Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[BadMotivator]

I've got to say ive had an upside down bubble hoth stormie, it looked like it was deliberately put on that way as the figure would've been to big to go in the correct way up.

Yeah, I'm saying it was deliberately put on, but by someone working in a factory that didn't know what they were doing, they thought they were doing it right.

Listen, I'm not saying what I've outlined is what happened, I don't know anything about anyone mentioned in this thread. I'm jus saying that its the most likely scenario in my opinion. And I'm sure someone will come along in a minute and blow my theroy out of the water with some actual facts (something which my opinion is totally lacking )

 

[Richard_H]

Again more good points made. My mind isn't made up either way as there are still too many he said she said type comments. It'll certainly be interesting to see one of the golden oldies at a UK con in future.

 

[ace]

So are you saying that its easy to seal a blister pack and make it factory standard faultless and undetectable? The crap you're referring to on the market place is usually quite obvious no? Certainly detectable by AFA?

Yes I am. In a factory that does it all the time it wouldn't even be something they'd think about. Once they had the tooling made and the machine set up they could just chock them out one after another perfect every time. If if there were any dodgy looking ones, well there's thousands more, just chuck it.

ok lets say this is all speculation but lets look at this aspect

i agree it dose not take much work to find a company that dose packaging to pay them to run something like these figures through there plant , its not even a small amount 25,000 items ?

even if you just wanted to run some of them say 2000 items ? you would have to prep them ready for the packing company to run them but any company that dose this would run them for no more than £2000 for x2000 and that would be good money for packing company for this work when you see products with vacuum formed packaging with the finished product retailing for no more than £1and thats for the complete product in the 1000s of £1 shops around the country.

the figures its self is the costly part followed by the design work for the packaging then the printing then the bubble , but as all these items were on the list of items included for sale so all that was needed was to put them together and i think that could not cost more then £1 now and back then it would have been maybe 20p tops

as i say these are just thoughts

jason

 

[ace]

i would like to also point out that figures on the wrong cards really did not have a value back then and if they were rare figures or weapon on mismatch figure then most dealers would often just take the figure off the card and sell it lose .

so deliberately putting a figure on the wrong card would have been a wast back then, and as you saw in my post when i saw some of the Hoth troopers were not packaged well it was a disappointment to me and it made it harder for me to sell them back then.

so know one would have dose this to figures deliberately

as to Arthur putting them on the cards i do not know why he would have bothered ? he was buying them in and turning them around , he was not into plastic that much he liked older stuff like tin Robots etc so buying in these figures and then turning them around making some good money on them so he could buy a nice robot was more his stile .

just some thoughts and to show that i felt Arthur was a good by and a good dealer and a collector also .

jason

 

[nottscoupe]

All,

This thread is one amazing read. I have over 20 years collecting experience and only ever read these boards, but I have met some of you at toy fairs. Edd some of my last tri logos was off you at memorabilia a few years back. I have also used to be a customer of Hoth Rebel (Nick) but I no longer collect as I have everything I need.

I find it fascinating that deals that happened over 20 years ago and items from these deals are in my collection.

I have purchased off both Jason & Toni and all the MOC I have ever had off both are 100% fine. I also have one of Jasons Hoth Troopers which has an upside down bubble. It came from Off world in the late 1990s.

I only have 45bk Palitoys from Toni and they have different bubbles on them. The double stems all have the bubbling mentioned on them. Again all seems legit.

My view is even if they have not been sealed at the palitoy factory I can still appreciate them for what childhood hood memories they bring back. I have not got any german 45backs but now actually want one, they are clearly a unique piece which is from the palitoy factory but never offered for sale to the public. Could they be classed as mass produced prototypes?

I also believe the grey hoth trooper may be legit, a local collector to me came across some in the early 90s at a car boot sale in cossal. This was when vintage was still in some shops, why would someone fake them at that time?
Jason - Your showmaster shows are great, enjoyed meeting BDW a few weeks ago. Thank you

 

[tiefighterboy]

I'd just like to chime in here to say that its not difficult or expensive to seal a blister pack. The evidence is all around you, just look in your local post office or pound shop and look at all the crap that's sold for pence in blister packs. Yes the machines are expensive but the tooling is not. And for those saying it wouldn't be cost effective I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. Even in the eighties it would have been an absolute no brainer to get these cards sealed regardless of initial outlay. And if you got an exisitng packaging company to do it, then you'd only be paying for the tooling and labour which would be a minimal outlay. With the massive volume of cards we're talking about anyone buying them would have known it would take years and years to trickle them out, probably longer than they're likely to be alive! Over that time they could make the initial outlay back thousands of times.

I'm not saying Toni did seal up the cards, but let's not pretend that it would be a difficult or costly thing to do.

Nothing is cheap about tooling and design..then or now. Seting up, housing, design and actually making these look 100% legit would not be easy or cost the price of a pack of bubble gum.

Too add to this established packaging companies work on contracts. They tend not to be job shops that some slob can walk into and request you do a one time run for them. There has to be value and longevity in that for them.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Aussiejames on imperial gunnery spotted this on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=fPc89wXJokIE5syIU09Pgxz%252BFwE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This is the first card type that was produced with the english text on the back.

The missing price sticker and back story it was bought by a UK collector is interesting. It means that some of the original
cards were assembled in the factory and made it onto the market at least in the UK, though normally they had a palitoy sticker
placed over the lower half of the card replacing the german text.

This gives credence to the theory that at least some of the original cards with english text on the back were fully assembled in the
palitoy factory and made it to market, at least in the UK. It's odd that German cards without the palitoy sticker on the back would
have been sold in the UK though.



Jason

 

[tiefighterboy]

I have made up my mind after much reading, thinking and discussion with a few of my close friends. The whole story of sealing these in the 90's is ********.

 

[BadMotivator]

I'd just like to chime in here to say that its not difficult or expensive to seal a blister pack. The evidence is all around you, just look in your local post office or pound shop and look at all the crap that's sold for pence in blister packs. Yes the machines are expensive but the tooling is not. And for those saying it wouldn't be cost effective I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. Even in the eighties it would have been an absolute no brainer to get these cards sealed regardless of initial outlay. And if you got an exisitng packaging company to do it, then you'd only be paying for the tooling and labour which would be a minimal outlay. With the massive volume of cards we're talking about anyone buying them would have known it would take years and years to trickle them out, probably longer than they're likely to be alive! Over that time they could make the initial outlay back thousands of times.

I'm not saying Toni did seal up the cards, but let's not pretend that it would be a difficult or costly thing to do.

Nothing is cheap about tooling and design..then or now. Seting up, housing, design and actually making these look 100% legit would not be easy or cost the price of a pack of bubble gum.

Too add to this established packaging companies work on contracts. They tend not to be job shops that some slob can walk into and request you do a one time run for them. There has to be value and longevity in that for them.

I know nothing about prices back in the 80s but nowadays I don't think it's as expensive as you think:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1122779927/Blister_Pack_Sealing_Machine.html
Bottom end of the market obviously but $600 for the machine isn't a lot.
And tooling isn't hard to get made. Its just a block of steel after all

 

[itfciain]

Wow, I go away for a couple of days and this tread grow by 10 pages

I am still not sure what to think, but respect all of the guys with far more knowledge than me for their input. It would be nice to see some more posts from Toni on this matter and I think that JJ puts some interesting things forward that only Toni can really counter.

 

[tiefighterboy]

The 80's did not have cheap software to design dies and fixtures. It would be cheaper now, but back then not cheap at all. Considering you could pick up sealed figures back then for $10 or $20, I highly doubt anyone would invest funds into it. Even today you do not see the likes of Mark Poon using heat seals on his bubbles and this is due to the fact of cost. This can be debated forever, but for me the whole story of heat sealing these is fantasy.

 

[BadMotivator]

I'd just like to point out that I know **** all about anything and thinking about it I should have kept my half baked opinions to myself. I don't know enough to make any sensible contribution to this thread. It is fascinating though!

For what its worth, I don't think any of this will have much effect on prices in the UK (maybe more in the states). I for one think that controversial items are cool!

 

[tiefighterboy]

I'd just like to point out that I know **** all about anything and thinking about it I should have kept my half baked opinions to myself. I don't know enough to make any sensible contribution to this thread. It is fascinating though!

For what its worth, I don't think any of this will have much effect on prices in the UK (maybe more in the states). I for one think that controversial items are cool!

Everybody's Opinion counts. Remember that. :wink: Hell I could be wrong...would not be the first time. :lol:

 

[BadMotivator]

Everybody's Opinion counts. Remember that. :wink: Hell I could be wrong...would not be the first time. :lol:

Thanks mate. I don't know Jason, Toni or this Aurthur bloke and yet here I am talking **** about them on the internet! I've become everything I hate!!

TBH I'm just interested in the logistics. I'd love to know more about sealing and I'd love to know what 25,000 mint MOCs look like in one room! And I find all the deals and finds that went down back then fascinating. Buying boxes of case fresh mocs, its what dreams are made of!

 

[ace]

All,

This thread is one amazing read. I have over 20 years collecting experience and only ever read these boards, but I have met some of you at toy fairs. Edd some of my last tri logos was off you at memorabilia a few years back. I have also used to be a customer of Hoth Rebel (Nick) but I no longer collect as I have everything I need.

I find it fascinating that deals that happened over 20 years ago and items from these deals are in my collection.

I have purchased off both Jason & Toni and all the MOC I have ever had off both are 100% fine. I also have one of Jasons Hoth Troopers which has an upside down bubble. It came from Off world in the late 1990s.

I only have 45bk Palitoys from Toni and they have different bubbles on them. The double stems all have the bubbling mentioned on them. Again all seems legit.

My view is even if they have not been sealed at the palitoy factory I can still appreciate them for what childhood hood memories they bring back. I have not got any german 45backs but now actually want one, they are clearly a unique piece which is from the palitoy factory but never offered for sale to the public. Could they be classed as mass produced prototypes?

I also believe the grey hoth trooper may be legit, a local collector to me came across some in the early 90s at a car boot sale in cossal. This was when vintage was still in some shops, why would someone fake them at that time?
Jason - Your showmaster shows are great, enjoyed meeting BDW a few weeks ago. Thank you

hi there nottscoupe

thank you for being one of my customers from way back and still to day at the shows i am pleased you like the shows we run now days it was a way to stay in the hobby owning shops turned into less fun when it all went on line and we could not keep them going so events was the future for us.

i to feel like you that the German cars are of great interest thats why i always wanted a set of the cards as they came just the cards to go with my revenge set

thank you nottscoupe i am pleased someone else has also found these dam Hoth troopers in the natural at a carboot , you know what these things have been one of the banes of my life over the last 20 years.

i bought them from two different dealers that used to live near lester and they both told me they bought them from carboot fairs , i bought them kept one for me sold the rest, there are so many stories of them being fake and me faking them its silly , they are not fake and now others know this also .

i do not know what these troopers are but they are not normal figures so they are something but they are as found , anyway thank you so much for bring this one up.

i know Joe has been on top of some of the issues people have had so this may help, Joe is there anything more you need from me or this guy on this story mate ? or is this trooper issue now put to bed ?


thank you nottscoupe for posting and when you are one of my events again do come up and say hi

jason

 

[edd_jedi]

Considering you could pick up sealed figures back then for $10 or $20, I highly doubt anyone would invest funds into it.

According to previous posts even the carded figures from this Arthur fella were only 50p each if buying in bulk, I imagine bulk lots of cards and bubbles would have been significantly less. So buying something for 50p and selling it for $10 would have been good business even 20 years ago.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Considering you could pick up sealed figures back then for $10 or $20, I highly doubt anyone would invest funds into it.

According to previous posts even the carded figures from this Arthur fella were only 50p each if buying in bulk, I imagine bulk lots of cards and bubbles would have been significantly less. So buying something for 50p and selling it for $10 would have been good business even 20 years ago.

True. Hell, I remember common Jedi figures selling for $5.00 each back then. I am ******* old. :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[olisuds]

I have made up my mind after much reading, thinking and discussion with a few of my close friends. The whole story of sealing these in the 90's is ********.

Well said Todd!

 

[edd_jedi]

Yeah same, there were plenty of figures you could pick up for £10 or less on Jedi cards when I started buying MOCs too. But by the sound of it these were bought in VAST quantities and REALLY cheap. As said earlier I honestly can't believe the market for some of these hasn't crashed already, eg the Palitoy Boba Fett's. Having just checked Toni's website they seem to be selling for £100 more than last time I checked! I guess it's easy to separate a fool and his money.

 

[ace]

Everybody's Opinion counts. Remember that. :wink: Hell I could be wrong...would not be the first time. :lol:

Thanks mate. I don't know Jason, Toni or this Aurthur bloke and yet here I am talking **** about them on the internet! I've become everything I hate!!

TBH I'm just interested in the logistics. I'd love to know more about sealing and I'd love to know what 25,000 mint MOCs look like in one room! And I find all the deals and finds that went down back then fascinating. Buying boxes of case fresh mocs, its what dreams are made of!

well this has tided me up a little bit at the mo , but once this is put to bed i have a few more fun stories from the past , at the time i did not do things by half there is a few amazing finds that were just the best days back then, but i want to deal with this matter first and there is a lot going on here and this one has turned out to be way more important that just another story i thought it was when i started talking about it.
so give a week of so and we can get into more of the past then ok



as to how much space this would take up ? well i can tell you that one

25,000 figures is

a box that is 36" long x 18" wide and 10" high and you will need 261 of these boxes

which will just about fill the average UK 3 bedroom houses ground floor and would need a articulated lory to move it .

so its a lot not something you would have sitting around for many years not being needed .

i will also point out that if the 25,000 sets of parts were flat packed and not put together it would take up a small bathroom easy , or a estate car big difference and something to think about ?

interesting that

jason

 

[olisuds]

Even today you do not see the likes of Mark Poon using heat seals on his bubbles and this is due to the fact of cost. This can be debated forever, but for me the whole story of heat sealing these is fantasy.

Right exactly!

 

[tiefighterboy]

Jason........You are speculating as well as to the manufacture process....................so nobody knows.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Even today you do not see the likes of Mark Poon using heat seals on his bubbles and this is due to the fact of cost. This can be debated forever, but for me the whole story of heat sealing these is fantasy.

Right exactly!

and we both know he would sell his first born if he could turn a buck.

 

[mr_palitoy]

MichiFromHell from the German forum has confirmed that German cards with the english text on the back sold in Germany.

There can't be many with English text on them that sold in Germany or we'd see them showing up in the used cardback collections.
So maybe they started with english text, but were soon changed to the ones without text.

A few of the ones with text made it to market in the UK and Germany and the rest stayed in the palitoy factory until it closed because they changed to cards with the text removed.



Jason

 

[spoons]

So we're right back where we started

From the amount of used card backs you can't be far off with your theories Jason, and its good to have the new thoughts out there.

In the end it all comes down to Jason Joiner's word against Toni's

 

[**Delboy75**]

So not only did Toni buy 25'000 unused cardbacks and bubbles, he also managed to get the bubbles attached to the card absolutely 100% perfectly using a cheap machine he had knocked up in someone's shed, then he went out and feck me he only managed to find 25'000 perfectly mint and complete figures in multiples :roll:


You guys do realise back in the day when Toni was selling these on his Stall they were very cheap.
It was when they started flying off his stall he upped the prices and started dripping them out obviously aware he was onto something big. It was us guys that made Toni up his prices.

The only way i can see Jason's Story being legit is if the 25'000 cardbacks and bubbles came with the figures, and Toni had access to one of the palitoy heat sealers and had them all assembled in one go.
No one could go out and find the quantity of mint complete figures needed, and back in thoses days i seriously doubt they could be sealed to the cards with something 'knocked up'.

Do you think this could all be done on the quiet?


So where is this list Jason talks about?

 

[tiefighterboy]

Buy a repro bubble....heat up a piece of steel....place on bubble..put in vice...........and tada...bubble does not stick and melts.

 

[spoons]

I dont think anyone really believes Toni recarded 25,000 figures. I'm struggling to believe there are 25,000 case fresh cards. Are there 25,000 collectors world wide?

 

[mr_palitoy]

I dont think anyone really believes Toni recarded 25,000 figures. I'm struggling to believe there are 25,000 case fresh cards. Are there 25,000 collectors world wide?

I would imagine you would only recard some of them, the space required for them all carded would be huge.



Jason

 

[spoons]

So where are all the unused cardbacks - Toni's house?

As was said before they would be worth more than the 'recards' in todays market if they did exist

Be nice if Toni did expand on things a bit more, but totally sympathise with keeping quiet after you name is dragged through the mud (and a business to run).