Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[mr_palitoy]

Jason what are you saying? It isn't clear.

The alleged list of cards that were not assembled when sold includes Palitoy ESB/ROTJ cards as well as German cards.

Based on knowing that, I was drawing up a likely list of affected figure/card combos.

I know a bit about rarity as I have an AFA 90 Palitoy MOC focus.

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Hi guys,

I have followed this thread with great interest over the past few days as it has developed. I have been doing a bit of rooting around on the internet and I have found something that bothered me slightly. There may be nothing in it but "ace" mentioned the name Arthur Bailey in an earlier post, and Toni responded by saying he had dealings with an Arthur in the late 80's/early 90's.

I found this:

http://www.companieslist.co.uk/03819698-xceptional-limited

Don't know wether it is relevant or not but the impression I got from Toni's post was that his dealings with "Arthur" were a decade or so before this. Not sure if it is even the same Arthur as aces claim was he was in the peterborough area, but a search of zoopla indicates the address in Huddersfield was purchased in June 98 and Sold in April 07 so I guess it could be the same guy.

As I said, it might not be relevant and there could be a perfectly good explanation. I thought I would put it out there anyway. Love a good conspiracy theory, me.

What am I missing here or am I being thick as usual? :lol:

Sorry, the link didn't work as I thought it would. Go to the webpage and you will see it is the records for a company called exceptional limited. Its defunct, but the interesting bit is on the tab entitled "company directors and board members". Names and dates.

Company directors and board members:

ANTONI EMCHOWICZ
Secretary, RETAILER, 1999.08.11 - 2004.11.23
17 DAUBIGNY ROAD , BRIGHTON
BN2 3FT, EAST SUSSEX
ARTHUR BAILEY
Director, RETAILER, 1999.08.11 - 2004.11.23
22 NEAR BANK SHELLEY , HUDDERSFIELD
HD8 8LS, WEST YORKSHIRE
BLACKFRIAR SECRETARIES LIMITED
Nominee Secretary, 1999.08.04 - 1999.08.11
44 UPPER BELGRAVE ROAD CLIFTON , BRISTOL
BS8 2XN, AVON
BLACKFRIAR DIRECTORS LIMITED
Nominee Director, 1999.08.04 - 1999.08.11
44 UPPER BELGRAVE ROAD CLIFTON , BRISTOL
BS8 2XN, AVON

Jason

 

[Richard_H]

Oh I get it. Antoni and Arthur.

 

[JuniorChubb]

I'm glad someone posted that first as I was thinking the same :lol:

If you go to the 'Company directors and board members tab' on the right you will see some interesting information, that could tie two names together a bit more closely and recently than previously thought depending on how you interpret it.

Oops, Jason beat me to it

 

[Joe]

Ok so according to that page they were both directors in the same company up until 2004, which is interesting but let's not forget what Toni actually said:

I have completely lost touch with Arthur since he went on to other things and have had no contact with him for over 10 years.

He wasn't bang on with the amount of time that has passed since 2004 but he was close, it's entirely likely since that business partnership ended they haven't actually spoken.

I'm not going to read too much into that business listing.

 

[spoons]

A fair point Joe, but good investigating by Mr Shifter

 

[ace]

I did indeed buy various toys from a dealer called Arthur in the 80s and early 90s

He had a reputation for getting old stock and had good contacts in the regular toy trade.

He was one of several dealers that I bought carded Star Wars from.

He seemed a nice guy who seemed always short of cash and often offered items which he didn't exactly have but could get his hands on if he could make the sale in advance .

So at times it wasn't clear if he actually had the goods or just new a man who had them .

I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised I never saw any or was offered any samples from him .

I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo non of which came in trade boxes

The way Toni talked in his only post it really sounded like he did not really know Arthur very well at all.


But now we know that is far from the case , when in fact Toni and Arthur were both Directors of the same company for 5 years from June 99 to April 04 called Xceptional limited



maybe its very simple Toni has a very bad memory and as he seems to have forgotten his 5 you long directorship with Arthur maybe its the same bad memory that means he has forgotten the 25,000 cards , figures and bubbles he bought or did he just buy into from Arthur back then also ?

Toni this is over mate

i think its your turn to say something now, and i think you owe this to the collators all around the world that has bought these items from you to here the truth from you .

i look forward to that post

Jason

 

[itfciain]

I would certainly say that this doesn't tally with the sort of relationship that Toni implied in his post. Can anyone find what this company did/sold?

 

[Mr-shifter]

I did indeed buy various toys from a dealer called Arthur in the 80s and early 90s

He had a reputation for getting old stock and had good contacts in the regular toy trade.

He was one of several dealers that I bought carded Star Wars from.

He seemed a nice guy who seemed always short of cash and often offered items which he didn't exactly have but could get his hands on if he could make the sale in advance .

So at times it wasn't clear if he actually had the goods or just new a man who had them .

I do remember there indeed was a list of items which included unused cards but these never materialised I never saw any or was offered any samples from him .

I ended up buying quite large quantities of carded figures from him which were a mix of Kenner ,POTF,Palitoy.,german General Mills and Trilogo non of which came in trade boxes

The way Toni talked in his only post it really sounded like he did not really know Arthur very well at all.


But now we know that is far from the case , when in fact Toni and Arthur were both Directors of the same company for 5 years from June 99 to April 04 called Xceptional limited

It was that particular part of Toni's statement that bothered me with regards to the additional evidence that I had found.

I would also like to point out, that all I have found is a record from company house that would indicate that Toni was involved in a business with a guy called Arthur Bailey for five years. It doesn't state what the company did, wether they were active, wether it even has anything to do with this. For me, it was food for thought, that is all.

 

[Hothrebel]

I think some sort of statement from Toni wouldn't go a miss?

 

[Caswellbot]

Agreed. Seems like a fairly bizarre situation to me. :?

 

[ace]

no this is over, it will take time for people to take it in and understand but its over.


i really think closure is now needed

When i dig out the list i will publish it so its public and so all collectors that are affected by this can at least know what the figures are.

then everyone will have this info so they can make the choice before buying that what they seem to be may not be what it is 100%

sorry for being the messenger on this i really am sorry this is going to affect a lot of collators now

not a good few day

jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Assuming the 25,000 cardbacks deal is true, this would indicate that Arthur received a % of the profits that Toni made on them up until 2004, at which
point he bought Arthur out.

Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Jason- you need to publish your smoking gun.

Otherwise this thread is conspiracy without fact.

I would prioritise this as I believe you have the attention of many collectors whom need a conclusion and cannot be left on pins and needles.

Like we have discussed privately- I am grateful that you are here, but lets separate the garnish and see the protein.

Best Wishes,

Grant

 

[rhyfelyser]

As someone who's bought just the one MOC from "Marsking" before i've followed this thread quite closely. One question i have, if all of this is true, where did he get all the minty figures from to put in the bubbles/cardbacks? Palitoy factory before it closed down?
Don't know who to believe especially as "ace" has a seemingly shady past from what i've read.
Just my two penny...

 

[ace]

Jason- you need to publish your smoking gun.

Otherwise this thread is conspiracy without fact.

I would prioritise this as I believe you have the attention of many collectors whom need a conclusion and cannot be left on pins and needles.

Like we have discussed privately- I am grateful that you are here, but lets separate the garnish and see the protein.

Best Wishes,

Grant

Grant i understand how important it is to fellow collators to put closure on this and so they all know where they stand .

the task of going through 20 years of old business history is a large task for me and is something i planed to do over the holidays anyway .

this is now even more important than before as i feel we will not be getting much more info from other sources now.

so i Promesse that i will take the time out over the holiday to dig this list out and publish it in full so this info is out in the public domain.

i am a collector my self and can feel how some of you are feeling tonight and as such i will not rest till its public

sincerely

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

As someone who's bought just the one MOC from "Marsking" before i've followed this thread quite closely. One question i have, if all of this is true, where did he get all the minty figures from to put in the bubbles/cardbacks? Palitoy factory before it closed down?
Don't know who to believe especially as "ace" has a seemingly shady past from what i've read.
Just my two penny...

I think the list will include mint figures. Others mint figures were bought back in the day when there weren't enough for the number of cardbacks.

Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Great.- Thankyou.

To be honest guys- this thread is dead unless Toni wants to add anything until Jason provides his evidence.

Don't you think?

 

[plantman]

just buy the afa 85-90's and beater moc's

honestly there are thousands of minty figures out there, maybe thats why they are drip fed, as and when they are sealed, maybe they are being sealed right now??

its a lot of speculation, interesting though.

 

[ace]

TOYTONI your in here now so talk to us get this over with for everyone

jason

 

[edd_jedi]

I'm still not sure what everyone is hoping to achieve from all this. It has been common knowledge for many years that Toni has millions of mint carded figures, I'm amazed at some of the people that seem to be surprised by this 'revelation' and the effect it will have on the value of their collection. All this hounding is likely to do is stop him selling them any more, and potentially crash the value of ones that have already been sold. Personally I've never been stupid enough to think anything he sells is rare, but I have bought from him many times and it's comforting to know there's a steady supplier of top quality MOCs out there (one of the last suppliers may I add.)

I think we all agree it's unlikely (although possible) that they have been sealed more recently than the 80s. What does it matter anyway - if so they're indistinguishable from the real thing even by AFA. As Joe said earlier maybe that's not 'right' but it's a fact, and we're talking about toys here after all.

 

[ace]

I'm still not sure what everyone is hoping to achieve from all this. It has been common knowledge for many years that Toni has millions of mint carded figures, I'm amazed at some of the people that seem to be surprised by this 'revelation' and the effect it will have on the value of their collection. All this hounding is likely to do is stop him selling them any more, and potentially crash the value of ones that have already been sold. Personally I've never been stupid enough to think anything he sells is rare, but I have bought from him many times and it's comforting to know there's a steady supplier of top quality MOCs out there (one of the last suppliers may I add.)

I think we all agree it's unlikely (although possible) that they have been sealed more recently than the 80s. What does it matter anyway - if so they're indistinguishable from the real thing even by AFA. As Joe said earlier maybe that's not 'right' but it's a fact, and we're talking about toys here after all.

Well edd_jedi why people are unhappy as its wrong what he has done and many many people have spent many £1000s on things that are not what they seem.

the thing was edd_jedi when you posted this Toni was on here reading but had decided to not say anything.

and the cards figures and bubbles were offered well after the Palitoy company had closed so these were un-carded at the time they were offered to me , so i think its time we star to understand the simple truth these were sold as un-carded figures , card and bubbles , and then have been put together much later .

thats why this is all very wrong , i have also been told that there maybe some versions of the figures on the wrong card , i e a later version of a figures on the earlier card so there is some more things coming up t back this up , as soon as i have photos i will put them up , but the drought is over now

 

[edd_jedi]

Nobody knows for sure if he has done anything wrong yet (by that we mean selling used figures to surplus cards and bubbles.)

 

[ace]

Nobody knows for sure if he has done anything wrong yet (by that we mean selling used figures to surplus cards and bubbles.)

Maybe he should have come on here and just tell us him self and stop us all having to work it out ?.

i know when he posted lies about me i was straight on here with a response i did not need to think up a response i gave a detailed reply of what i remembered right away it was not hard for me as it was the truth .

sorry he told me at the time he bought them and he was buying up lose figures to put on them back then also , you can believe what you want to i know what he was doing then as i was there , the end

jason

 

[TOYTONI]

Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.

 

[Joseph_Y]

While I'e never met Toni or Jason,

Jasons reputation for both having a giant collection, but also rumors of his selling fake props, fake prototypes and general, over the top claims precedes him. Google the mans name and see some of the storys that come up.... ALL true or ALL just jealous people trying to discredit him?? Hmm questions

Toni's reputation for having made a great score on tons of MOC figures,good service and fair prices, and the condition of the items offered, precedes him. Rumors out there of these being sealed post production, here and there...once again jealousy or fact under the surface??

How about if someone that has a German piece that definitely traces back to Toni, and someone that has a worn German moc send them BOTH to AFA or UKG to compare the glue used under a microscope. If everything matches...then the claim about them being glued later than production is proven to be just that...a rumor.

If there's an issue with the process being different, then obviously this is a HUGE shake up in the foreign (from US) market, and it will devalue thousands of collections, as an original factory sealed item, is not and should not be worth the same as an item glued at a later date. Saying that there's no difference is like saying that the "Blue Harvest" micro 4 ups and other HCs are worth the same as real hardcopys because they came from the same mold....

How does that proposal to have the seals compared sound?? IF I still owned any of the items that I'd gotten from Toni, I'd gladly volunteer them for this experiment.

Cheers
Joe

 

[tiefighterboy]

Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.

That totally clears up if you heat sealed figures to card backs in the 90's. :roll:

 

[Mr-shifter]

Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.

That totally clears up if you heat sealed figures to card backs in the 90's. :roll:

It clears up the issue around the odd company that he and Arthur had and he has already denied the late sealed cards story in his earlier post. Jason has not yet produced anything other than ill will towards Toni and those that seem to know a bit about this process are not nearly convinced it would have been viable back in the day.

For me it comes down to reputations until I see some more evidence. One guys rep is very good, the others, well let's say Jason's due diligence was done a lot quicker than Toni's.

It had made for an interesting discussion though.

 

[BadMotivator]

Mr Bailey contacted me with a request for help regarding web development and possible finance as he wanted to devlop a site similar to what is now ABE books but for toys - I had mentioned that I had contacts in web deveopment in a conversation we had had and at the time designing and building webisites was a pretty complex and specialised business. I said I would look into it but I didnt want it having anything to do with my toy business as a sole trader. So he suggested that he could register a company and if anything came of the project it could be run through that-I said OK sent him whatever it was £50 or so signed a form that he sent me and that was it.I made a few preliminary enquiries but nothing came of the idea it was just a name on the company register he may have continued payments to keep the name registered I have no idea .End of story.

That totally clears up if you heat sealed figures to card backs in the 90's. :roll:

It clears up the issue around the odd company that he and Arthur had and he has already denied the late sealed cards story in his earlier post. Jason has not yet produced anything other than ill will towards Toni and those that seem to know a bit about this process are not nearly convinced it would have been viable back in the day.

For me it comes down to reputations until I see some more evidence. One guys rep is very good, the others, well let's say Jason's due diligence was done a lot quicker than Toni's.

It had made for an interesting discussion though.

It doesn't clear up the issue of the old company at all in my opinion. The idea that someone you hardly know calls you up and you agree to be a director for a company they're setting up is ridiculous. Directorship comes with all sorts of liabilities. You'd only enter into it with someone you knew and trusted.

 

[Richard_H]

Totally agree on that point. There'd be solicitors involved etc it's not something you can enter lightly