Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

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So Toni's all seem to be shifted left to align over the coloured bubble. Toni's generally in the low thirties mm and regular cards middle to high thirties of mm.

Jason
 
wbobafett said:
I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

german19.jpg


The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff
Click to expand...


I've just checked my GM AT AT driver that wasn't bought from TT, I've uploaded pics to my flickr account. There is definitely a flat spot at the top middle of the bubble and certainly from one picture looks like the bottom part of the crescent? Can I just say the work you guys are doing on this is nothing short of phenomenal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scubadivercisco/

Select the "set's" tab and they should be there.
 
obiwannacollect said:
wbobafett said:
I noticed sth on German Fett today...not sure if it helps in any way, but you can see that originals can have flaws. These ones seem both original German 45 backs:

The "form" that has pressed these double stem blisters to the cards had a crescent area were no "heat sealing" could happen.

I remember we once talked about those crecents. Anyone else has ever seen an opened card with that one??


Anyway: Pictures are from Wolfgang/Mr Palitoy and the other one was found in the net/ebay.

Wolff
Click to expand...


I've just checked my GM AT AT driver that wasn't bought from TT, I've uploaded pics to my flickr account. There is definitely a flat spot at the top middle of the bubble and certainly from one picture looks like the bottom part of the crescent? Can I just say the work you guys are doing on this is nothing short of phenomenal.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/scubadivercisco/

Select the "set's" tab and they should be there.
Click to expand...

Yep, looks very similar.
 
One last thing on bubbles, on the sealed TT cards, the gap from bottom edge of card to bottom of bubble is generally around 4-6mm for both double and single stems (not flush). I don't really have many other guarenteed safe ESB's but almost all of my Kenners ESB's and Palitoy 45a's have that gap as no more than 2mm (flush). Can anyone compare safe Palitoy 45's and see how flush they look? The one safe Palitoy 45 that I do have with the right waffle seal is also flush.

We've all seen damaged MOC's where there is a bubble overhang and there's bubble damage on the stems, or there's no overhang but they're too flush they've got dings. With the 4+mm gap there's no way those GM's are ever gonna get dinged (which is how you'd seal them if you never planned on them getting opened ...)
 
jedisearcher said:
One last thing on bubbles, on the sealed TT cards, the gap from bottom edge of card to bottom of bubble is generally around 4-6mm for both double and single stems (not flush). I don't really have many other guarenteed safe ESB's but almost all of my Kenners ESB's and Palitoy 45a's have that gap as no more than 2mm (flush). Can anyone compare safe Palitoy 45's and see how flush they look? The one safe Palitoy 45 that I do have with the right waffle seal is also flush.

We've all seen damaged MOC's where there is a bubble overhang and there's bubble damage on the stems, or there's no overhang but they're too flush they've got dings. With the 4+mm gap there's no way those GM's are ever gonna get dinged (which is how you'd seal them if you never planned on them getting opened ...)
Click to expand...


Another good observation! I checked all the loose cardsbacks an all are aligned or maximum 2mm I would say. So very close!

Some of the TT are also aligned and pretty close, but I have seen two (Leia Bespin, Boba Fett ROTJ 45back) which seem to be surely sealed afterwards.

Again no pattern here, but a hint: Large distances seem to be fake!
 
Josh makes a very good point about Toni's cards all being flat on this thread:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1105341-2/#post19301443

This would indicate they were stored as unused cardbacks rather than assembled MOC, otherwise there would be some warping of cards over the years.

Great spot!

Jason
 
mr_palitoy said:
Josh makes a very good point about Toni's cards all being flat on this thread:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1105341-2/#post19301443

This would indicate they were stored as unused cardbacks rather than assembled MOC, otherwise there would be some warping of cards over the years.

Great spot!

Jason
Click to expand...


I wouldn't read to much into that ive had loads of cards over the years that have none if very little warping, also a lot of the cards ive had from Toni have had some slight warping where the bubbles been attached.
 
I have had a few warped cards from him and even if u check the afa 90 fetts a can see a gap where they are not flat when resting on the back of the case, one was terribly warped

if you check this one its so warped it goes over the grading label
and the one underneath almost touches the label
zandar2835.jpg
 

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lee gray said:
I have had a few warped cards from him and even if u check the afa 90 fetts a can see a gap where they are not flat when resting on the back of the case, one was terribly warped

if you check this one its so warped it goes over the grading label
and the one underneath almost touches the label
zandar2835.jpg
Click to expand...

Yeah, but those have been out in the wild for years, standing up, subjected to a variety of temperatures etc. When you get them directly from Toni, they are always dead flat.

cheers Jason
 
I agree that alot are flat but the first pictured item was warped like that when i sent him of to be graded, as you know i dont keep my figures for long so wouldnt have had time for it to warp before i sold it on lol
 
Some fantastic work has been done by you guys on bubble placement and the various tells on these pieces. Something else has occurred to me though. Thinking about how these would have been stored if they were factory sealed - they would have been stored in boxes and the bubbles would be flush against the adjacent card. This even on the most nice factory sealed MOC causes a tell tale fine edge wear to the bubble when held in the light. Yet TT figures regularly get 90 at AFA and remembering how my Boba Fett 65 backs were the bubble faces were mirror smooth, that just doesnt tally with a factory sealed MOC stored in a box (be it the original packing case or not) with other figures. I guess this is a self-evident point but in the deluge of physical evidence and tells its also something simple to consider.
 
Lee Bullock said:
Some fantastic work has been done by you guys on bubble placement and the various tells on these pieces. Something else has occurred to me though. Thinking about how these would have been stored if they were factory sealed - they would have been stored in boxes and the bubbles would be flush against the adjacent card. This even on the most nice factory sealed MOC causes a tell tale fine edge wear to the bubble when held in the light. Yet TT figures regularly get 90 at AFA and remembering how my Boba Fett 65 backs were the bubble faces were mirror smooth, that just doesnt tally with a factory sealed MOC stored in a box (be it the original packing case or not) with other figures. I guess this is a self-evident point but in the deluge of physical evidence and tells its also something simple to consider.
Click to expand...

Again this means nothing, I picked up an kenner sw a back r2 with sku footer, a lot older than any of toni's mocs. It graded 85/90/90 it also had a crystal clear bubble. It had no warping at all and looked better than most of toni's moc's ive bought, so all these so called tells (mint bubbles,non warped cards) don't mean anything and I think people are now clutching at straws.
 
Cc4rhu said:
Clutching at straws? I think that may be the other way Jim. The stuff that Wolf is finding out is pretty good evidence IMO.
Click to expand...

Not at all mate, im on about bubbles being to mint and warps in cards which can be found on just about any moc if you care to actually look. I've seen a lot of really mint tri logo bubbles on flat cards as well as kenners, has someone been knocking those out too? I'm not talking about bubble positioning and the like which is great work and im not slating it at all in fact I think its probably going to be the real tell, but all this crap about card warping and bubbles not having really slight wear around the edges is crap imo.
 
jimbody1 said:
Cc4rhu said:
Clutching at straws? I think that may be the other way Jim. The stuff that Wolf is finding out is pretty good evidence IMO.
Click to expand...

Not at all mate, im on about bubbles being to mint and warps in cards which can be found on just about any moc if you care to actually look. I've seen a lot of really mint tri logo bubbles on flat cards as well as kenners, has someone been knocking those out too? I'm not talking about bubble positioning and the like which is great work and im not slating it at all in fact I think its probably going to be the real tell, but all this crap about card warping and bubbles not having really slight wear around the edges is crap imo.
Click to expand...

You make think its crap - but I am not saying only use the lack of wear to a bubble as the only thing to say some card is a TT its supporting evidence nothing more. I have seen enough store bought MOC and TT cards to see that there is a tendency for TT to have no wear whatsoever whereas MINT cards from a packing case do often have a bubble wear ring. I am sorry but your tone is patronising and condescending.
 
im sorry you don't like my tone but I still don't think it would be used as a "tell" regardless, I dare say some collectors that have tt mocs stored in boxes from the early days will have these bubble scuffs. One of the mocs I bought and had graded was an gm r2, when I got it back it had a crap bubble grade because of slight yellowing and a very small crack in the bottom of the single stem which I hadn't noticed. Don't get me wrong mate I see exactly where your coming from but I just don't think itd be a reliable "tell" and you would run the risk of either discounting something you shouldn't or labeling something as fake when theres nothing actually amiss with it. I think instead of looking for little inconsistant tells we should be concentrating on wolfs work on bubble positioning and also more work on the ideas of the repro bubble being used.
 
First up I too think that the warping will happen in time. If faked surely a great bunch was sealed together at once in the beginning...about 20 years ago. Only nowadays they seeme to be made "by order"...though.



More important:

Another German collector has messured his potentional TT Mocs:

Chewie 3,4cm
c3po (AFA) 4,0
r2d2 double stem (UKG) 3,4
black security 3.9
bossk 4,0
Trooper (double stem) 3,5
Han solo hoth 4,0
cc pilot on rotj front german esb back (afa) 3,9

Besides Chewie and R2 and Trooper all others are off! We have learned now that Chewie and IG are possibly more 3,3, and 3,4. All others seem to be more like 3,5-3,8.

C-3PO, BBSG, Bossk and Han Hoth are off....even the CCP ROTJ (german back)...and now guess what these have in comon:

1. All have the "lined" pattern!!!!
2. All these are on the List published by Joiner!!!

So I ask you all again and especially JC: Are you all sure that the lined pattern is originally factory sealed??

The only dead proof card I believe in now are the ones with the crescent flaws to the top of the blister. We have seen now lots of used cradbacks and two craded: ATAT Driver and Fett.

Here is the Fett again:
http://r25.imgfast.net/users/2511/13/96/10/album/german19.jpg

I cant see no pattern on those?!?!?


PS: Mirco/Mike_Skywalker will do messurements soon on all his loose cradbacks (about 34 German 45 backs). So will know more soon I guess!
 
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
 
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
 
wbobafett said:
First up I too think that the warping will happen in time. If faked surely a great bunch was sealed together at once in the beginning...about 20 years ago. Only nowadays they seeme to be made "by order"...though.



More important:

Another German collector has messured his potentional TT Mocs:

Chewie 3,4cm
c3po (AFA) 4,0
r2d2 double stem (UKG) 3,4
black security 3.9
bossk 4,0
Trooper (double stem) 3,5
Han solo hoth 4,0
cc pilot on rotj front german esb back (afa) 3,9

Besides Chewie and R2 and Trooper all others are off! We have learned now that Chewie and IG are possibly more 3,3, and 3,4. All others seem to be more like 3,5-3,8.

C-3PO, BBSG, Bossk and Han Hoth are off....even the CCP ROTJ (german back)...and now guess what these have in comon:

1. All have the "lined" pattern!!!!
2. All these are on the List published by Joiner!!!

So I ask you all again and especially JC: Are you all sure that the lined pattern is originally factory sealed??

The only dead proof card I believe in now are the ones with the crescent flaws to the top of the blister. We have seen now lots of used cradbacks and two craded: ATAT Driver and Fett.

Here is the Fett again:
http://r25.imgfast.net/users/2511/13/96/10/album/german19.jpg

I cant see no pattern on those?!?!?


PS: Mirco/Mike_Skywalker will do messurements soon on all his loose cradbacks (about 34 German 45 backs). So will know more soon I guess!
Click to expand...

I still have all the pictures of my gm mocs (now sold on a few years ago) if you want them for comparison I can mail them all to you.
 
jimbody1 said:
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
Click to expand...

From a Yorkshire that means the other party pays.
 
Cc4rhu said:
jimbody1 said:
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
Click to expand...

From a Yorkshire that means the other party pays.
Click to expand...

ofcourse! Lol! Mines half a pint of wifebeater in a pint glass with a double vodka and topped up with bull of the red type!
 

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