Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[StarWarsAlways]

I attended one of Jason Joiner's Star Wars events down south, back in the nineties, Declan Mulholland and Peter Diamond were amongst the guests doing signings. I remember there were loads of mint carded ROTJ figures in clear comic style plastic bags for sale at the stalls just off from the main hall. I could not believe my eyes, where had all these figures come from in such amazing condition? I quickly snapped up a Farmboy Luke (Tatooine image, pretty sure they had the gun port vers. as well) on ROTJ card for around £45-£50 I think it was.. It's in storage now with the rest of my collection.


Now I know it was too good to be true..

 

[ace]

ok guys so you want to call me out ? well its not the first time on here and it will not be the lat time , it is a wast of all our time and its really not going to help resolve this matter and help us learn more about what toni has getting up to ?

you are both losing site or the real crime here and the person that is hiding from everyone and dare not respond to many of the people on heres points ?

well i will respond to your points , you then can try to twist what i say and you can try to catch me out , but there is nothing here for me to be caught out on so i will respond.

one other thing guys its easy to attack the messenger , but have you thought whats its like to be the message ?

There is two of you at this time calling me out right now, there has been many in this thread around 15 so far, it would be easier for me to just not bother and walk away 50 pages back, but that would be wrong for the collating community and the right thing to do here is stand my ground and fight for the truth, not that you will remember this post by the end of this thread when its get to 150 pages ?.

i am the whistle blower here and i am the messenger and time will show i am doing the right thing for all collectors and i will came one thing for may self credit for standing my ground and telling the truth how ever hard it was.

now to your points
1
when i bought the figures from Arthur i thought they would all be in good shape when they turned up some of the Hoth troopers were messed up , these i stated to sell of at the time and for many years latter and i sold them off for no more than lose figures sold for at the same time as i felt the cards were worthless and that was all i could get for them,

i did not sell them at a premium or at the mint carded price so what they were was not really important to anyone 10 years ago , the better carded troopers i did sell also and i thought they were smiler to the mismatched carded figures that were also turning up at that time some of the bubbles were not amazing but thought nothing more about it till this all kicked off so know crime there .


2
the fetts i paid 45p each for them and sold them for 1.50p each and they were opened that night when Craig got them that night
i thought they were fine factory carded figures as they looked good to me and Craig was happy with his 440 fetts and as he opened them he did not care what cards they were and they looked good and just opened them so no crime there ether ?

3

i knew there was 25,000 figures but there was carded figures and cards and figures and at that time it was a little confusing what Arthur had so i took them for what they looked like figures on cards with some that looked like seconds or rejects ? but most looked good and the fetts looked very good and even now i do not know with all this info coming out if there were good or not ?



so thats it again guys thats the truth , i hope if Toni comes on here you drill him in the same way ;-).

jason

 

[M4K3R1]

Jason, not calling anybody out mate.
I am how ever stating the only real and proven fact in this debate,
and that is by your admission, not knowing, are the source for hundreds of these being put out to the masses, even though you yourself questioned them at the time, and still sold them on.
Its irrellevent what you sold them for at the time.
You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

 

[ace]

let me respond to all your points just incase people think i am avoiding something when i am 100% not

Isnt that exactlly what TT has said, he knows nothing about the post factory sealing,

but he dose as he offered to trade with me for the figures he needed to put on the cards when he first got them , so he knows it and i know he knows it , it happened its just you do not know and only have my word as there is fragmented evidence but its the truth.

just the same as you knew nothing about it.

no he knew i did not know what i bought was put together this way and in fact i still do not know what i sold was done that way , it is likely now everything has come to light, but at the time i did not know , Toni knew as he bought the cards and he has been buying up the figures he needs to put them on the cards again it seems from his Ebay 30 name change account.

You seem hellbent on pinning this on him without any proof.

no there is lost of proof and he has done this it will become clear

can i ask you also why are you hellbent on making it out i have a vendetta on Toni when i have not , am just telling it how it is no more no less

You always redirect any question to yourself back to concentrating on TT, why,

well i do not consider myself on trial here as i have not done anything wrong or criminal.

also as this thread is mostly about Toni selling these figures by himself for a minimum of over 10 years why is that part anything to do with me.

can i also ask you why when there is so much evidence coming up about things that have not involved me in any way for over a decade why do you feel to try to discredit me or try to involve me in a negative way , when i have nothing to do with Toni or his activates in any way for around 15 to 20 years ? it is odd mate.

why not question others than TT.

well i know Toni knows the real truth and aS Arthur has past away only Toni can tell us what he has been doing for the last 15 to 20 years , who else would you sagest going after to ask questions about what happend to the U graded figures Toni has been buying in the last 15 to 20 years ?

Not doubting the fact about the post factory seals being sold by TT,

so you agree that Toni is selling post factory seals carded figures ? ok well thats good as i was told by Toni and Arthur that Toni bought these cards and figures so thats manes that someone we just have to work out who put the bubbles on the card when they lived at Toni's house ? maybe its the janitor ? or Honk Kong Fuwey ?

or the fact that they are post factory seals done by someone at home,

you mean Toni's home right ?

But were is the hard and concrete proof that TT is actually doing the sealling himself.

we do not have a camera on the wall my friend , but that dose not mean just because WE do not have 100% proof but there is so much other evidence its getting close to being able to go legal if someone wanted to i can see that and i think many on here can also now .

its like the moon landings , me in my home right now cannot prove we wheat to the moon but there is a lot of evidence around me showing me they did but it would be hard for me to prove it tonight in my house.

As for TT bying the U grade figures that match up to the type of figures TT is selling on sealed cards,
can you or anyone actually match a loose figure TT bought to one TT sold on a sealled card.

good people are woking on it as we speak

If you cant, then all you have is TT selling the post factory seals unknowinglly, just the same as you did.

i think in the last week we have found out loads this is still very young give us another week and more will come out , i know of several people that are holding back as they do not want to have to go thought these as they would be seen also as the messenger.

Not questioning the post factory sealed debate,
but the fact that you are still acusing him of doing the sealling himself,with out the solid evidence need to prove this.

no i do nto think i ever said he is doing it himself , all i said was that he bought them when they were not put together and he is selling the same cards that was offered to me and that he said he bought assembled thats what i said.

are you trying to get me to say something that that could put me in a legally bad position ? are you a good friend of Toni ? you seem very pro Toni and are really trying to put a very negative slant on me and give an excuse for everything we have discovered on Toni's activates

Hope you understand what i am trying to convey to you.

you are trying to convey that i am a vindictive person all out for revenge and that Toni has done nothing really wrong and we cannot prove anything if he had done anything ?
Did i get what you are trying to convey right Oscar ?

well Toni told me himself he bought the cards and figures the end, so where are the cards now without the figures on them ? why is Toni buying U grad figures ?

i am sorry Oscar its well past all this everyone can see it happened , we do not need a devil's advocate if you really want to help people that have been wronged then maybe you should start to help all the 100s of people that have bought things that now are looking to me worthless and the other collectors that even have good genuine figures that are also going to be affected if we do not get to the bottom of all this .

so maybe you should start to help and take the side of the victims of all this the collectors rather than trying to take apart my credibility as i am just the whistle blower

Regards.
Oscar.

hope that helps and i hope you donot think me as coming over to harsh but i have had to deal with this now for many days and i think we all really need to get past this point , there is way to much circumstantial evidence that can be proven now Oscar you have to see that now

jason

 

[ace]

You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

i think you are trying to twist what i am saying and you are really side-tracking this and you are not helping anyone M4K3R1

look at this figure , look at it can there is something wrong with it ,this is what turned up from Arthur some of them was as bad as this i thought at the time that they came from the factory as seconded ? that was my belief i have never been shore what the true story was and is on these figures i bought to be frank, so i cannot sell them as anything other that what it is, i could not have warned anyone or lied or anything as there was nothing i knew about them apart from what you see , and thats is there is something thats not right with it and any cusormer can see that by looking at it 100%

on these its is a big fault but the rest was good and seemed good so i sold them on i have to also say there was not just cards and lose figures on that list i got from Arthur there was lost of carded figures also so why would i think they were not the carded figures i was offered and came from the factory like all the figures i had bought in the past ?, think about it i got what i thought i had bought why would i think differently?

 

[M4K3R1]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

 

[ace]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

M4K3R1 how many cards do you have in your collection that is going to be affected if what we have uncovered here is proven to be 100% proven and walter tight ?

because you are fighting a battle that is lost already

jason

 

[M4K3R1]

You didnt sell them loose, you sold them carded, and they are still floating around today.
Wether or not the collectors at the time you sold them to, were as fussy as collectors are today, means nothing.
Items you yourself have said you questioned, were passed on by you at the time.
I wonder if as you sold all these items back then, you let the buyer know your suspicions.
Does that make sense to you.

i think you are trying to twist what i am saying and you are really side-tracking this and you are not helping anyone M4K3R1

look at this figure , look at it can there is something wrong with it ,this is what turned up from Arthur some of them was as bad as this i thought at the time that they came from the factory as seconded ? that was my belief i have never been shore what the true story was and is on these figures i bought to be frank, so i cannot sell them as anything other that what it is, i could not have warned anyone or lied or anything as there was nothing i knew about them apart from what you see , and thats is there is something thats not right with it and any cusormer can see that by looking at it 100%

on these its is a big fault but the rest was good and seemed good and i have to say there was not just cards on that list so why would i think they were not the carded figures i was offered and came from the factory like that , think about i,t i got what i thought i had bought why would i think differently?

Yes there is a big fault on that, the triangular tip shape in the 2 top corners or the bubble, what is now being called the Iron on seal.
You got it from the batch you bought like that.
Not twisting, not sidetracking. The community is doing quite an excellnt job peicing how to tell the differnce from good and bad.
If you recieved the batch like that, what to say the batch TT got was'nt the same.
The only thing you can link TT name to is selling these for now, not making them.

 

[M4K3R1]

Look Jason, i wont be commenting after this.
Where is the proof TT is doing the sealing himself.
Circumstantial is not proof.
Heresay is not proff.
Your opinion is not proof.
It is proven that he is selling a dodgy batch, same as you with out knowing.
Until other provable facts arrise, thats all it is.

Cheers mate.

M4K3R1 how many cards do you have in your collection that is going to be affected if what we have uncovered here is proven to be 100% proven and walter tight ?

because you are fighting a battle that is lost already

jason

Jason, i dont know TT, and dont know you,
i have no cards that fall into this catogory.
I am however a firm beleiver of put you money were you mouth is
before killing someones rep by circumstantial evidence,
when TT is only so far proven to be selling these, mot making.

 

[ace]

Jason, i dont know TT, and dont know you,
i have no cards that fall into this catogory.
I am however a firm beleiver of put you money were you mouth is
before killing someones rep by circumstantial evidence,
when TT is only so far proven to be selling these, mot making.

Thats fine then but i do not have time to wast on someone having a bit of fun being devil's advocate

no one is paying me or the other people on here that are trying to help , we get nothing for all the time we have spent on here helping to put the peaces together, i would prefer to have had a restful holiday before my work starts up again and i could have done without having to defend myself when i have done nothing other then be the whistle blower.

So if this dose not effect you and you are not looking to help resolve this so others do not suffer more as this thing unfolds or explodes the entire hobby then i hope you do not mind if i stop wasting my time on this Q&A with you, anyone can ague for the sake of it but it is wasting my time.

I have better things to do than to explain something that will be proven anyway in time, so save your words and give the members on here the time they need and you will see the truth come out.

maybe you can find Toni and spend your time cross examining the real person that should be on here being questioned by yourself and everyone else that wants answers.

have good night

j

 

[M4K3R1]

Thats cool, wasnt asking you to defend yourself,
i think that is clear in my posts,
as for you helping in the dabate,
all you were is the whistle blower after 20/30 years of knowing this.
As for you adding to the dabate, what did you add?
Everything was found out and peiced together by others.

Enjoy your holidays.

 

[Grant_C]

Its nice seeing all the new arrivals.

I think its important to make two quick points.

01: The MOCs we saw from JJ on the weekend where from somewhere between 1988-1991. They are original parts, and some of the backing cards had print defects.

02: I have spoken to Steve at UKG many times since this started. I think its obvious to see that they are stuck in a tight spot, but I can guarantee that they are keeping up to date and are busy chasing down their leads and looking for options. I am sure when they find something out it that will be of interest to the community it will end up on this thread some how.

 

[ace]

Its nice seeing all the new arrivals.

I think its important to make two quick points.

01: The MOCs we saw from JJ on the weekend where from somewhere between 1988-1991. They are original parts, and some of the backing cards had print defects.

02: I have spoken to Steve at UKG many times since this started. I think its obvious to see that they are stuck in a tight spot, but I can guarantee that they are keeping up to date and are busy chasing down their leads and looking for options. I am sure when they find something out it that will be of interest to the community it will end up on this thread some how.

good job thanks for the update and its nice to have some sanity thanks mate j

 

[Grant_C]

Also Rob seems to think that some being deemed as forged bv Toni,could well be legit.Trust me,he would know as loads have passed his hands.He also has very good info about Toni and 'U' grades.

Lets just try to put the 'U' grading digs and comments to one side,and see what Robbie has to say.I can assure you that you will be happy you did.Robbie knows a lot about this situation and has been thinking about it a lot,so instead of harsh,uncalled for comments let talk some sense,and get a bit more information on our sides.

Lee

What? What you looking at? :lol:

Robbie- im sure as a business that you don't want strangers going through you paperwork, but if you could give some concrete information to one of the MODs on here, I think it would be great to correlate which figures a bought in quantities.

I think it maybe possible, to narrow down these backing cards to just a few MOCs.

 

[M4K3R1]

Here's some sanity for you Jason,
This photo was posted by someone else many pages back,
you quicklly admitted to it being one of yours, which you had stacked in your roof at home,
the card has without question the home iron marks on the card, which can also be seen a few pages back when the OP of this photo added a few more close ups of the card,
and the two triangular melt marks in the 2 top corners of the bubble.
It is an obvious home iron sealled attempt.
You say you got it from the supplier that way.
You were in possession of the same cards being questioned.
I really hope someone else sees what im trying to get at here.

 

[Grant_C]

THEY ARE MARKED!!!!

Lee was right! All my Palitoy MOCs that came from Toytoni in 1996 all have the same red dot next to Chewbacca. Can everyone check theres to see it.

 

[Chico]

M4K3R1 - I see exactly where you're coming from and have tried to highlight this myself since the dodgy cards presented at FF4 we're added to this thread.

It does feel like this thread is being railroaded into going after Toni as an individual. Our spotlight should be wider than that.

 

[M4K3R1]

M4K3R1 - I see exactly where you're coming from and have tried to highlight this myself since the dodgy cards presented at FF4 we're added to this thread.

It does feel like this thread is being railroaded into going after Toni as an individual. Our spotlight should be wider than that.

Thank mate,
thought i was the only one seeing this.

 

[Chico]

Maulstet79 - just checked my three cards ( all German Esb GM) and none of them have the red dot. Leia bespin was bought direct from Toni last summer and Han Hoth & Bespin we're bought graded off ebay but I believe they originally came from Toni.

 

[Grant_C]

My Doubted MOCs.

ESB TFP: Bought via Delboy Via Toni
ROTJ: Luke Bespin bought Toni Nov 1996 (red Dot)
ROTJ: Storm bought Toni Nov 1996 (red Dot)
ROTJ: Boba Fett bought Toni Nov 1996 (red Dot)
ROTJ: Luke PBP- ebay 2012- no red dot.
ROTJ Hoth Stormtrooper- well I have some shocking news for that later.

Luke Bespin:

Hoth Storm:

Fett:

 

[Grant_C]

Maulstet79 - just checked my three cards ( all German Esb GM) and none of them have the red dot. Leia bespin was bought direct from Toni last summer and Han Hoth & Bespin we're bought graded off ebay but I believe they originally came from Toni.

Theses are Palitoys.

Theres more- give me a second......

 

[Grant_C]

EDIT:

Balls.

Shop stock also have red dots.

Dam.

 

[Grant_C]

and then theres the Hoth Trooper.

I got this in 1995.

No red dot.

Has Iron marks on bubble and scuffs.

Jason- I got this from you. :roll:

 

[Grant_C]

Edit- Dam, dam, dam.

I have found the anomalies on Toni cards on shop sold cards as well.

 

[Chico]

The suspense ......

 

[Richard_H]

You're right the question needs asked but sometimes you have to accept what is being said. When the cards were brought out at FFIV nobody said look at the iron mark for quite a while. It was inspected by several people and after a good period of time discussing it someone (possibly Lee or Chris) said it was an iron mark. We were dumbfounded it was so obvious. So if these cards are out there, and assuming people look at their cards, why has no-one reported ironed cards if it was so obvious?

Because it isn't obvious!

 

[Mr-shifter]

I have looked at my two known "Dirty Tonis" that were brought this year.

The Palitoy ROTJ C3PO has the exact same pink ghosting around the logo and pink dot. It might also be worth noting that that card does not have the "offer expires on *date*" text crossed out with pen on the back. This was thought to be a bit unusual on Sunday as most of the others had the expiry date for the offer crossed out with pen before leaving the factory.

The Paltioy ROTJ Hoth trooper has neither. The printing on the front of the card is fine. There are no iron marks and the date for the mail away on the back is crossed out with black pen. This is the one I showed you on Sunday with all the **** under the bubble.

Keep working guys, and don't forget whats important here. Most of the work here is being done by the collectors for the collectors. We all want to get to the bottom of this and I'm sure with the great work thats going on we will have some definitive answers soon.

 

[chrisfnx]

My palitoy fett has the red dot on the back next to Chewbacca

 

[Grant_C]

Ok- the toni Fett, Luke Bespin and Stormtrooper don't have dates on the back for the Nein Numb Offer.

As in nothing.

No date,
No blacked out date.

Nothing.

 

[Lafos]

Wolfgang, do you have a GM 45 back (MOC or cardback) in possession with the english text on the back, that has a (german) PRICESTICKER affixed ?