more recent attempts are not right, which gives me a glimmer of hope

Kenner, GM or UK I'd be interested in the numbers on the bubbles. I still think GM and 45b will have the same bubbles if they both originate from Coalville

RKW - I'm now interested :D
 
Do you think all these Vectis cards are Toni's?

I can guess the answer :wink:
 
spoons said:
Do you think all these Vectis cards are Toni's?

I can guess the answer :wink:
Click to expand...

The group I posted earlier, all of them have price sticker residue so are genuine.

The bossk has no price sticker residue and is minty mint and user a unused cardback/03 bubble combo so could be a Toni.

cheers Jason
 
Maybe the card was pictured upside down to get a clearer view and the weapon moved up, sometimes the weapon on my fett cards use to go up behind the arm of fett if angled right and would piss me off and would take ages shaking it until the weapon dropped down again
 
This is turning into a proverbial rabbit hole.

In better news, the palitoy guide is coming on leaps and bounds with defining what the valid bubble types are for palitoy cards.

So every cloud...

:)

Jason
 
Hate to sound like a jerk here.....but sticker residue does not make a genuine factory sealed card.

Back in the early 90s you could quite often buy items from dealers that had their own price stickers attached to the cards, more careful dealers applied price stickers to bubbles and if you were really lucky you got your figure in a comic bag.

I also now predict that we will see mint carded figures damaged slightly and stickers etc applied to try and be passed off as shop bought items.

I have heard people say "Its from a good source that doesn't trace back to Toni" c'mon how do you really know? These have been going round for over 20 years now.
 
Fair points but sticker residue on the back of German cards is still a good pointer - never seen any UK shops or dealers place stickers there, and JC's examples have a square price tag in the upper right back corner
 
Starzone said:
Hate to sound like a jerk here.....but sticker residue does not make a genuine factory sealed card.

Back in the early 90s you could quite often buy items from dealers that had their own price stickers attached to the cards, more careful dealers applied price stickers to bubbles and if you were really lucky you got your figure in a comic bag.

I also now predict that we will see mint carded figures damaged slightly and stickers etc applied to try and be passed off as shop bought items.

I have heard people say "Its from a good source that doesn't trace back to Toni" c'mon how do you really know? These have been going round for over 20 years now.
Click to expand...

Fair point Darren, the other thing to consider with Vectis auctions is that with the exception of Lee in October, all most all of their vintage star wars stock comes from childhood collections etc.

cheers Jason
 
Starzone said:
Hate to sound like a jerk here.....but sticker residue does not make a genuine factory sealed card.

Back in the early 90s you could quite often buy items from dealers that had their own price stickers attached to the cards, more careful dealers applied price stickers to bubbles and if you were really lucky you got your figure in a comic bag.

I also now predict that we will see mint carded figures damaged slightly and stickers etc applied to try and be passed off as shop bought items.

I have heard people say "Its from a good source that doesn't trace back to Toni" c'mon how do you really know? These have been going round for over 20 years now.
Click to expand...

Easily doable, in my garage is an old price gun and a box of about 30 reels of Tescos price stickers from the 80s for the gun, my mum and dad used to use them when selling at car boots in the 90's. Can bet she wasn't the only one out there that had this crap.
 
Starzone said:
Hate to sound like a jerk here.....but sticker residue does not make a genuine factory sealed card.

Back in the early 90s you could quite often buy items from dealers that had their own price stickers attached to the cards, more careful dealers applied price stickers to bubbles and if you were really lucky you got your figure in a comic bag.

I also now predict that we will see mint carded figures damaged slightly and stickers etc applied to try and be passed off as shop bought items.

I have heard people say "Its from a good source that doesn't trace back to Toni" c'mon how do you really know? These have been going round for over 20 years now.
Click to expand...

exactly mate and you could just nip down to asda or infact any shop right now or of course your own food cupboards and peel off a few little price stickers put them on the cards wait a couple weeks for residue to attach to the card a bit and peel em back off voila job done price sticker evidence back or front ,bubble or card :| few light scratches bit of edge knocking again job done :| as for vectis are they really that anal they will only ever buy Proven childhood collections? and how is it they know thats the case for fact without having access to a time machine and the ablity to watch your every move :roll: i cant believe if i turned up with a pile of vtg moc they would turn me away if i could not provide full history, surely just about every vtg moc out there could be said to have been part of a childhood collection .and to me those vectis ones look a bit TT made to look otherwise , of course i could be wrong
 
jay4 said:
Starzone said:
Hate to sound like a jerk here.....but sticker residue does not make a genuine factory sealed card.

Back in the early 90s you could quite often buy items from dealers that had their own price stickers attached to the cards, more careful dealers applied price stickers to bubbles and if you were really lucky you got your figure in a comic bag.

I also now predict that we will see mint carded figures damaged slightly and stickers etc applied to try and be passed off as shop bought items.

I have heard people say "Its from a good source that doesn't trace back to Toni" c'mon how do you really know? These have been going round for over 20 years now.
Click to expand...

exactly mate and you could just nip down to asda or infact any shop right now or of course your own food cupboards and peel off a few little price stickers put them on the cards wait a couple weeks for residue to attach to the card a bit and peel em back off voila job done price sticker evidence back or front ,bubble or card :| few light scratches bit of edge knocking again job done :| as for vectis are they really that anal they will only ever buy Proven childhood collections? and how is it they know thats the case for fact without having access to a time machine and the ablity to watch your every move :roll: i cant believe if i turned up with a pile of vtg moc they would turn me away if i could not provide full history, surely just about every vtg moc out there could be said to have been part of a childhood collection .and to me those vectis ones look a bit TT made to look otherwise , of course i could be wrong
Click to expand...

The vectis ones with price sticker residue are fine. The bubble codes match the list that was already produced at the top of this thread.
Toni used 03 bubbles on everything.

cheers Jason
 
Has anyone heard from Sith Smith concerning this whole mess? I would imagine that his collection has been greatly affected by Toni's fakes. I'm surprised that he hasn't joined in the discussion.

James.
 
James Simmonds said:
Has anyone heard from Sith Smith concerning this whole mess? I would imagine that his collection has been greatly affected by Toni's fakes. I'm surprised that he hasn't joined in the discussion.

James.
Click to expand...

I have on FB.

He is a ninja. He is probably on TT roof as we speak :lol:
 
man im confused with all this jason, theres just too much to take in and keep up with :lol: so are you saying those vectis pictured ones with the 03 blisters the same as you say toni uses on all his are 1 million % fine allthough they have suss 03 blisters, and just on the evidence of them having the same stickers and residue as the other moc there with dfrnt numbered bubbles ? if neither of them o3 blistered ones had the residue or white stickers top left they could easy be TT
 

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