Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[edd_jedi]

So are you saying that its easy to seal a blister pack and make it factory standard faultless and undetectable? The crap you're referring to on the market place is usually quite obvious no? Certainly detectable by AFA?

Another common misconception - I've seen dozens of craply sealed bubbles, and dozens of worn/dirty figures sealed to MOCs. It's quite normal to see glue overhanging the edge, bubbles on at an angle and gaps in the seal (none of which affect an AFA grade.) So this fantasy that sealed figures are perfect and impossible to fake, or that AFA have the absolute say on authenticity is just that, a fantasy.

I've seen plenty of fakes/customs over the years and the giveaway is ALWAYS either the card or the bubble. I've never seen anybody say "that's an obvious fake, look at the seal" unless of course it's an original card and bubble that has been re-sealed.

 

[olisuds]

So are you saying that its easy to seal a blister pack and make it factory standard faultless and undetectable? The crap you're referring to on the market place is usually quite obvious no? Certainly detectable by AFA?

Another common misconception - I've seen dozens of craply sealed bubbles, and dozens of worn/dirty figures sealed to MOCs. So this fantasy that sealed figures are perfect and impossible to fake, or that AFA have the absolute say on authenticity is just that, a fantasy.

I've seen plenty of fakes/customs over the years and the giveaway is ALWAYS either the card or the bubble. I've never seen anybody say "that's an obvious recard, look at the seal."

Yes but you were able to detect them? Even if it was just by the worn figure. I don't believe anyone has ever detected such on Toni's MOCs.

I mean if they are undetectable because thy are perfect then I think it's a bit cynical to suggest they aren't legit on this basis.

 

[edd_jedi]

No this is the first I've heard of it so never had any reason to suspect they were fake. But I'm just saying it's not impossible as some are suggesting.

I'd be interested where the other people that have apparently heard this story got it from. It sounds like it's not just from Jason Joiner.

 

[BadMotivator]

So are you saying that its easy to seal a blister pack and make it factory standard faultless and undetectable? The crap you're referring to on the market place is usually quite obvious no? Certainly detectable by AFA?

Yes I am. In a factory that does it all the time it wouldn't even be something they'd think about. Once they had the tooling made and the machine set up they could just chock them out one after another perfect every time. If if there were any dodgy looking ones, well there's thousands more, just chuck it.

I'd also like to raise a second point.

With my Sherlock Holmes hat on it seems obvious to me that it was this Authur bloke who found the factory and had the tooling made to seal the cards.

This is because of the upside down Hoth Troopers that he sold to Jason. There's no way these could have been made in the Palitoy factory. Even if it was someone their first day, the factory supervisor would have made sure that workers new what they were doing and checked that they were getting it right before they set them loose to work on their own (when such an error could happen). We have footage of of the sealing process in the Palitoy factory, it used to be a gif on someone's footer, right? There's really only one way round the things can be put together.

So if they didn't come from the Palitoy factory then we can say that they were put together somewhere else and before Toni got his hands on them.

I think that before Authur decided to sell the cards he tried to have a go at sealing them himself.

Now, this Authur guy would have known which way round the bubbles went on, so we can rule out him sealing them himself, he must have found a packaging company to do it for him. He and starts with the best selling figs, as Jason put it in a previous post, the Fetts and Imperials always sold well. Unfortunatly the packaging company don't know anything about starwars and put the Hoth Trooper bubbles on upside down.

****! Thinks Authur, but being the shrewd collector he is he doesn't just bin them, he flogs them on to the 17 year old kid WITHOUT EVEN MENTIONING THAT THEY'RE UPSIDE DOWN! This for me in itself speaks volumes, as Author, the king of toy collectors, would have known a) they were upside down, b) thats something a buyer would want to know about and will instantly notice and, most importantly c) he would have known the potential future value of factory error MOCs. Yet he still sold them as regular stock.

Anyway, going back in time a few weeks, before he tells Jason about the cards and sells him anything, he decides that this pile of cards is too big. He knows all about the 'trickle theory' and realises that it'll take so long to get rid of these cards that he's better off cashing out now. He starts talking to Jason and Toni, eventually sells them to Toni AND also gives Toni the details of the factory where he can get them sealed.

And that is my take on what happened.

Probably a load of bollocks, but hey!! :lol:

 

[walkie]

There are some examples of MOC's with the bubbles sealed upside down, in this case hammerhead PBP...

http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77860

 

[Caswellbot]

I agree that bubbles could definitely be sealed upside down on the card at the factory and make it past qc. I have recently seen a Kenner US 3 pack with the blister/ figures sealed upside down. There are many other examples I have seen too.

Chris

 

[BadMotivator]

There are some examples of MOC's with the bubbles sealed upside down, in this case hammerhead PBP...

http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=77860

But if you wanted to buy it, it would cost you a lot more than a regular hammerhead on ROTJ card right?
Why would Authur sell the whole batch to Jason? He wouldn't. He'd trickle them out over time.

I suppose you could argue that in the late eighties no one gave a toss about errors the way they do now and any error cards would have been worthless on the collector market. But I can't believe someone who was a seasoned toy dealer, who recognised the value of buying up literally tons of unused stock, would ever think that factory error cards would have no future value.

 

[jimbody1]

I've got to say ive had an upside down bubble hoth stormie, it looked like it was deliberately put on that way as the figure would've been to big to go in the correct way up. Lets face it they're not all that common I would think there would be more about if what has been said is correct.
I still can't believe people are taking this **** in! There are three people everyone should stay away from IMHO Billy boy Rodgers, John Walsh and Jason joiner. Hands up if you would take the other two at their word!

 

[BadMotivator]

Although, thinking about it, I'm contradicting myself. Even if he'd made the upside down cards himself, he's still recognise the value of factory errors, he wouldn't sell them.

Oh I don't know!!

 

[Grant_C]

250 million figure, there will be some factory faults that slip through.

 

[BadMotivator]

I've got to say ive had an upside down bubble hoth stormie, it looked like it was deliberately put on that way as the figure would've been to big to go in the correct way up.

Yeah, I'm saying it was deliberately put on, but by someone working in a factory that didn't know what they were doing, they thought they were doing it right.

Listen, I'm not saying what I've outlined is what happened, I don't know anything about anyone mentioned in this thread. I'm jus saying that its the most likely scenario in my opinion. And I'm sure someone will come along in a minute and blow my theroy out of the water with some actual facts (something which my opinion is totally lacking )

 

[Richard_H]

Again more good points made. My mind isn't made up either way as there are still too many he said she said type comments. It'll certainly be interesting to see one of the golden oldies at a UK con in future.

 

[ace]

So are you saying that its easy to seal a blister pack and make it factory standard faultless and undetectable? The crap you're referring to on the market place is usually quite obvious no? Certainly detectable by AFA?

Yes I am. In a factory that does it all the time it wouldn't even be something they'd think about. Once they had the tooling made and the machine set up they could just chock them out one after another perfect every time. If if there were any dodgy looking ones, well there's thousands more, just chuck it.

ok lets say this is all speculation but lets look at this aspect

i agree it dose not take much work to find a company that dose packaging to pay them to run something like these figures through there plant , its not even a small amount 25,000 items ?

even if you just wanted to run some of them say 2000 items ? you would have to prep them ready for the packing company to run them but any company that dose this would run them for no more than £2000 for x2000 and that would be good money for packing company for this work when you see products with vacuum formed packaging with the finished product retailing for no more than £1and thats for the complete product in the 1000s of £1 shops around the country.

the figures its self is the costly part followed by the design work for the packaging then the printing then the bubble , but as all these items were on the list of items included for sale so all that was needed was to put them together and i think that could not cost more then £1 now and back then it would have been maybe 20p tops

as i say these are just thoughts

jason

 

[ace]

i would like to also point out that figures on the wrong cards really did not have a value back then and if they were rare figures or weapon on mismatch figure then most dealers would often just take the figure off the card and sell it lose .

so deliberately putting a figure on the wrong card would have been a wast back then, and as you saw in my post when i saw some of the Hoth troopers were not packaged well it was a disappointment to me and it made it harder for me to sell them back then.

so know one would have dose this to figures deliberately

as to Arthur putting them on the cards i do not know why he would have bothered ? he was buying them in and turning them around , he was not into plastic that much he liked older stuff like tin Robots etc so buying in these figures and then turning them around making some good money on them so he could buy a nice robot was more his stile .

just some thoughts and to show that i felt Arthur was a good by and a good dealer and a collector also .

jason

 

[nottscoupe]

All,

This thread is one amazing read. I have over 20 years collecting experience and only ever read these boards, but I have met some of you at toy fairs. Edd some of my last tri logos was off you at memorabilia a few years back. I have also used to be a customer of Hoth Rebel (Nick) but I no longer collect as I have everything I need.

I find it fascinating that deals that happened over 20 years ago and items from these deals are in my collection.

I have purchased off both Jason & Toni and all the MOC I have ever had off both are 100% fine. I also have one of Jasons Hoth Troopers which has an upside down bubble. It came from Off world in the late 1990s.

I only have 45bk Palitoys from Toni and they have different bubbles on them. The double stems all have the bubbling mentioned on them. Again all seems legit.

My view is even if they have not been sealed at the palitoy factory I can still appreciate them for what childhood hood memories they bring back. I have not got any german 45backs but now actually want one, they are clearly a unique piece which is from the palitoy factory but never offered for sale to the public. Could they be classed as mass produced prototypes?

I also believe the grey hoth trooper may be legit, a local collector to me came across some in the early 90s at a car boot sale in cossal. This was when vintage was still in some shops, why would someone fake them at that time?
Jason - Your showmaster shows are great, enjoyed meeting BDW a few weeks ago. Thank you

 

[tiefighterboy]

I'd just like to chime in here to say that its not difficult or expensive to seal a blister pack. The evidence is all around you, just look in your local post office or pound shop and look at all the crap that's sold for pence in blister packs. Yes the machines are expensive but the tooling is not. And for those saying it wouldn't be cost effective I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. Even in the eighties it would have been an absolute no brainer to get these cards sealed regardless of initial outlay. And if you got an exisitng packaging company to do it, then you'd only be paying for the tooling and labour which would be a minimal outlay. With the massive volume of cards we're talking about anyone buying them would have known it would take years and years to trickle them out, probably longer than they're likely to be alive! Over that time they could make the initial outlay back thousands of times.

I'm not saying Toni did seal up the cards, but let's not pretend that it would be a difficult or costly thing to do.

Nothing is cheap about tooling and design..then or now. Seting up, housing, design and actually making these look 100% legit would not be easy or cost the price of a pack of bubble gum.

Too add to this established packaging companies work on contracts. They tend not to be job shops that some slob can walk into and request you do a one time run for them. There has to be value and longevity in that for them.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Aussiejames on imperial gunnery spotted this on ebay:-

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Star-Wars-General-Mills-ESB-German-card-White-Bespin-Guard-MOC-45-back-/111212878348?pt=UK_Toys_Creative_Educational_RL&hash=item19e4cdda0c&nma=true&si=fPc89wXJokIE5syIU09Pgxz%252BFwE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This is the first card type that was produced with the english text on the back.

The missing price sticker and back story it was bought by a UK collector is interesting. It means that some of the original
cards were assembled in the factory and made it onto the market at least in the UK, though normally they had a palitoy sticker
placed over the lower half of the card replacing the german text.

This gives credence to the theory that at least some of the original cards with english text on the back were fully assembled in the
palitoy factory and made it to market, at least in the UK. It's odd that German cards without the palitoy sticker on the back would
have been sold in the UK though.



Jason

 

[tiefighterboy]

I have made up my mind after much reading, thinking and discussion with a few of my close friends. The whole story of sealing these in the 90's is bullshit.

 

[BadMotivator]

I'd just like to chime in here to say that its not difficult or expensive to seal a blister pack. The evidence is all around you, just look in your local post office or pound shop and look at all the crap that's sold for pence in blister packs. Yes the machines are expensive but the tooling is not. And for those saying it wouldn't be cost effective I'm sorry but that is ridiculous. Even in the eighties it would have been an absolute no brainer to get these cards sealed regardless of initial outlay. And if you got an exisitng packaging company to do it, then you'd only be paying for the tooling and labour which would be a minimal outlay. With the massive volume of cards we're talking about anyone buying them would have known it would take years and years to trickle them out, probably longer than they're likely to be alive! Over that time they could make the initial outlay back thousands of times.

I'm not saying Toni did seal up the cards, but let's not pretend that it would be a difficult or costly thing to do.

Nothing is cheap about tooling and design..then or now. Seting up, housing, design and actually making these look 100% legit would not be easy or cost the price of a pack of bubble gum.

Too add to this established packaging companies work on contracts. They tend not to be job shops that some slob can walk into and request you do a one time run for them. There has to be value and longevity in that for them.

I know nothing about prices back in the 80s but nowadays I don't think it's as expensive as you think:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1122779927/Blister_Pack_Sealing_Machine.html
Bottom end of the market obviously but $600 for the machine isn't a lot.
And tooling isn't hard to get made. Its just a block of steel after all

 

[itfciain]

Wow, I go away for a couple of days and this tread grow by 10 pages

I am still not sure what to think, but respect all of the guys with far more knowledge than me for their input. It would be nice to see some more posts from Toni on this matter and I think that JJ puts some interesting things forward that only Toni can really counter.