Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[mr_palitoy]

Whatever this brings: As I mentioned the GM cards with English text on the back are printed differently or have different cardboard. Can be clearly seen under blacklight where they are bluish (hard to photograph).

I'm still waiting for pictures of used GM cards or GM cards from stores with English text on the back.
Jason, found any so far?

Wolfgang

I saw a link to one on ebay which was bought in the UK. It was worn and had price sticker residue but the price sticker had fallen off.

Michel from hell said there were some example cards with english text on the back which were sold in Germany. I took him at his word.

Jason

Heres the one on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=%252BeQNEbtM7Q0HyCTvODfQTEZU%252B9E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Jason

cheers Jason

 

[kraftdermacht]

The carded figures where the bubbles have dimples in the corners may be carded figures which failed QC. This is the carded
stock that Toni got which we havent seen a list for yet.



Jason

Have any of these been found on definitely old cards?
In the moment I still think these are replica bubbles. (Would love that they are not :-| )

Wolfgang

 

[mr_palitoy]

The carded figures where the bubbles have dimples in the corners may be carded figures which failed QC. This is the carded
stock that Toni got which we havent seen a list for yet.



Jason

Have any of these been found on definitely old cards?
In the moment I still think these are replica bubbles. (Would love that they are not :-| )

Wolfgang

On JJ's list it lists a couple of boxes of bubbles. Some boxes are deemed to be bubbles which are damaged in some way
and not suitable for carding figures. Cards with bubble anomalies like that could be coming from the damaged bubbles
box.

Jason

 

[kraftdermacht]

On JJ's list it lists a couple of boxes of bubbles. Some boxes are deemed to be bubbles which are damaged in some way
and not suitable for carding figures. Cards with bubble anomalies like that could be coming from the damaged bubbles
box.

Jason

The marks shown above are from a regular production process and are not damages. QC would be fine for these.

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

Heres the one on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=%252BeQNEbtM7Q0HyCTvODfQTEZU%252B9E%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

cheers Jason

Thanks for looking this up.

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

They made missing or newly needed bubbles in the 2000s. Quite clear.
Everybody can check: http://web.archive.org/web/*/www.toytoni.com

TT offering :

I know TT offered no GM Power Droid and GM FX7 in the early 2000s. Special size bubbles needed!

2003
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo

2004 (kraftdermacht: ran out of small bubbles, or carded figures were sold)
esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 out of stock

2007 (kraftdermacht: Cool, suddenly snake variations, same with Ben white/grey)
esb yoda brown snake palitoy c8 £135 photo
esb yoda orange snake palitoy c8 £165 photo

Chewie with pictures blow.

Wolfgang

 

[kraftdermacht]

delete

answered below

 

[edd_jedi]

Great detective work! I think we've all established that the many different bubble types for the same figure/crdback are a dead giveaway, this would not have happened in a factory.

Here's one of the oldest archives of Toni's stock, from February 2002:

.esb han solo c9+Palitoy german issue £90 photo
.esb cloud car pilot Palitoy german issue c9+ £68 photo
.esb stormtrooper c9+ Palitoy german issue £75 photo
.esb leia organa c9 +Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb ben kenobi Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £95 photo
.esb black besp guard Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £65 photo
.esb leia bespin palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo
.esb chewbacca Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £75 photo
.esb at at driver Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£60 photo
.esb rebel commander Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£40
.esb rebel soldier Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £40
.esb han bespin Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75.
.esb bossk Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55
.esb r2d2 Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£80 photo
.esb leia hoth Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75
.esb 21b Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55
.esb white bespin guard c9+ £65 photo
.Star Wars 20 back Meccano (France) jawa c9+ £50 photo
.esb dutch Klipper walrus man c9+ £55photo
.esb dutch klipper rebel commander c9+£55 photo
. esb dutch klipper white bespin guard c9+£55 photo

And January 2003:

esb rare c3po palitoy german issue photo sold .....
esb r5d4 palitoy german issue c9+ call photo
esb han hoth palitoy german issue c9+ factory punched £60 photo
rare rotj cloud car pilot 45 back palitoy german issue £75 photo sold
.esb han solo c9+Palitoy german issue £90 photo
.esb cloud car pilot Palitoy german issue c9+ £68 photo sold
.esb stormtrooper c9+ Palitoy german issue £75 photo
.esb leia organa c9 +Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo sold
.esb ben kenobi Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £95 photo
.esb black besp guard Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £65 photo
.esb leia bespin palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £100 photo
.esb yoda palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £125 photo
.esb chewbacca Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £75 photo sold
.esb at at driver Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£60 photo
.esb rebel commander Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£40
.esb rebel soldier Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £40 photo
.esb han bespin Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75.
.esb bossk Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55 photo
.esb r2d2 Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£80 photo
.esb leia hoth Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+£75
.esb 21b Palitoy german issue factory punched c9+ £55 photo
.esb white bespin guard c9+ £65 photo
.Star Wars 20 back Meccano (France) jawa c9+ £50 photo
.esb dutch Klipper walrus man c9+ £55photo
.esb dutch klipper rebel commander c9+£55 photo
. esb dutch klipper white bespin guard c9+£55 photo

 

[lee gray]

Even if you put together all the active star wars forum members from different sites plus the fb star wars group members, that still comes to less than 10,000 active members when there are hundreds of thousands of collectors around the world so a huge percentage of people will continue to be totally oblivious to this which could cause probs when they sell on ebay.

 

[_Darren_]

This analogy mirrors the "horsemeat scandal" from last year.


TOYTONI=Horsemeat supply
Ebay/various traders=supermarkets
Unsuspecting collectors=consumers.

So TOYTONI corrupts the supply of Vintage figures entering the supply chain. Many retailers and resellers have these contaminants graded,further compounding the problem,by the "so called" Action Figure Authority.

The clamour for pristine figures and high grades propels the market and increases supply compounding the problem.

Once the contaminant is identified the retailers clear the shelves(pull auctions)and are left with worthless stock.

Consumers aren't so lucky....they either spent a lot believing they were getting prime beef(genuine MOC) and are left with horse.(Toni's ironing)

The inquest begins in earnest,trying to isolate who knew what and how this happened.

Consumers seek compensation....but are very unlikely to receive anything.

Darren

 

[inzaman]

Okay here's my opened 45 back ATAT driver that has a price sticker on it. It has the red dot next to Chewbacca and the ATAT driver looks a bit of a mess as though one of the printing plates was out. Also the ROTJ logo has like a purple shadow on the left hand side. I also still have the original bubble so have also taken a picture of that to show the seal. You can also see what is like pressure marks on the back where the bubble would have been?

 

[edd_jedi]

Very useful:

1) Badly printed cards definitely got through QC to retail
2) No iron mark between stem on a factory sealed double stemmed bubble

 

[ace]

Jason (J):

You've still not answered my question regarding the 1000 carded figures you had. 440 Fetts were opened - that still leaves 560 carded figures which you got from Arthur and sold on. These could've been post factory sealed (evidence those jarg upside down Hoth Tropers).

I'm not trying to deflect from Toni here just trying to get the whole picture.

In my opinion though your answer to what you would've done if you'd been able to purchase everything on Arthur's list is a bit disingenuous - you wouldn't've even tried to seal a bubble to a card? This DOES NOT RING TRUE especially with other members calling you out on you selling fake props which you've only vaguely answered.

Not having a go at you Jason - just want to get a clearer picture that's all.

hi theslider

your point 1
yes i sold 1000 figures on that may now have been exposed as not being what we all thought they were back then? the same as Jim and everybody else we thought they were ok and we all sold also back then . so whats your point ? we are no differing that all the innocent traders that have sold Toni's figures as being correct so i do not see the point you are trying to make.


your point 2
you say you are not trying to deflect from Toni but this dose do exactly that.

you say you just trying to get the whole picture. i have been cross examined by around 15 different people now and have written pages on this and every time i have ether proven my point verbally or put up evidence to prove 100% my side of things , Toni is the only one that needs to come on here and say soothing i have nothing to hide and all i have done is come on here and say the truth

point 3
as you do not know me and your opinion of me is made up from trash that has been written from people that just do not know or people that are misinformed and just people that are jealous of me it is relevant what you think of my actions would have been if i had have gotten these card deal back then , what is fact i have told you what my actions would have been as that comes from me , and if you did get to know me well you would also know that is the truth , so please do not try to tell me what i would do or would not do you do not even know me .
.

my point

others do have info but have been watching these threads and see how from time to time how i am cross examined and they think there is no way i am going on there and saying what i know and have to deal with that and this is whey we are not getting even more people step up and say what they know, and these people are reading this post , i know one or two of them are looking but are never going to post.



you say your not having a go , but you basically are calling me a lier ? theslider which is not true and not nice ether.


jason

 

[kraftdermacht]

Thought I bought all GM Toni offered. Now I see on JJs list:

EMPIRE CARDS (GERMAN):
DENGAR 11
HAMMERHEAD 69
WALRUSMAN 56

Anyone got these on German GM? Or are they ESB English Palitoy?

Wolfgang

May answer it myself. These are the Clipper, arn't they? Dengar only 11 --> £295
Again, Dengar and Hammerhead were not yet offered in the early 2000s --> special size bubbles needed that were available later.
esb dutch clipper dengar c8.5 £295 photo
esb dutch clipper walrus man c9 photo sold
esb dutch clipper rebel commander c8.5 £110 photo
esb dutch clipper white bespin guard c8.5 £110 photo
esb dutch clipper hammerhead c8.5 £195 photo

 

[lee gray]

i purchased 2 of the Dengar clippers from Toni one from 2007 that was afa graded
and one in 2008 in c9 condition that i got graded and Josh has, now if 9 more people can come forward to say they got one from Toni, that would go over the 11 it states on the sheet and this then would prove invalid considering he still has clipper dengar in stock.

 

[escapist]

i purchased 2 of the Dengar clippers from Toni one from 2007 that was afa graded
and one in 2008 in c9 condition that i got graded and Josh has, now if 9 more people can come forward to say they got one from Toni, that would go over the 11 it states on the sheet and this then would prove invalid considering he still has clipper dengar in stock.

I check ebay and he hasn't sold any Dengar Clippers on there since 2007.

The only Dengar sold forms part of the lot entitled:

GERMAN GENERAL MILLS ESB DENGAR LEIA 4LOM C3PO CARDBACKS (#251224109995)

 

[lee gray]

As soon as my figures arrive i upload pics on RS
I Recieved this one Dec 8TH 2007 http://forum.rebelscum.com/photogallery/showphoto.php/photo/45361/title/esb-duch-clipper-dengar/cat/500 as shown on sidebar
and this one Dec 4th 2008, almost a year later, guess it took a year for me to miss it lol http://forum.rebelscum.com/photogallery/showphoto.php/photo/85722/title/d22/cat/500

I purchased mine direct through phone though not ebay.

I wonder if gentle giant will do a toytoni light blue fett special jumbo carded figure

Edit: just double checked to see if i paid via paypal for the AFA dengar.

Sent to:
Anthony Emchowicz (The recipient of this payment is Non-US – Verified)
Email:
[email protected]
Payment sent to:

[email protected]
Amount sent:
-£320.00 GBP
Fee amount:
£0.00 GBP
Net amount:
-£320.00 GBP

Date:
3 Dec 2007
Time:
14:56:25 PST
Status:
Completed

it was cheaper than that he was selling it for but if paid through paypal then he wanted the extra few percent.

 

[StarWarsAlways]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

 

[PIGCITY]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

Just my opinion but what would be the benefit of that? 120 pages long and no one can figure out WTF has occurred to what, when, why and who was involved.

 

[StarWarsAlways]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

Just my opinion but what would be the benefit of that? 120 pages long and no one can figure out WTF has occurred to what, when, why and who was involved.

That's why I asked..

 

[spoons]

120 pages long and no one can figure out WTF has occurred to what, when, why and who was involved.

That needs to go on Joe's update thread - sums the situation up perfectly

 

[jedisearcher]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

I think you should alert him to the likelihood that gm esb 45s plus some palitoy 65s are modern sealed.

We don't know who did what or why, but why should your friend risk wasting his money on crap if there is a chance ...

Chris

 

[lee gray]

I have an old school friend who is a producer for the BBC.. He and I were Star Wars mad in the seventies (I still am).

Would it be a good idea I bring this to his attention?

Just my opinion but what would be the benefit of that? 120 pages long and no one can figure out WTF has occurred to what, when, why and who was involved.

That's why I asked..

lol

i might need a favour from your friend as my company keeps messing my wages up for 4 months in a row now when each month they say it will be sorted and it should be bought to the attention of the public at how cuntish they are to their staff, I would have to be hidden and voice changed though

 

[itfciain]

So are we saying the Clippers are now likely to be dodgy as well ? That brings my tally up to six cards potentially affected with a previous value of around £750-£900

 

[StarWarsAlways]

Just my opinion but what would be the benefit of that? 120 pages long and no one can figure out WTF has occurred to what, when, why and who was involved.[/quote]

That's why I asked..[/quote]
lol

i might need a favour from your friend as my company keeps messing my wages up for 4 months in a row now when each month they say it will be sorted and it should be bought to the attention of the public at how cuntish they are to their staff, I would have to be hidden and voice changed though [/quote]

Lol

 

[kraftdermacht]

So are we saying the Clippers are now likely to be dodgy as well ? That brings my tally up to six cards potentially affected with a previous value of around £750-£900

For the 5 Clippers Toni has on his site I would say yes. :-(

Can be clearly seen with Dengar and Hammerhead popping up mid 2000s with these "newer" bubbles.

Wolfgang

 

[itfciain]

So are we saying the Clippers are now likely to be dodgy as well ? That brings my tally up to six cards potentially affected with a previous value of around £750-£900

For the 5 Clippers Toni has on his site I would say yes. :-(

Can be clearly seen with Dengar and Hammerhead popping up mid 2000s with these "newer" bubbles.

Wolfgang

Yep I have minty versions of the Hammerhead and Walrusman (AFA90) - bugger

 

[theslider]

hi theslider

your point 1
yes i sold 1000 figures on that may now have been exposed as not being what we all thought they were back then? the same as Jim and everybody else we thought they were ok and we all sold also back then . so whats your point ? we are no differing that all the innocent traders that have sold Toni's figures as being correct so i do not see the point you are trying to make.


your point 2
you say you are not trying to deflect from Toni but this dose do exactly that.

you say you just trying to get the whole picture. i have been cross examined by around 15 different people now and have written pages on this and every time i have ether proven my point verbally or put up evidence to prove 100% my side of things , Toni is the only one that needs to come on here and say soothing i have nothing to hide and all i have done is come on here and say the truth

point 3
as you do not know me and your opinion of me is made up from trash that has been written from people that just do not know or people that are misinformed and just people that are jealous of me it is relevant what you think of my actions would have been if i had have gotten these card deal back then , what is fact i have told you what my actions would have been as that comes from me , and if you did get to know me well you would also know that is the truth , so please do not try to tell me what i would do or would not do you do not even know me .
.

my point

others do have info but have been watching these threads and see how from time to time how i am cross examined and they think there is no way i am going on there and saying what i know and have to deal with that and this is whey we are not getting even more people step up and say what they know, and these people are reading this post , i know one or two of them are looking but are never going to post.



you say your not having a go , but you basically are calling me a lier ? theslider which is not true and not nice ether.


jason

Point 1 - therefore someone else - Arthur Bailey - was resealing the figures, he then sells everything on the list to TT and tells him how to reseal the bubbles. The extremely shoddy seals that you own now and came from TT could've come from Arthur originally.

Point 2 - Fair enough - I don't know you and never even heard of you before this thread!

 

[David Tree]

Do you see what I'm getting at??....Dave Tree is one of the most stand-up guys I know in life and the hobby....sorry for mentioning you Davy,but FF5 might be the most well attended important event yet....and ideal platform to sort this mess.

Darren

Sorry for being about 50 pages behind, but thanks very much Darren, where do I send the cheque?

 

[jedisearcher]

No one questioning how did this has managed to adequately explain Toni's second ebay account. JJ can't be guilty of that although there are still many loose ends.

My loss is about £1500 so far, about £900 direct to Toni, £150 from eBay and the rest from Vectis. Gutted.