Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[olisuds]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

 

[olisuds]

Jason.

That was a group shot of my old Lando Skiff focus.The Palitoy card was unpunched,but the punch was present..There was a punch on all the Palitoy unused backers floating around.I never saw any unpunched example.

Lee

That's an awesome looking Lando skiff run!

So are you guys thinking that the effected cards that Toni is accused of sealing are likely to be unpunched since the unused card stock also appears to be unpunched?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

I fear you may be right!

Hopefully Jason can prove me wrong tho

 

[spoons]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

my thoughts exactly - I doubt if the truth will ever come out

As others point out Toni doesn't sell these as factory sealed so there is no point taking him to court (if he is faking them), and how does anyone prove that a card sold through modelmart is the one they own today?

 

[jedi_masters]

I have a feeling this list will never turn up.

Anyone want a bet?

To be honest I have though this from the start. Funny how since he has made these claims he hasn't been able to did the list. I am always happy to be proved wrong.

 

[edd_jedi]

I don't think the list is that important to be honest, it's clear as day from the RS quotes and the photos of various graded unused cardbacks that these unused cardbacks did exist and at least some came from Toni, so that part of the puzzle is solved. All that needs answering is whether unused bubbles exist (which the list may help with) but more importantly an admission from Toni (or anybody else that has been involved, eg somebody mentioned a few pages back that JJ had Boba Fett's he knew were fakes) that some of his stock is fake. The list won't prove that.

 

[Dublinjeff]

If I was affected by this my fear would be that as lads have said, no list/evidence will ever be produced. It's quite likely that JJ was aware that something 'may' have gone on and was slinging the mud knowing some would stick.

Toni on the other hand, although very conspicuous by his lack of contribution, maybe sitting back seeing how this plays out. Is proof provided. If not, "well see there you go guys, just JJ doing what he does etc..." and suspicious as it all may be, there might never be a definitive conclusion.

If something does appear...oh....mmmmhh..."ok, see there was some cards and bubbles"...

 

[wrighty]

May I ask, how all these came to light in the 1st place after so many years?

 

[escapist]

May I ask, how all these came to light in the 1st place after so many years?

It was kind of a throwaway comment that got latched onto on about page 10 of this thread.

Jason Joiner ('ace') was posting that he could tell us some stories he knew of from his years of collecting and mentioned 25,000 cardbacks that were purchased from the Palitoy factory when it closed. Its sort of blossomed from there.

 

[Anonymous]

I believe finding this list should be be of the utmost importance to you at this moment Jason, in fact it would have been much more preferable that you had it in your possession before even raising this at all. If you had we could have avoided most of the speculation all together.

I can only begin to imagine what stress and anxiety this has caused owners of these cards especially those that own quite a few of them, you owe it to them now to prove one way or the other that what you say is true as quickly as possible!

What list mate?

 

[escapist]

I mentioned this to my mate at work today, who also collects. He said he purchased a Palitoy ROTJ Hoth Stormtrooper for £27 from an advert in Model Mart in 1997 and said that the bubble has yellowed since then. He said he would take some pics for me later.

 

[plantman]

but the whole story gets pieced together as other collectors have indicated this happened, when you piece together the clues without writing an essay it doesnt look good

this WILL affect Toni and his credibility if he doesnt defend himself, he has a lot to lose by not coming forward and clearing this issue.

1. He was in partnership with Arthur in his company for years
2. He bought bulk loads of fresh cardbacks (this has been mentioned by other collectors)
3. He seems to produce these at will rather than running out they re-appear
4. He has sold minty carbacks previously
5. He is buying U graded minty figure with a second ebay account
6. discrepancy around wrong figures being carded
7. He seems to be the ONLY source of these figures


and i could go on, this needs to be cleared up, because if it does turn out he is carding them or they were sealed later then he will be getting more than a few knocks on his door for money back i can tell you!

 

[Caswellbot]

Guys I really don't see the point in getting hung up on the list. it would hold very little bearing and carry less weight than some of the observations already posted on here. I could go away and put together a list and make out it was written 20 years ago. It doesn't prove much if anything. It's the circumstances involved that should worry people. Toni did not mention he had unused card backs when he could have . Later it turns out he sold a load at a fair in AC. That combined with the 2nd ebay account buying up mint loose, observations of old school dealers of Toni buying up mint loose of specific figures, combined with Tonis silence....

 

[BlueDog]

Very True Chris, I also agree with Jeff. At this point I'm inclined to believe that Jason pretty much put this info out hoping that circumstantial evidence will take care of the rest and it appears to be doing just that.

Just annoys me that so many people will be stressing on the legitimacy of goods they've paid good money for and Jason keeps banging on about speculation of which he is the main culprit. Hanging his hat on a list which as you rightly point out will more than likely prove nothing.

 

[spoons]

Guys I really don't see the point in getting hung up on the list. it would hold very little bearing and carry less weight than some of the observations already posted on here. I could go away and put together a list and make out it was written 20 years ago. It doesn't prove much if anything. It's the circumstances involved that should worry people. Toni did not mention he had unused card backs when he could have . Later it turns out he sold a load at a fair in AC. That combined with the 2nd ebay account buying up mint loose, observations of old school dealers of Toni buying up mint loose of specific figures, combined with Tonis silence....

Fair points Chris, but in my view the list would help establish what may be fake and what is likely to be legitimate, rather than act as proof to innocence or guilt

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

 

[edd_jedi]

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

But somebody a few pages back said that JJ himself was selling the Boba Fetts and was over-heard saying he knew they were sealed post-production. Maybe JJ can answer that claim?

 

[ace]

Guys I really don't see the point in getting hung up on the list. it would hold very little bearing and carry less weight than some of the observations already posted on here. I could go away and put together a list and make out it was written 20 years ago. It doesn't prove much if anything. It's the circumstances involved that should worry people. Toni did not mention he had unused card backs when he could have . Later it turns out he sold a load at a fair in AC. That combined with the 2nd ebay account buying up mint loose, observations of old school dealers of Toni buying up mint loose of specific figures, combined with Tonis silence....

Fair points Chris, but in my view the list would help establish what may be fake and what is likely to be legitimate, rather than act as proof to innocence or guilt

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

i going to respond to this

i am looking for the list not to prove Toni's guilt as it will not do that, its just to give the collectors more info on what figures are now in question.

i am not going on about it as if it will solve anything its just a list of cards and figures and bubbles

i am spending a lot of time in a cold warehouse over Christmas looking for the dam thing , i will also say i am just a messenger on this and i am trying to just be helpful nothing more.

someone posted i owe it to collectors to find this list, i owe nothing on this , i am doing this to help collectors as i am one two, but i do not owe anyone as i have not done anything apart from being a whistle blower

so i will keep on looking for the list but its not going to be the definitive conviction for Toni that some of you want or think it will do as it just will not add much to the case.

the facts are here on this thread and more and more people come on here with more info each day .

Jason

 

[edd_jedi]

Jason I agree that the list doesn't solve or after anything, I don't see why everyone is so worried about it personally. The list alone proves nothing.

 

[olisuds]

Jason I agree that the list doesn't solve or after anything, I don't see why everyone is so worried about it personally. The list alone proves nothing.

It makes it clearer which figures are in question.

 

[Lafos]

One last thing....sealing figures to cards can't be that difficult. I have seen some excellent customs over the years

using double sided tape or some other method than heat sealing. I have never seen a heat sealed custom.

Also the video hiighlighted shows the "Tooling" aspect of what I was getting at. Not cheap and not just a simple block of steel.

Edd postet a pic of Poons customs.

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11326&start=705#p259396

 

[BlueDog]

I believe along with such heavy allegations comes a huge responsibility to provide hard evidence and facts JJ.

 

[spoons]

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

But somebody a few pages back said that JJ himself was selling the Boba Fetts and was over-heard saying he knew they were sealed post-production. Maybe JJ can answer that claim?

I know Edd - it was just an example, I might as well have said Chewbacca or a Jawa

The point is if a figure isn't on the list then doubts would lessen over its authenticity

 

[escapist]

Its probably been suggested, but is Arthur Bailey still around and contactable?

It'd be interesting to see if anyone can get him on here, or at least e-mail him.

 

[mr_palitoy]

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

But somebody a few pages back said that JJ himself was selling the Boba Fetts and was over-heard saying he knew they were sealed post-production. Maybe JJ can answer that claim?

I know Edd - it was just an example, I might as well have said Chewbacca or a Jawa

The point is if a figure isn't on the list then doubts would lessen over its authenticity

The list matters for damage limitation. Currently all German MOC and ESB/ROTJ Palitoy are in question.



Jason

 

[ace]

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

But somebody a few pages back said that JJ himself was selling the Boba Fetts and was over-heard saying he knew they were sealed post-production. Maybe JJ can answer that claim?

i did sell Boba Fetts at my sic-fi show at Grundy park show Cheshunt

these were the leftover 46 figures that i had bought from Arthur the 500 i got from him

when Toni started to sell these figures as carded i thought that the market was going to be flooded
so i decided to sell these Boba's rather than keep and invest .

when i sold them i did not think they were re assembled in any way and it had never occurred to me till this theard opened up a lot of new things , i have talked off line with Mr Palitoy on the phone about some worries i cannot prove but wanted him to be aware of early so he understood what i was thinking might be posable, but that for now is between him and i.


what i think Jamie herd me saying was a conversation i was having with my staff member Paul on my trader stand .

i did not say these are re carded that was a misunderstanding or miss hearing from Jamie

The point i think i was making to PAUL and what Jamie over herd me saying was there are figures that are being re carded , not that these are re carded and i am letting these go and not going to keep them, if Jamie had ask me about this at the time more i would have said it to him as i was not hiding the fact that this was happening at the time.



at that time i really did not think these were re carded as they came from Arthur and he gave me a list of what carded and what was not , but now after the new info of Arthur and Toni being in business together , i have other thoughts , but that is one of the points i made before its speculation and i do not want to go into that at this time, i want to here more before i say what i think happened in detail.

so know i did not sell figures i genuinely thought was wrong , i knew that figures were being re carded but i felt all that i had at that time was good stock.

i have never bought figures from Toni ever , even thought i could have made money on them as i felt they was not right and at that time my company reputation was very good and we would not of damaged it for a few quid.

hope that clears that up , but please lets not go off subject here on this post , its important that we get more facts behind this, its coming together, i just wanted to clear this up so we can move on .


hope that helps

jason

 

[Richard_H]

Guys I really don't see the point in getting hung up on the list. it would hold very little bearing and carry less weight than some of the observations already posted on here. I could go away and put together a list and make out it was written 20 years ago. It doesn't prove much if anything. It's the circumstances involved that should worry people. Toni did not mention he had unused card backs when he could have . Later it turns out he sold a load at a fair in AC. That combined with the 2nd ebay account buying up mint loose, observations of old school dealers of Toni buying up mint loose of specific figures, combined with Tonis silence....

Fair points Chris, but in my view the list would help establish what may be fake and what is likely to be legitimate, rather than act as proof to innocence or guilt

I.e. if Boba Fett is not on the list then graded ones could be assumed to be factory sealed.

That is a good point. I wasn't really worried about the list but if it can clear some figures then it's worth it.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Toni update. I have emailed him twice in the last 24 hours asking for his response to the 2nd ebay account and him selling unused Palitoy cards in the rebelscum thread.
I got a reply this morning asking for details of where those posts where made in this thread, which I have passed on to him.

cheers Jason

 

[wbobafett]

Okay now I wasted my time browsing for Pal ESB Bossks...ebay, google and classifieds...so here is what I have found.


First of all I spotted three different blisters on those:
1. Single stem large
2. Single stem small
3. Double stem


ESB Palitoy 45B back
- MIHK (possible related no Coo): 5x (4x large, 1x small single stem)
- Small HK (possible related no Coo): 3x (2x small, 1x large single stem)
- Large HK: 0x
- No Coo Scar (PBP figure): 2x (2x small)

ESB Palitoy 45 GERMAN back:
- MIHK (possible related no Coo): 0x
- Small HK (possible related no Coo): 4x (1x small, 1x big, 2x double stem)
- Large HK: 0x
- No Coo Scar (PBP figure): 3x (3x small single stem)

ROTJ Palitoy 45C back
- MIHK (possible related no Coo) 1x (large blister, no stem)


And now what??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[wbobafett]

And I spotted more of those strange cirlced dots (imprints) on perfect shaped German cards. Any ideas??

 

[Bramistuta25]

but the whole story gets pieced together as other collectors have indicated this happened, when you piece together the clues without writing an essay it doesnt look good

this WILL affect Toni and his credibility if he doesnt defend himself, he has a lot to lose by not coming forward and clearing this issue.

1. He was in partnership with Arthur in his company for years
2. He bought bulk loads of fresh cardbacks (this has been mentioned by other collectors)
3. He seems to produce these at will rather than running out they re-appear
4. He has sold minty carbacks previously
5. He is buying U graded minty figure with a second ebay account
6. discrepancy around wrong figures being carded
7. He seems to be the ONLY source of these figures


and i could go on, this needs to be cleared up, because if it does turn out he is carding them or they were sealed later then he will be getting more than a few knocks on his door for money back i can tell you!

I have obviously read everything and the facts above if not defended are damning evidence in my book. The list proves nothing and unfortunately unless Toni defends himself and can prove or justify his actions over the past 20 years I am afraid that this will never be solved.

For me, there's no smoke without fire and regardless of JJ's reputation other old school collectors have contributed enough information to not necessarily completely confirm JJ's "story" but there is sufficient enough (if not defended) to assume that Toni is indeed guilty however horrific the consequences are.

Without Toni giving his side of detailed events to the contrary this will never be solved. Obviously he is not going to admit it, but if he can convince the community that he's not guilty then maybe that will ease concerns. If it were me (or most people) being attacked I am damn sure (whether guilty or not) I would be defending myself. The repercussions will be catastrophic, not only for the SW Collecting Community but for Toni also!!

In my opinion, its not what you know its who you know. Toni may well have contacts in the industry to be able to produce re-carded vintage card backs and bubbles which would mean its not necessarily that hard to produce what seems to be an on demand supply of MOCs.

Personally I don't really know what to do with my PD GM MOC figure as I would now like to sell it but will be no part in selling on to the SW community of indeed it is a fake.

All in all, I don't believe this will ever be solved as (similar to hat I have just written)everyone will have their own opinions and that is all they are ever going to be opinions.

I hope I am wrong about Toni and if so will apologise but the evidence looks to damning for me.

If it walks like a duck...