Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Lafos]

Sooner or later someone is going to innocently try and sell (or buy) one of the affected cards on this forum and it would be extremely useful to have a concise overview of the issue to direct them to rather than ask them to follow this monster thread.

The first collectors currently tryin´ to get rid off their german MOCs via eBay. And I bet, they will be sold for a good $$$ as not all potential buyers are aware of the current discussion.

 

[plantman]

Once all of the evidence is collated and a final community decision is made we will have a separate thread with all relevant information.

I myself think you are all doing a great job here, with the investigative part, and to be honest apart from some banter we are handling this well.

if/when decided true this will cause a tidal wave across the collecting community, not just us on the forums but the other collectors out there who might find out their investments are faked.

Andy

 

[mr_palitoy]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but if Toni's seals passed AFA/UKG scrutiny then doesn't it mean that other reseals may also have been undetected? I mean all they would need is an original card, bubble, figure and then use a similar heat resealing method to Toni.

Sorry if this has been discussed already.

Before this 'reseal' meant taking an opened card and resealing it to its original bubble, or maybe a replacement bubble, an easy to spot operation for the layman, let alone the graders.

Now its a little bit different as the cardbacks and bubbles are previously unused, making detection more difficult when done correctly. I would guess you are right though, if the ingredients have been available, others may have pulled the same trick.

I think the term 'reseal' can confuse the issue, these had never been sealed in the first place.

Yep very good point. They must be much harder to detect. I think I need to stop using 'reseal' when it comes to Toni's MOCs.

The new term for Tonis MOCs is MTO. Made to Order.



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

A quick suggestion... as this thread shows no sign of slowing down. Would it make sense to start a new thread to act as a resource as a lot of good content is going to get lost in amongst all the sleuthing

I was thinking it would be useful for this thread to contain:
1) A short overview of the situation
2) The cardbacks we believe are affected (GM, Palitoy, 45 bks onwards etc)
3) Bubble types / issues
4) Seal issues to look for (pressure 'wave' being applied, smudged glue etc)
5) Other signs such as the pink dot etc.

Sooner or later someone is going to innocently try and sell (or buy) one of the affected cards on this forum and it would be extremely useful to have a concise overview of the issue to direct them to rather than ask them to follow this monster thread. I'm happy to contribute pictures of my own Toni MOC's but i think this should be put together by someone (or preferably a group) far more qualified than me. (e.g. I don't know the difference between a 45 and 45b bk!)

It might also help us piece together just how far this rabbit hole goes!

Going back to the dodgy seals brought to FF. The more i think about it the less i believe that these came from Toni, and if they did certainly don't believe they were sold as original. His fault is that his cards are almost too perfect, it just isn't his style and more importantly the SW collecting community is very tight, word spreads fast and mud sticks. There is no way he would have been able to build a reputation or pull of a 'giant warehouse find' if collectors thought his stuff was remotely dodgy.

I think a web guide showing some example Tonis and possible ways of telling if you have one would be a great resource. Just a bit early to be producing that now
as new facts and detections are being discovered every day.

Also, once we know the affected card/character combos, the figure matrix guides should be updated to mention them,. i.e my palitoy site, wolgangs GM one and Joe's trilogo site



cheers Jason

 

[**Delboy75**]

This pink dot thing on the card backs. Could it not be a simple case that some went to production, QA picked up on the flaw and pulled the lot, both carded and loose cards would then exist.

What's to say Joiner and this Arthur fella didn't sell these fakes to Toni without him knowing they were home sealed.

Joiner had the fetts, fact. I would take James's word over JJ any day of the week.
Joiner had the hoth troopers with poorly applied, even upside down bubbles.
Attempts to master bubble sealing?
Joiner turns up at a show with obvious fakes claiming They came from Toni, but failed to previously mention them.


However,
I'm swaying towards Toni being involved in some way, too many things don't add up.

Maybe Arthur and joiner got Toni involved too, Arthur and Toni both realise they can cut Joiner out of the deal so go it alone resealing mocs in the unit they were renting.
Joiner is pissed off to the max, but Arthur is not a man he wants to cross to sulks off and spends the next few years churning out fake protos,baggies, gold painted figure and props etc etc.

All these years later he finds out Arthur has died and seeks revenge.
Googling he finds this forum is linked heavily to people buying Toni's stock and joins then casually drops the bombshell.

I find it very odd joiner makes a point right away of not knowing what U grades are, and then it turns out Toni is buying U grade figures to 'Possibly' reseal. Did Joiner know this already and wanted to distance himself from this.
Have they been in it together all long but Toni has recently pissed him off?

Yes I know this is all a bit scooby Doo but I bet it turns out something along these lines.

 

[bobbybobs]

How hard/expensive is it in Britain to request a death certificate?

Might be worth confirming whether or not this Arthur character actually did die.

 

[Grant_C]

Googling he finds this forum is linked heavily to people buying Toni's stock and joins then casually drops the bombshell.

I invited him after discussing issues offline. I asked him to come on to discuss other issues that are of interest for star wars fans.

Hothrebel brought up Toni on bottom of Page 12.

Didn't Toni from toy Toni get the German figures? He had a hell of a lot in the early 90s

 

[Chico]

We're on the same page Delboy.

If all this turns out to be true I don't think it's been happening for 20 years without some other big players knowing about it too, and if so why keep quiet? Why its coming out now we might never know.

 

[mr_palitoy]

This pink dot thing on the card backs. Could it not be a simple case that some went to production, QA picked up on the flaw and pulled the lot, both carded and loose cards would then exist.

What's to say Joiner and this Arthur fella didn't sell these fakes to Toni without him knowing they were home sealed.

Joiner had the fetts, fact. I would take James's word over JJ any day of the week.
Joiner had the hoth troopers with poorly applied, even upside down bubbles.
Attempts to master bubble sealing?
Joiner turns up at a show with obvious fakes claiming They came from Toni, but failed to previously mention them.


However,
I'm swaying towards Toni being involved in some way, too many things don't add up.

Maybe Arthur and joiner got Toni involved too, Arthur and Toni both realise they can cut Joiner out of the deal so go it alone resealing mocs in the unit they were renting.
Joiner is pissed off to the max, but Arthur is not a man he wants to cross to sulks off and spends the next few years churning out fake protos,baggies, gold painted figure and props etc etc.

All these years later he finds out Arthur has died and seeks revenge.
Googling he finds this forum is linked heavily to people buying Toni's stock and joins then casually drops the bombshell.

I find it very odd joiner makes a point right away of not knowing what U grades are, and then it turns out Toni is buying U grade figures to 'Possibly' reseal. Did Joiner know this already and wanted to distance himself from this.
Have they been in it together all long but Toni has recently pissed him off?

Yes I know this is all a bit scooby Doo but I bet it turns out something along these lines.

Go back and read the start of this thread. JJ is asked about Tonis abundance of MOCs, he doesn't just casually drop it into the conversation.

Jason

 

[jedisearcher]

This pink dot thing on the card backs. Could it not be a simple case that some went to production, QA picked up on the flaw and pulled the lot, both carded and loose cards would then exist.

What's to say Joiner and this Arthur fella didn't sell these fakes to Toni without him knowing they were home sealed.

Joiner had the fetts, fact. I would take James's word over JJ any day of the week.
Joiner had the hoth troopers with poorly applied, even upside down bubbles.
Attempts to master bubble sealing?
Joiner turns up at a show with obvious fakes claiming They came from Toni, but failed to previously mention them.


However,
I'm swaying towards Toni being involved in some way, too many things don't add up.

Maybe Arthur and joiner got Toni involved too, Arthur and Toni both realise they can cut Joiner out of the deal so go it alone resealing mocs in the unit they were renting.
Joiner is pissed off to the max, but Arthur is not a man he wants to cross to sulks off and spends the next few years churning out fake protos,baggies, gold painted figure and props etc etc.

All these years later he finds out Arthur has died and seeks revenge.
Googling he finds this forum is linked heavily to people buying Toni's stock and joins then casually drops the bombshell.

I find it very odd joiner makes a point right away of not knowing what U grades are, and then it turns out Toni is buying U grade figures to 'Possibly' reseal. Did Joiner know this already and wanted to distance himself from this.
Have they been in it together all long but Toni has recently pissed him off?

Yes I know this is all a bit scooby Doo but I bet it turns out something along these lines.

I said something very similar earlier in the thread. Toni could easily have bought these, already made up, 20 years ago in good faith.

However, this doesn't explain the 2nd ebay account, nor his silence. That's damning him now.

Had he turned up on a bout page 20 and said he'd bought them from JJ in 1990 then this thread would have gone on a very different path. His silence has let people go rooting for more evidence which has now been revealed and makes him look guilty as sin.

 

[mr_palitoy]

How hard/expensive is it in Britain to request a death certificate?

Might be worth confirming whether or not this Arthur character actually did die.

JJ also confirmed Arthur died.

Jason

 

[itfciain]

Having met Jason yesterday for the first time, I can say he came across as a nice chap and someone that clearly has a passion for the hobby. He has some amazing items (there are some pictures up on facebook) which he bought along to the event - he was happy to show these, sit down an talk with all of us and generally added to what was already a great day (thanks Dave T)

I appreciate that in the past his reputation has taken a battering and I am sure that he has done things that he is not proud of. However, he fronted up yesterday - came along to an event and was willing to answer questions. The same can not be said of Toni - and at the end of the day, if my business and my reputation was heading down the toilet then I would be a lot more vocal.

I am not sure what Jason is suspected of gaining from all of this but I know what Toni is losing - and the evidence is mounting on a daily basis !

 

[bobbybobs]

How hard/expensive is it in Britain to request a death certificate?

Might be worth confirming whether or not this Arthur character actually did die.

JJ also confirmed Arthur died.

Jason

Ok thanks Jason

 

[Richard_H]

I will say one thing-at least Jason Joiner had the bollocks to front up to people about this,which is a lot more than someone else has done :evil:

Fairpay to him for that.

Such a sad time for collecting.I know a few friends have been affected by this,and they are not happy as you an guess.I dont think we need anymore proof-he has destroyed a huge part of this hobby with his actions.

Good statement. I meant many hours with Jason on Sunday and I for one have been 100% convinced by him. I've love to see him stick around here and I hope that he does not get driven away. His stories (some are jaw dropping) are amazing and I hope will one day see the light of day.

For those complaining about 'rambling' posts Jason is exactly like that when he's talking. 1 long speech after another - and he's very fluent. He does have written communication issues so can we please not make a big deal about spellings and poor structure - it's the way he is.

 

[edd_jedi]

One thing that's 100% confirmed now is that there were a stack of unused cardbacks and bubbles. Who they have been assembled by and when is still open to debate, but that is a fact now based on the photos of dodgy MOCs shown at FF4. So whether we find a scapegoat or not, all of these MOCs are now potentially fakes. As Jason said, the best we can do is try and figure out ways of identifying genuine ones (price stickers, card defects, seals, COOs etc.)

Sorry to say but this is what I first said 50 odd pages ago. All you need is the original 'ingredients' (figures, bubbles and cards) and all of this is entirely plausible.

 

[spoons]

I've finally uploaded some of the pictures of my Chewies that came from after 45B.

http://www.chivecast.com

(I'm not trying to promote the podcast, but that was the easiest place for me to upload the images quickly...though you really should listen to the podcast )

I can't really draw any conclusions from these things but I figure that some hi-res images might be useful for people to consider. Feel free to goof around with the images or repost them or whatever if you see anything.

A quick suggestion... as this thread shows no sign of slowing down. Would it make sense to start a new thread to act as a resource as a lot of good content is going to get lost in amongst all the sleuthing

Speaking of posts getting lost in the thread - it appears we'd missed this one.

Thanks for the post Skye, and nice to see you posting this side of the pond

 

[Richard_H]

Just a theory, but this could be THE most calculated revenge scenario in history. What if Toni beat JJ to the MOCs and he's never forgiven him?

:shock: :?

No way. I've listened to JJ over the weekend. He has lost out on many deals and many that were much bigger than this. It's part of his business.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Like I previously said I do now believe Toni has something to hide, unfortunately there are just too many things adding up.

Guilty or not I cannot believe the amount of joiner love there is on this forum.

Anyway I know I said it before that's it I'm just going to sit back and read it all unfold.
In the meantime I'm going to email Billyboy and tell him that he will be welcome back on the forums with open arms in the next 10 years or so :roll:

 

[Richard_H]

I think if there needs to be a discussion about JJ's rep then it should go in a new thread. You should then share your stories about how you've been affected personally by him (i.e. not heresay) and I'm sure he'd be happy to respond. Many of us and have many times in this thread to give us something to look at but all we've been given is google searches...

 

[x-pack]

These are a few I took at Fordingbridge. The others on the previous page are better.

Grant got me to take these. The first one is obviously a loose bubble from one of these cards. The others two are dodgy melted seals.

Barry, thanks for the photo's

Were these the ones JJ brought along ? and were they all Double Stem MOC's with the dodgy seals?

Hi buddy. To be honest i'm not 100% sure who brought these. Grant will tell you. I think they are JJ's.

This thread moves so damn fast by the time you've written a reply someone else has posted!