Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[paulcalf]

Shop sold cardbacks also have those dark stripes across the logo. I noticed them on a load of cardbacks I just received, so went and checked my childhood ones and some of them also had the stripes. It is amazing the things the eye can see miss for years.

Printing errors on some cardbacks but not others from the same batch, should not surprise anyone.

Think of the big trilogo 'proof sheet' / chromlin that was just shown at FF4. There may be 4 Han Trench coat cards produced per batch, but a printing error may only be present on one tiny part of a printing plate and therefore you could easily end up with 3 Han cards with no marks, but the 4th Han may have blemishes.

I don't own any carded figures. I think anyone who has bought a carded figure from TT in the last few months should send close up pics to Olisuds to compare with the U grade figure purchases. Otherwise you will never find out when and who has been doing the 'suspect' sealing.

Or does anyone know of a Star Wars collector who also happens to work for MI5/MI6 who could go and fit hidden recording devices at key locations. It would be great to have a fly on the wall!

What leads to the "rejected because of quality issues" theory would be more the very dark stripes cross the logo. I find these on several of my TT figures but not on my loose cards.

 

[olisuds]

Toni isn't going to post a picture of his stock or anything else

But why wouldn't you if it would put all this to bed?

I also think you are being a bit dismissive of people's efforts to try and find out what is going on - a lot of people have £100's if not £1000's tied up in all of this mess and are rightly worried

Iain, I agree, why wouldn't you post a picture if it put all this to bed. I'm just saying he's not going to. Just like Jason is not going to produce the list.

I'm not being dismissive of people's efforts but we have 100 pages with a lot of circumstantial evidence so far. Most of Toni's MOCs are pristine condition and analysing minuscule details or slight QC errors is not going to achieve anything further that what we already know. It's not the smoking gun! It doesn't prove Toni sealed the MOCs and so far we have no proof that the MOCs Jason provided with the earlier poor attempt to seal the bubble originated from Toni either. These have been circulating for more than 20 years in extremely high numbers so they aren't just coming from Toni now. Many will have been sold on many many times. Who knows for sure whether the effected MOCs ALL originate from Toni or not. Who knows whether the Palitoy factory didnt just pump out all the poor QC MOCs when they were closing down to salvage some money. How can you piece evidence together from 25 years ago and come to a solid and certain conclusion for something so complex?

All I'm saying is that before we post another 100 pages why dont we try and think what direction this is heading in and what we are trying to achieve.

Also Iain I have provided details of Toni's 30 other eBay IDs for his second account used to by loose figures. I have also downloaded macro photos for all the loose mint figures he has purchased over the last month that have likely ended up on MOCs he has sold. I have asked for help in IDing the loose figures against his MOCs but no one has taken me up on this offer despite it being the only conclusive way to catch him in action red handed.

So I think Iain you are reading me being dismissive when really it is frustration at everyone running around like headless chickens and not getting anywhere.

 

[itfciain]

Oli, I am not questioning your effort and appreciate what you are doing with the loose figures. I can only guess that no-one reading these threads has purchased a MOC from Toni in the past 30 days

Oh, and although we have no proof that JJ's cards came from TT - a member has produced a card that he purchased from TT that shows the 'iron marks' so there is a small trail there

Finally, the 'running around like headless chickens' has bought us to this point - where even Toni's most loyal defenders are not able to make excuses anymore

 

[galactables]

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

What? What you looking at? :lol:

Robbie- im sure as a business that you don't want strangers going through you paperwork, but if you could give some concrete information to one of the MODs on here, I think it would be great to correlate which figures a bought in quantities.

I think it maybe possible, to narrow down these backing cards to just a few MOCs.

Grant, you really have annoyed me over the last year or so. So much so, that you were one of the reasons I attended CE2. Nevertheless, I'm over that now and no longer have any beef with you. You angered me with a post on RS (admittedly you did delete it), but the past is the past.

Look, I am not out to bring anybody down. I am sitting on a lot of stuff from Toni which is being called in to question, so I have every right to be annoyed by all this. I have mentioned the figures in question and I keep all my records and emails. I have no proof that Toni was doing anything wrong, and neither has anybody, so I am not going to crucify the guy. If, as alleged, Toni has been doing this for many many years, then getting u grades from me just in recent years, really doesn't add much weight to the fact that he has been buying u grades on ebay. Everything is purely circumstantial so far.

 

[olisuds]

Oli, I am not questioning your effort and appreciate what you are doing with the loose figures. I can only guess that no-one reading these threads has purchased a MOC from Toni in the past 30 days

Oh, and although we have no proof that JJ's cards came from TT - a member has produced a card that he purchased from TT that shows the 'iron marks' so there is a small trail there

Finally, the 'running around like headless chickens' has bought us to this point - where even Toni's most loyal defenders are not able to make excuses anymore

I highly doubt that no one on reading this thread has bought a MOC from Toy Toni in the last 30 days. I think more likely that my offer was lost amongst the 98 pages that people can no longer be bothered to read.

Lets face it how many people can say they have read all 98 pages of this thread. We're probably already over the 100 page mark before I've finished this post.

Anyway I wont let my frustration boil over and I will leave it at that and check in again in another 100 pages to see where this is at.

 

[itfciain]

For all those who don't want to read the 100 pages then this is a good summary from Josh over on TIG

JJ = Jason joiner TT = Toy Toni

Dec 3rd 2013
* JJ is invited onto the forum (SWFUK) by Maulster (Grant) to discuss his (JJ) Palitoy VC jawa and other things.

Dec 5th 2013 The day it all went pear shaped.

*JJ during a post about back in the day lets slip that there was a huge quantity, 25,000 total, of unused card backs and blisters that ended up in Toni's Hands. These were dealt through a chap named Arthur.

*MR Palitoy (Jason) picks up on this and I am sure others did, and the **** storm starts from here.

*Two other collectors either confirm the card back story (To a degree), or give an account of hearing about TT buying up loose figures being passed around the grapevine.

*TT comes on and gives an account of what happened. Says he hasn't really had much to do with Arthur, says he bought a few bits off him, no card backs, and puts it down to a fabrication by JJ. It calms things down a little and the shift turns back onto JJ for a while.

*Lots of speculation about the heat sealing process ensues. And bubble checking begins.

*Chris Caswellbot gives an account of a discussion with Jim Stevenson to clarify earlier what he had wrote. Again he confirms Jim recalls TT buying a load of stuff including unused card backs (no mention of bubbles)

*Speculation about what is going on with the card backs from Germany is starting to gather speed.

*More talk of the heat sealing process being to difficult according to 'Experts' in the field.

* Mr Shifter discovers Arthur and Toni were partners. Toni's explanation is it was an internet company Arthur wanted help with starting up. All TT said he did was set it up as Arthur wasn't that switched on in that regard.

*Most people who were leaning towards Jason being full of s--- start heading towards the other side of the fence.

*Wolf is starting to realise anomalies he has spotted in the past with his COO guide are starting to make sense if random figures had been carded onto unused card backs.

* James Simmonds gives an account of hearing Jason talking to one of his workers at a con saying the Fetts he has for sale are being made up for sale. He takes this as JJ is making these Fett's

*Palitoy ROTJ Fett's go under the microscope

Dec 11th 2013

*A second eBay account for TT is revealed by Joe O. It is buying up minty and "u" graded figures in quantity that happened to match his sales list for carded figures or strikingly close.

*Rangers Jedi says he has sold loads of loose figures to the second account belonging to tony. He particularly liked Yoda.

*TT asked to explain by Mr Palitoy via email...no response or flippant reply.

*TT hides eBAy account from view. And at this point it is also revealed the account has had it's name changed 30 times over the years.



Dec 15th 2013 It all happens pretty quick from now on...

*Mattias mentions something he has felt was not quite right with the examples he had from Toy Toni stock. Errors with the cards to do with the printing. Unused card backs and MOC appear to have the same print error but don't don't seem to match wild caught MOC examples of the same figure (c3PO)

*JJ meets with collectors @ FF4. He brings with him 17 MOC figures and it is shown how some of these cards have been sealed. The use of a household iron and spray on glue in some cases.

*TT remains quiet at this stage

*Collectors are furiously trying to work out effected pieces.

*TT replies to Jason via email which once again lacks any serious defence of the allegations that have been presented.

 

[Chico]

I think an important discovery by Maulster79 has been missed in the last few pages:

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

Image

Image

Image

Image

His came from JJ when they are being pinned on Toni. Apart from Maulster79 the only other established member of this forum that said they had a similar 'ironed' hoth trooper like this was Lee Gray - who thought it came from Jim Stevenson. Again not Toni

Some 'new' members have appeared on this forum in the last week or so and are throwing a serious amount of mud all in one direction. And to me it appears agenda driven.

The actual evidence that has been contributed by established and trusted members of this forum does not look good for Toni. However some of the other 'evidence' doesn't add up and i don't think we're asking the right questions about certain people's motivations on here. If mud is flying lets make sure it sticks to the right people!!! :x

 

[jay4]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

 

[Lafos]

---

 

[lee gray]

If I purchased all the parts for a rolls royce and assembled it myself, would it still be a rolls royce ?

 

[panastur]

If I purchased all the parts for a rolls royce and assembled, would it still be a rolls royce ?

Damn Lee, that was exactly what i said last night to another friend... but with a F40 Ferrari parts.

...and yes, it would be a Rolls Royce. I don't know why it's accepted in the car collector world to restore a car with genuine pieces and not here...!!!??

...Only joking!

JC

 

[Lafos]

If I purchased all the parts for a rolls royce and assembled it myself, would it still be a rolls royce ?

The value of this "new" RR would not be as high as an original manufactured RR in his original condition.

AND the possible value of a car is not determined by it´s factory sealed blister.

 

[M4K3R1]

I think an important discovery by Maulster79 has been missed in the last few pages:

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

Image

Image

Image

Image

His came from JJ when they are being pinned on Toni. Apart from Maulster79 the only other established member of this forum that said they had a similar 'ironed' hoth trooper like this was Lee Gray - who thought it came from Jim Stevenson. Again not Toni

Some 'new' members have appeared on this forum in the last week or so and are throwing a serious amount of mud all in one direction. And to me it appears agenda driven.

The actual evidence that has been contributed by established and trusted members of this forum does not look good for Toni. However some of the other 'evidence' doesn't add up and i don't think we're asking the right questions about certain people's motivations on here. If mud is flying lets make sure it sticks to the right people!!! :x

Also the hoth trooper posted by Vernon pg21, replied to on pg25, added photos on pg83.
Hoth troopers with ironed seals =2 fromm JJ, 1 from Jim, and another posted on RS by jitterbug, none are from TT.

 

[lee gray]

I think an important discovery by Maulster79 has been missed in the last few pages:

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

Image

Image

Image

Image

His came from JJ when they are being pinned on Toni. Apart from Maulster79 the only other established member of this forum that said they had a similar 'ironed' hoth trooper like this was Lee Gray - who thought it came from Jim Stevenson. Again not Toni

Some 'new' members have appeared on this forum in the last week or so and are throwing a serious amount of mud all in one direction. And to me it appears agenda driven.

The actual evidence that has been contributed by established and trusted members of this forum does not look good for Toni. However some of the other 'evidence' doesn't add up and i don't think we're asking the right questions about certain people's motivations on here. If mud is flying lets make sure it sticks to the right people!!! :x

Yeah I definately got it from jim stevenson as it was my first ever toy show i went to in 96 when POTF2 came out and me and my mate Adam popped down to westminster toyfair that was advertised in model and collector mart and he bought a kenner leai bespin and me the hoth trooper with real messed up bubble although the card was creaseless but i just couldnt stand the look of the bubble and i thought it was glued, so i wanted shot of it, if i recall it only cost me 35 pound and let me mate have it for 20

 

[Grant_C]

I have a bad feeling about this- Han Solo

Guys,

The allegation is about 20+ years.

Its going to take time to get to the truth and I think everyone is doing a great job.

I don't think everything is as it seems and don't feel comfortable with this at all. Maybe its something simple, maybe not.

I stepping back from all this. Feel free to PM or phone for banter on it.

Keep taking those photos and making comparisons on trades, asking questions- im sure something will come of it.

Today is a big STAR WARS DAY.

Why?

Because this thread got to 100 pages?

Nope.

In 2 years today we will all be cold, standing outside a cinema. in 2 years today- Episode VII opens.

Good Luck

 

[**Delboy75**]

@ Jason Joiner, how come you ended up with the fetts and hoth troopers from Arthur?
Sorry if I missed it but its odd that with everything on the 'list' you choose 500 of each of these.
You bought these direct from Arthur? who you said you knew well and looked up to.

You must of purchased these before Toni bought up everything else Arthur had on the list, otherwise Toni would of bought the troopers and fetts too.
Toni could not of sealed the troopers, as that would mean you purchased them off him, which is something you said you have never done.
So the troopers were either sealed by Arthur or youself? No way are those upside down troopers palitoy rejects.

 

[panastur]

Here's another i found in my stack of cardbacks... a 65 back Snowtrooper with clear sealing attempt iron marks.
Don't remember where i bought it...sorry :?

JC

 

[plantman]

I think Josh's breakdown on TIG is an excellent idea, and maybe should be added to and pinned to the start of the thread, ill discuss with Joe if he wants to take control of that.

 

[**Delboy75**]

That bubble also came off leaving very little damage.

 

[Stargeezer]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

 

[spoons]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

the bubble is also correct on this one, if the wear is genuine bubble wear

 

[panastur]

im wandering if anyone has noticed any type of paintwear on any figures under the bubbles that arent condusive with factory error or paint rubbing of inside bubble ? just on my 2001/2002 tt bought direct gm bossk he has paint loss on 3 toes onfront and underneath on one foot and same on 2 toes the other .ive examined the bubble and theres no evidence of rub off or paint transfer AT ALL not a single piece of green paint evident on bubble ! sort of making me think that a bossk that wasnt quite minty mint was placed on the card in hope it would not be noticed or is it wear from factory ? can feet really suffer that much paint loss within a bubble and not leave any trace at all ? i dont know - i hadnt noticed before it was only by photo enlargement is een it proper

Can't see the picture here at work, but the rubbed off paint could be around somewhere in minor flakes along the bubble seal if the paint rubbed off inside the bubble. It doesn't neccesarly has to be on the bubble in front off the figures feet.

Also people who have bought cards in the 90 not directly from Toni and now saying these came not from Toni, there is no absolutae garantee, he could have sold them before and then they somehow ended up with you.... You can only say you did not buy it directly from Toni.... It's the same as you cannot say Toni makes those, only that lots off those originated from Toni....


Also i think the RR or Ferrari is a wrong comparasing here, not every hobby handles/accepts the same rules.. I read somewhere in this thread early'er another comparasing with finding an painters sketch, acrylic and brushes. And you use all these original materials make the sketch into the painting, do you a have real "rembrandt" or whatever??? nope

the bubble is also correct on this one, if the wear is genuine bubble wear

mmmm :? . The inside toe can't touch the bubble, so it seems impossible to be a genuine rub off. Looks like a typical play wear... A TT recard maybe??

 

[robsolo32]

Toni being silent is all the proof i need personally but like Joe says if we can find one of his U grade figures mounted on a card that would be perfect.

I agree here! You find one, and the rest would be "guilty by association."

Rob

 

[lee gray]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

 

[**Delboy75**]

I would be fairly certain the easiest way to spot the fakes would be by the back of the card.

All the genuine ones ive seen so far have marks on the back from where the bubbles were attached.
The correct press would apply a fair amount of force, so it marks the back of the cards.

Checking my old pics and none of the one I bought from Toni in 2011 had this, which would indicate they were either glued or heat was applied from the front.

The more I see the more the colours are off too. Josh on RS posted a real GM Dengar next to a Toni one and the Toni one is way darker, too much black so its another possible reject.

 

[PIGCITY]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

:wink:

 

[itfciain]

Just been through some of mine and found 4 that would fit into this category - none came directly from Toni but all are minty - not really sure what to look out for - there are certainly no iron marks - the only one with a pink dot next to Chewie is the Lobot. If anyone wants close up pic of anything then let me know

 

[tiefighterboy]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

 

[itfciain]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

Is it though. I am confused by the relevance that JJ has to this whole mess. Whatever his involvement at the start (something he has admitted) - it is Toni that has been selling these cards off for the past X amount of years

Can anyone trace a line back to JJ for a card that they have purchase in the past 10 years?

 

[tiefighterboy]

I am pretty sure the original pot calling the kettle black is also a black kettle too.

and that is the one thing many people are missing in all this.

Is it though. I am confused by the relevance that JJ has to this whole mess. Whatever his involvement at the start (something he has admitted) - it is Toni that has been selling these cards off for the past X amount of years

Can anyone trace a line back to JJ for a card that they have purchase in the past 10 years?

Can anyone find any hard evidence in what he is saying????? Toni is suspect for sure, but I feel there is much more to this whole mess than meets the eye. Everyone seems to think that a Quality Department at Palitoy catches 100% of defects and that they would reject packaging (meant to be a container for product) for the slightest error. It is a business and for profit. These were never intended to be high end blemish free collectible and as some one said before...when a factory has stock to get rid of and closing...they tend to get really sloppy (Two packs for example). I also think If you put any carded figures under a microscope \you will find that bubbles can vary and be off. I do agree you guys may have found something off, but I also think there is a huge amount of panic based on some amount of potential evidence found by individuals and a huge amouint of conjecture by someone who may have another motive after many years of silence in the community.

Just my opinion. :wink:

In addition...No list has come up (That could be manufactured anyways) and a handful of poorly resealed product...that could have been made yesterday for all anyone knows.