Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[**Delboy75**]

And that's exactly where I was going next.
If he didn't get them all sealed years ago then he would be sitting on loads of unused card backs that would be worth an absolute fortune and no way on earth would any dealer sit on those.

 

[mr_palitoy]

And that's exactly where I was going next.
If he didn't get them all sealed years ago then he would be sitting on loads of unused card backs that would be worth an absolute fortune and no way on earth would any dealer sit on those.

But if you had recarded them to start with, you'd have dug yourself a hole. People would twig if you started selling the unused cardbacks as well.

:shock:

Jason

 

[ace]

You guys do realise back in the day when Toni was selling these on his Stall they were very cheap.
It was when they started flying off his stall he upped the prices and started dripping them out obviously aware he was onto something big. It was us guys that made Toni up his prices.

The only way i can see Jason's Story being legit is if the 25'000 cardbacks and bubbles came with the figures, and Toni had access to one of the palitoy heat sealers and had them all assembled in one go.
No one could go out and find the quantity of mint complete figures needed, and back in thoses days i seriously doubt they could be sealed to the cards with something 'knocked up'.

Do you think this could all be done on the quiet?


So where is this list Jason talks about?

The 25,000 figures worked out at around 40p each cost , i wanted to buy it as it was such a great deal and you can make money on these.

back in the day some fugues did go for good money and Toni was selling some at £45 each so there was good money to be made on this deal , you just needed to let them out slowly.

and the list had the cards . the bubbles and the figures as part of the deal , there was also some tips of figures that were complete carded figures but lots and lots of unmade carded figures.

there would also not be any need to ask someone to do the bubble work on the quirt , this is not like making figures you have the components you would just ask for a company to put them on the card for you , and no one would take as no one would really care as thats what these packaging companies did all the time , and back then star wars was dead and in cheep shops and clearance shops , the only good thing about this deal what some of the cards were ESB cards in there and some rare figures so it was a good deal to be had

the list will come i have move hours and that biz stuff is in deep storage but i have it and when i last went though stuff when packing to move i saw it and went wow thats cool stuff . so i will dig it out and i plan to put up a scan on line every pages everyone hill have this info , i will not hide anything from you guys .

jason

 

[edd_jedi]

And that's exactly where I was going next.
If he didn't get them all sealed years ago then he would be sitting on loads of unused card backs that would be worth an absolute fortune and no way on earth would any dealer sit on those.

Wether it was 25,000 unused cards or MOC figures, you would have to do what Toni has done either way. If you didn't sit on them and trickle them out the market would be flooded and the value would drop to zero.

 

[Lafos]

The sealing process itself was quite easy. All you had to do was gettin´a hand on such a machine or a manufacturer that would do the job.

Have a look at 0:25 from the Palitoy factory footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEX1jvSFDo

 

[**Delboy75**]

Definitely Toni has gone about it spot on.

Jason (mr palitoy) had a good point too about the card backs.

Anyway, that's me done with this thread as its just going to go on and on and on.
Jason J obviously believe's he's telling the truth and Toni is not here defending himself so its a one sided story.

I don't know who's telling the truth and tbh the damage has already been done.

 

[**Delboy75**]

Sorry double post.

 

[mr_palitoy]

And that's exactly where I was going next.
If he didn't get them all sealed years ago then he would be sitting on loads of unused card backs that would be worth an absolute fortune and no way on earth would any dealer sit on those.

Wether it was 25,000 unused cards or MOC figures, you would have to do what Toni has done either way. If you didn't sit on them and trickle them out the market would be flooded and the value would drop to zero.

If there are 1000s of unused cardbacks out there and people knew the quantities involved, would you be prepared to pay top dollar for a set knowing that the market
will be flooded and the value would drop dramatically. What would you pay for a set of these?

From:-

http://www.raumhafen.de/cgi-bin/showp.pl?pic=/galerie/starwars/sw/esb_45back_d&titel=German%20ESB%20Figures

"A big stock of figures made its way to dealers in the UK when the Palitoy factory was closed down in the late eighties. These figures tend to be in case fresh condition and there are quite some around. Prices for them are in the EUR 100-350 range and they are not particularly rare. These are basically the figures not marked in the rare column below."

A set would comprise roughly:-

21b
at at commander
at at driver
ben kenobi
bespin security guard black
bespin security guard white
bossk
c3po removable limbs
chewbacca
fx7
han solo
han solo bespin
han solo hoth
ig88
leia organa
leia organa bespin gown
leia organa hoth
power droid
r2d2 sensorscope
rebel commander
rebel soldier
stormtrooper
cloud car pilot
yoda

That's a total of 24 cards.

Approx 1000 sets if distribution is even and there still are 25000 unused cards out there.


cheers Jason

 

[ace]

And that's exactly where I was going next.
If he didn't get them all sealed years ago then he would be sitting on loads of unused card backs that would be worth an absolute fortune and no way on earth would any dealer sit on those.

Wether it was 25,000 unused cards or MOC figures, you would have to do what Toni has done either way. If you didn't sit on them and trickle them out the market would be flooded and the value would drop to zero.

personally as a dealer back then i would have pulled all the carded figures that there was small numbers off and kept them back as an investment

Then i would have sold as many of the figures that there was big numbers of at just below the currant prices they were selling for back then till i got my investment back which would have taken around a year or two ? then i would have stopped nocking them out and put up the prices to a new price about 20 % more than before, and again anything i was running out of i would have held back or put up maybe 40% and just let them go over over many years

as to the card backs again i would have wanted to sell these off to get my investment back , back then there was a lot less die hards that would have wanted these card back then but there was some so i would have put the German cards into sets and sell them off as sets , i used to go to Germany in the 90s and i would have cleaned up over there , so it would helped get the investment back even sooner,

anyway thats what i would have done

one funny thing thinking about it ,it could be a good thing i did not get this deal as it would have been another negative untrue story like the one about the hoth troopers, i could have created another story to haunt me as someone would have said i made the card backs my self and i would have another negative story going around about me so maybe i missed another built

anyway if i had have managed to get that deal back then thats what i would have done , its no different to how i handled other deal i did get .

there you go

jason

 

[edd_jedi]

If there are 1000s of unused cardbacks out there and people knew the quantities involved, would you be prepared to pay top dollar for a set knowing that the market
will be flooded and the value would drop dramatically. What would you pay for a set of these?

This isn't news though, I've known about his stash for a decade (I've bought at least a dozen figures from him over the years, mainly tri logos) and others have apparently known for much longer so people seem to be happy with his prices despite the fact they know there's an endless supply of them already.

And based on the conversations I've had with him over the years (eg claiming he doesn't have any left and then a month later another appears on eBay) he has no intention of ever flooding the market, which is good business sense.

 

[ace]

And based on the conversations I've had with him over the years (eg claiming he doesn't have any left and then a month later another appears on eBay) he has no intention of ever flooding the market, which is good business sense.

ok lets leave the card issue to one side here and just look at this post a moment.




so you know he is lying when he says he dose not having any left then they turn up on Ebay next month ?

so your saying he just lies to your face ?

thats interesting has this happened to others dose this happen a lot ?

you say he has no intention of ever flooding the market, but at what cost ? just lying.

where dose that stop ? its only toys, lying about stuff to cover up this all sounds crazy , it will all come out in the end , people talk and everything is on the net now days you cannot hide anything now days and its a very small community that really is into this stuff at this level.

but i guess its big money now for him what do you think 50K 75K profit year ? maybe more ? , it all sounds very greedy its all been paid for years ago this is all 100% profit now so do you really need to hide the fact that you have 10s of 1000s of these things and lie to try to make them appear to be rare ?

real collectables have a high price if there is desire & rarity . one of these aspects in this care is being falsified so whats the real price ?

if there was 10,000 vinyl caped Palitoy Jawa's turn up i guess my one would be worth £20 ? so it is right lie and hid the fact that some of these figures are only worth a few pounds and there are 100s of them and not a £900 ? as they are mega rare ?

its making me think a lot more about this hole thing a lot

so you are doing 70K for the last 5 years and 45K for the 5 years before that and so one what we talking about ? a million out of the hands of collectors over the years ?


wow that just hit me ok i get it thats a lot to lose .

This has just changed from being some old toy figures from the past for me and he says and she says to LOTS of money and a life stile.

wow ok

 

[Joe]

Jason, you have given us all food for thought but without evidence to back up your story this is going to go on for another 30 pages. You can see from the replies that there are people that are already starting to doubt the cards that Toni sells and a lot of people think it *might* have been possible for him to manufacture these at some point, or find someone who could but if you are not going to produce any solid proof or evidence to prove what are you saying is fact then we are all just wasting our time theorising.

I really don't want to try to mediate this issue between you guys or dictate how this thread goes from here but I would encourage people to push for facts on this from Mr Joiner and not just guess if it happened or not without any proof.

Jason, please take the time needed to find and scan those old documents and maybe bring some more evidence to the discussion. While Toni and yourself might go in circles if you hash this out in this thread (both denying each others claims) the reality is that you are the only two on this forum that know the truth, one of you is lying and it's important for the community to know who that person is.

 

[itfciain]

While Toni and yourself might go in circles if you hash this out in this thread (both denying each others claims) the reality is that you are the only two on this forum that know the truth, one of you is lying and it's important for the community to know who that person is.

Pretty much sums it up

 

[ace]

While Toni and yourself might go in circles if you hash this out in this thread (both denying each others claims) the reality is that you are the only two on this forum that know the truth, one of you is lying and it's important for the community to know who that person is.

Pretty much sums it up

i have nothing to gain in any way ?

if you read back though all this to the point when the card backs first came up i did not even think i was saying anything important and i thought lots of people knew about this history.

It was only when Toni called me a lier did i even go into the full story , i am not going to walk away anymore when someone calls me a lier anymore , those days are gone now for me.

i have only really had grief from all of this and i stand to gain nothing.

it is actually harder for me to stand my ground and say the truth than it would have been to have just back off or find a way to back out of this, but its not the truth so i felt that it was important to say what i knew .

i gain nothing in any way , and the silly thing is i never had an issue with Toni ever up to this he was a trader i knew from the past , i did not even know he still traded, so there is no agenda here .

as to Toni i can see where he has to stand he is in a corner , but it still dose not change the truth as i have laid it out and others also remember a lot of this stuff also its not just me that remembers this stuff.

at the end of the day more will come out on this it just needs time.

jason

 

[tiefighterboy]

The sealing process itself was quite easy. All you had to do was gettin´a hand on such a machine or a manufacturer that would do the job.

Have a look at 0:25 from the Palitoy factory footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEX1jvSFDo

If only it was that easy.....we would be in serious trouble right now.

 

[edd_jedi]

so you know he is lying when he says he dose not having any left then they turn up on Ebay next month ?

so your saying he just lies to your face ?

thats interesting has this happened to others dose this happen a lot ?

you say he has no intention of ever flooding the market, but at what cost ? just lying.

I guess it depends on how we define lying. I've never really seen it this way, what he means is "I don't have any more that I want to sell right now." From memory I asked him if he had any more Palitoy Luke Bespin's and he said no, but some time later he sold another. Maybe that was a one off or not, but the fact is he's treating this as a business so if somebody asks him straight out how many of these do you have, he's obviously not going to say 1000 because that would render them worthless.

The stock on his website is always changing so we all know for a fact that it isn't an exhaustive list of what he has. Again is that lying? Not really in my eyes, just trickling it all out as usual.

Selfish maybe, but I don't for one minute believe anybody else with his stash would act any more honourably to be honest, all dealers and even most small-time forum sellers are out to make a profit.

 

[Lafos]

so you know he is lying when he says he dose not having any left then they turn up on Ebay next month ?

so your saying he just lies to your face ?

thats interesting has this happened to others dose this happen a lot ?

you say he has no intention of ever flooding the market, but at what cost ? just lying.

I guess it depends on how we define lying. I've never really seen it this way, what he means is "I don't have any more that I want to sell right now." From memory I asked him if he had any more Palitoy Luke Bespin's and he said no, but some time later he sold another. Maybe that was a one off or not, but the fact is he's treating this as a business so if somebody asks him straight out how many of these do you have, he's obviously not going to say 1000 because that would render them worthless.

Selfish maybe, but I don't for one minute believe anybody else with his stash would act any more honourably to be honest, all dealers and even most small-time forum sellers are out to make a profit.

Sure that´s free market economy and I guess this is not the point some of us are worrying about. We would like to know if all those MOCs where sealed by Palitoy or afterwards by a third party.

 

[ace]

The sealing process itself was quite easy. All you had to do was gettin´a hand on such a machine or a manufacturer that would do the job.

Have a look at 0:25 from the Palitoy factory footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEX1jvSFDo

If only it was that easy.....we would be in serious trouble right now.

its not the bubbles that stops people making fakes today its the printing , my friend owns a print factory and the techniques they use to day are like alien technology from what they used back in the 80s

then it was all photographic not its all digital worlds apart and yes than god for that just think about classic movie posters what people could do with them if you could not tell them apart , but thank god you can

 

[edd_jedi]

Sure that´s free market economy and I guess this is not the point some of us are worrying about. We would like to know if all those MOCs where sealed by Palitoy or afterwards by a third party.

Well Toni has denied it already, so you just need to decide who you believe. But I would also very seriously remember that what's been suggested isn't beyond the realms of possibility if indeed unused cards/bubbles/figures were floating around after the Palitoy sell-off.

Interestingly I found this old post by Toni:

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14488&p=197123#p197123

He certainly implies he has lots of cardbacks, whether used or not.

 

[tiefighterboy]

The sealing process itself was quite easy. All you had to do was gettin´a hand on such a machine or a manufacturer that would do the job.

Have a look at 0:25 from the Palitoy factory footage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFEX1jvSFDo

If only it was that easy.....we would be in serious trouble right now.

its not the bubbles that stops people making fakes today its the printing , my friend owns a print factory and the techniques they use to day are like alien technology from what they used back in the 80s

then it was all photographic not its all digital worlds apart and yes than god for that just think about classic movie posters what people could do with them if you could not tell them apart , but thank god you can

I know of one repro artist that does use a printing outfit. Having said that, If it was economically feasible to have his bubbles heat sealed...he would be on it in a heartbeat. Once again BOTH OF US are speculating based on our knowledge and What we think. In addition, the way images are put together has changed, but much of the basics of the materials used to print are the same.