Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Chico]

As one of the many on here who own Toy Toni MOC, i've been following this keenly over the last few days. I have 3 in my collection, all Mint German ESB GM. One was bought directly from Toni whilst the other two were UKG graded and bought through ebay, but almost certainly originally from Toni.

First i wanted to say that my single experience of dealing with Toni was good. After the order was made correspondence was slow but the item did arrive within an acceptable time frame, and was well packaged.

I would also like to say that i don't particularly care for JJ's approach, long ramblings or lack of evidence. To me it does feel like he his happy to jump on any 'crumb' of evidence forwarded by other collectors following his posts that happen to give any kind of weight to his claims.

But...

These 'crumbs' are adding up and they are being put forward on here by many of the most respectable SWFUK members. The list of inconsistencies doesn't look good but without trying to appear naive, none of the points raised are beyond explanation. But an explanation is what is needed and given the amount of money that members on here have put into his business, I would add to the calls for Toni to come on here and clear some of this up.

As others have commented, the rampant speculation on here is helping no one, and snippets of facts are being connected by fiction. I didn't question my original transaction with Toni but following all of this, it is all too easy to look back and start to speculate the delay in posting may be due to the MOC being made to order. And that is the trouble it's speculation at the moment without solid evidence. It might never be possible to clear this up.

Personally speaking, I love this hobby but idiots like Mark Poon, and this sudden uncertainty with MOCs might just be the end of my involvement (with carded figures at least). If this does prove to be the worst case scenario, and grading companies and some of the foremost collectors in the business have been fooled, what chance do the rest of us have?

 

[lee gray]

On the back of the fett cards, there are alot of heavier indents for the H style bubble on the back to the point you can feel it so alot of pressure must have been applied to them.

 

[Richard_H]

Toni update. I have emailed him twice in the last 24 hours asking for his response to the 2nd ebay account and him selling unused Palitoy cards in the rebelscum thread.
I got a reply this morning asking for details of where those posts where made in this thread, which I have passed on to him.

cheers Jason

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni update. I have emailed him twice in the last 24 hours asking for his response to the 2nd ebay account and him selling unused Palitoy cards in the rebelscum thread.
I got a reply this morning asking for details of where those posts where made in this thread, which I have passed on to him.

cheers Jason

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

I havent seen him browsing this thread today. He may be doing it as guest though after JJ outed him the last time.



Jason

 

[jambobbyb]

Holy **** just spent the entire day reading this one, what a headfuck! Got to feel for the owners of any of these MOC's!

 

[Fishtalk]

So it's looking increasingly likely that Toy Toni has been running his own private Palitoy factory since the early nineties. If true then it's mass fraud over 20 years, involving many people and a LOT of money. There are consumer rights groups who specialise in this kind of thing, Watchdog for example. They will happily come to the aid of old ladies who have been ripped off £600 by dodgy plumbers, e.t.c, why not this? The potential amount of money involved could be staggering.
But, as everyone else is saying I fail to see how anything can be proved, and this could run another 50 pages with no sign of a resolution.

 

[edd_jedi]

Is he saying that he hasn't followed the thread!

No disrespect to Toni but I'm sure most will agree communication has never been his strong point. I've always had to wait days for answers to one line questions, and usually received one line answers in return. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if he hasn't read this biblical thread!

 

[edd_jedi]

Expanding on that, I'm sure people that have dealt with him for a long time will remember that he wouldn't take paypal payments until very recently, it was always cheques. I often thought that his slow responses and awkward payment methods must hinder his sales and that he'd sell far more stuff if he put in a bit more effort. But as with many suggestions in this thread, although just speculation his behaviour would explain a lot now.

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Or perhaps as an hidden member :wink:

 

[lee gray]

Saying that though I remember Jim stevenson would only take cheques for years and years too, not even credit card

I do feel bad for the owners though, just incase as no matter what the outcome there will always be doubt now.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

 

[**Delboy75**]

Well the way I see it is if Toni had these cardbacks he would be selling them as such today, as in most cases they would be worth more than the carded figure.
When I mentioned this before it was pointed out it would look odd if he suddenly started selling them now, but it has come to light that he has sold unused GM cardbacks in the past so no reason not to sell them now unless he genuinely only had those few?

Joiner quickly brushes the 'fake' fetts under the carpet and blames James for miss hearing him, now I know which one I would believe.

Maybe it was Joiner (and possibly Arthur) sealing them, as he states they were friends and Arthur was someone to look up to. They sold them onto Toni who may or may not of known? Hell maybe even the 3 of them were in it together. These were sold in the 90's when joiner was 'apparently' :wink: passing off many fakes (grey troopers/yak baggies,gold hat BBG,gold top r2)

Those hoth troopers with crappy bubbles look like (bad) attemps to master bubble sealing to me.
They are piss poor and any paid factory worker churning them out in that quantity wants shooting, add to that the palitoy fetts he was selling and I cant see how he keeps being overlooked in all of this.

Joiner is saying there were 25'000 items, be it carded or uncarded and he only ended up with 500 items mostly hoth troopers? Why would he buy so many hoth troopers?

Again all speculation, but as is 99% of this thread.

Something dodgy is going on its just knowing who to trust.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

 

[escapist]

Well the way I see it is if Toni had these cardbacks he would be selling them as such today, as in most cases they would be worth more than the carded figure.
When I mentioned this before it was pointed out it would look odd if he suddenly started selling them now, but it has come to light that he has sold unused GM cardbacks in the past so no reason not to sell them now unless he genuinely only had those few?

His ebay feedback confirms three recent auctions on cardbacks from Feb 2013. The listing aren't up though so no idea whether they were used:

RARE CLIPPER ESB BESPIN GUARD AND IMPERIAL STORMTROOPER CARDBACKS (#251224110007)
RARE CLIPPER ESB BESPIN GUARD AND IMPERIAL STORMTROOPER CARDBACKS (#251225362036)
GERMAN GENERAL MILLS ESB DENGAR LEIA 4LOM C3PO CARDBACKS (#251224109995)

But yeah. I don't know what to think anymore.

 

[jimbody1]

I think I saw these while I was looking for cardbacks for a thread and they was used.

 

[Caswellbot]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

I heard differently del from another very reliable source.

 

[escapist]

Well unfortunately, at this stage I think we have reached an impasse. Jason says one thing, Toni says the opposite and Arthur is no longer with us.

I don't think the truth will ever really come out. The list may evidence if any of the cards match up to the cards we know have been sold by Toni. But again it wouldn't prove anything.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I heard from a VERY reliable source (who unfortunately wants no part of this thread), pretty much what Toni said, that the list contained unused cardbacks but they never materialised.

I heard differently del from another very reliable source.

Thing is Chris i'm pretty sure its the same source.....just to confuse things even more :lol:

 

[Captainsolo1978]

Has Toni got photos of the Palitoy cases the figures he states hq bought from Arthur were in.

Seems without a good response no one will be buying these German Esb figures again.

 

[_Lee_]

So now we have a statement from Toni saying that he never had an unused cardbacks and a collector on RS claiming he bought 5 from him at a show in Atlantique City? Well something isn't right there, that's for sure.

That's not just a collector. That's Andy Loney from The Toy Cave. Andy has been a dealer for years and has a stellar rep. I even recall him selling some of these as far back as either C2 or C3. I almost bought one and remember asking him to try to get me a Biker Scout. We used to go to AC to the toy show twice a year. I have no doubt what he says is true, especially since he made the comment a few years ago.

John

Yup John,and that same unused Lando skiff AFA backer in my old focus (the one pictured in this thread)came from him.IIRC,he sold the last ones he kept (all AFA,d)from his purchase from TT.Im sure you will remember my limelight John as it somehow turned into a pathetic,racist load of rubbish-french toast etc???

 

[mr_palitoy]

I think I saw these while I was looking for cardbacks for a thread and they was used.

Looking through my email I can see I have bought used cardbacks from Toni via his marsking ebay account previously as well.

Jason

 

[Joseph_Y]

Has Toni got photos of the Palitoy cases the figures he states hq bought from Arthur were in.

Seems without a good response no one will be buying these German Esb figures again.

Seems like some ******* on TIG is willing to take a chance on them..... :lol:

http://www.imperialgunneryforum.com/t6570-wtb-any-and-all-palitoy-esb-rotj-and-german-45bksworried-about-them-being-realdump-them-to-me

 

[ace]

i just wanted to say that i think it would be good to meet some of you at this weekend event , a few of you have asked if i would go down to the meet and it did interest me to meet some of you , i have been kindly been offered a ride by "Cc4rhu" Richard which is very nice of him as we do not know each other really.

i have been asked by Jason to bring the Palitoy Jawa along also as he wants to see my one in the flesh , and i plan to bring that down if people want to take a look at it ?

i will try to dig out somethings that some of you may not have seen before ? the thing is now with the internet and web sits i bought i have much you have not seen .

Dave is there anything i need to do before hand ? is there a entry fee etc or anything you need form me ? or can it all be done on the day ?

i am coming down to meet others and to maybe look at some cool things ?

i am happy to talk to people if they want to ask me about something they feel is helpful or useful to know about these card issues .

i am bringing a few things down to ask some questions on myself about the figurers from Toni and maybe some of you that know more than me can help me put the last few things i do not understand together ?

i am not going down to spend all day going over and over the same points we have gone over on here all day, but i will try to help with anything you need to ask me.

more than anything i hope to meet some new people and maybe buy something ? and have a good time.

Dave if you or anyone can let me know if i need to bring anything more than myself that would be great, hope there is a pub

hope to see some of you on sunday

jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Has Toni got photos of the Palitoy cases the figures he states hq bought from Arthur were in.

Seems without a good response no one will be buying these German Esb figures again.

JohnPaul from TIG posted on my facebook saying Toni should post a picture of all his unused MOC stock.
If he could post a picture of thousands of MOCs that would dispel the rumour that they were made to order.

I'd go one better, if you have nothing to hide, invite some collectors round for an inspection, UN style.



Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

i just wanted to say that i think it would be good to meet some of you at this weekend event , a few of you have asked if i would go down to the meet and it did interest me to meet some of you , i have been kindly been offered a ride by "Cc4rhu" Richard which is very nice of him as we do not know each other really.

i have been asked by Jason to bring the Palitoy Jawa along also as he wants to see my one in the flesh , and i plan to bring that down if people want to take a look at it ?

i will try to dig out somethings that some of you may not have seen before ? the thing is now with the internet and web sits i bought i have much you have not seen .

Dave is there anything i need to do before hand ? is there a entry fee etc or anything you need form me ? or can it all be done on the day ?

i am coming down to meet others and to maybe look at some cool things ?

i am happy to talk to people if they want to ask me about something they feel is helpful or useful to know about these card issues .

i am bringing a few things down to ask some questions on myself about the figurers from Toni and maybe some of you that know more than me can help me put the last few things i do not understand together ?

i am not going down to spend all day going over and over the same points we have gone over on here all day, but i will try to help with anything you need to ask me.

more than anything i hope to meet some new people and maybe buy something ? and have a good time.

Dave if you or anyone can let me know if i need to bring anything more than myself that would be great, hope there is a pub

hope to see some of you on sunday

jason

Entrance fee is £1, so get saving.



Jason

 

[tiefighterboy]

Got an email reply from Toni:-

"hi yes that sounds about right- despite there being several lists with large numbers of loose cards as far as I know only a handful actually turned up-they came my way and were bought by an American guy as in his post I don't remember which figures they were .Probably best to mention that Arthur Bailey died about 5-6 ago .Toni"

So:-

1) He's acknowledging that he sold the unused cards but he did not get them from Arthur
2) He says Arthur is no longer with us to answer questions, I presume Toni missed out years in 5-6 ago.

Jason

I thought Toni said in a prior post that they never "Materialized" It looks like he is now saying they did and he did buy them....and sold them to some american guy. :?

 

[mr_palitoy]

I thought Toni said in a prior post that they never "Materialized" It looks like he is now saying they did and he did not buy them....some american guy did. :?

Toni is a man of few words. What he said in his email is that "they came my way". ie he had them (possibly via Arthur, he doesnt say) and he sold them on to "an American guy" (this is Andy from rebelscum). So the stories match.

Jason

 

[olisuds]

Anyone care to name the 10 most common figures found on Toni's MOCs?

 

[jedisearcher]

Has Toni got photos of the Palitoy cases the figures he states hq bought from Arthur were in.

Seems without a good response no one will be buying these German Esb figures again.

JohnPaul from TIG posted on my facebook saying Toni should post a picture of all his unused MOC stock.
If he could post a picture of thousands of MOCs that would dispel the rumour that they were made to order.

I'd go one better, if you have nothing to hide, invite some collectors round for an inspection, UN style.



Jason

That's the problem though isn't it. Toni isn't saying anything so getting him to post a picture or invite people round is farther away than the moon at this point.

I'm actually truly stunned how calm everyone seems to be. I've seen people threatening to rip each others faces off and turn up at peoples houses and beat the dirt out of each other for alot less in some of the watch out threads. Yet this guy has taken tens of thousands of pounds and so many people seem to be saying "well, we'll never know" ... "we just won't buy them any more" etc.

I get that we don't know either way but the way he's saying **** all is making him look like a **** and much worse than some of those others. The money people have spent and yet he's not even had the decency to make a simple statement like "Yes, I bought these as a factory sealed job lot 10 years ago". I've been the first to say this might not be something he's done himself, that he might have bought them carded up from someone else, but he really needs to put that information out in the open.

To me, some kind of positive affirmation of what he's selling is the very least he could do and should do. Silence can only bring him problems. I've mailed him asking about the authenticity of the cards I've bought. I'll post the response I don't get ...

More silence from him and the next stop is trading standards and citizens advice.

More silence and it's the tax man. I'm very sure sure he won't be wanting to see those guys coming round to pay him a visit. Those guys don't give up and thinking about them crawling all over his affairs for the last 6 years will be well worth the few hundred quid I've spent with him.

Happy Christmas :lol:

 

[jedisearcher]

Sorry, I only came on to answer the other question - Toni has no packing cases. Think someone (Edd?) said it in an earlier thread.

Surprise, surprise :roll: