Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Grant_C]

This accusation could cause thousands and thousands of pounds of damage.

The only way to really move forward is to issue proceedings and take it to a court.

If the case is dropped immediately and comments withdrawn, you can decide that there was little to no case.

If not then evidence would have to be brought forward.

:?

 

[mr_palitoy]

any pin holes Jason?

Should be the double-stemmed 21B if any, the two on the top of my Stormtrooper are not regularly spaced and seem to be a result of sealing.

Need to go and find it. Give me 10 mins or so...



Jason

No pin holes. Have had a good look at the card, bubble and seal. Looks good to me.



Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Looked at mine.

All twin stem- no holes.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Once again...this for me hinges all on the heat sealing, tooling aspect. I came from manufacturing as an engineer in injection molding. The set up, planning, time and investment to do this would be expensive and time consuming. It would have been even harder back then with the older technology in the layout and planning phases. Back then these figures were not even remotely worth anytype of investment in the amount that this would have cost someone to have this accomplished. I am not saying this would have been impossible...but you would have had to have been out of your mind to have considered this was a worthy investment back then. Back then there were very few collectors and many people still viewed star wars toys as modern factory overstock and thus laughed at us as we were collecting worthless childs toys and star wars was a dead franchise.

BTW...this is the most intelligent post I have made in over a year. ..................I would quit panicking guys.

 

[jimbody1]

+1 to that, while your all panicking you all seem to forget the lack of a small thing called proof. Regardless of what this guy is saying there's nothing that's NOTHING to prove he's not yanking your chains. I'm sure your all old and smart enough to look and determine for yourselves if your stuff is original.

 

[Vernon]

An interesting read.
Here's my upside down Hoth Trooper.
No pin holes - but it does have an '03' bubble.

This card has always look off to me & I have no idea how it got through QC.

 

[**Delboy75**]

.

 

[Richard_H]

Some great posts here.

Ok then we've established that some collectors have great contacts. I used to work for the MOD and know a little about heat seals, although I didn't use them often.

My question is, how difficult would it be to get ahold of the actual heat sealer from the Palitoy factory? When we replaced the machines we often sold them off to scrap men and other smaller businesses for usually little money as the space was more important.

 

[jimbody1]

I dare say it wouldn't be hard at all although the palitoy and gm cards had several bubble types so you would need all the tool sets for double/single bubbles as well as the variations of types eg the '03' marks on the seals etc. It all sounds a bit implausible tbh especially as Toni has all types and not just 100% mint cards as ive had c8's off him before today as well as yellow bubbles and ones with dings etc. It seems that jj is speading **** to gain himself favour with the community as without proof that'ss all it is.

 

[**Delboy75**]

I can confirm that Toni bought 1000's of CARDED items from this Arthur fella. Everything else (cardbacks) is just hearsay and has never been confirmed.

Only Toni and Arthur can confirm is these even exist.

Jason was, maybe still is mega jealous of missing out on this deal.

 

[Richard_H]

I can confirm that Toni bought 1000's of CARDED items from this Arthur fella.

How? This is in itself vague and could be heresay.

And where are the ones who've mentioned this in the past. This is a prime opportunity to come forward.

 

[jimbody1]

I can confirm that Toni bought 1000's of CARDED items from this Arthur fella.

How? This is in itself vague and could be heresay.

And where are the ones who've mentioned this in the past. This is a prime opportunity to come forward.

i think this is the reply to del from jim stevenson

 

[spoons]

Once again...this for me hinges all on the heat sealing, tooling aspect. I came from manufacturing as an engineer in injection molding. The set up, planning, time and investment to do this would be expensive and time consuming. It would have been even harder back then with the older technology in the layout and planning phases. Back then these figures were not even remotely worth anytype of investment in the amount that this would have cost someone to have this accomplished. I am not saying this would have been impossible...but you would have had to have been out of your mind to have considered this was a worthy investment back then. Back then there were very few collectors and many people still viewed star wars toys as modern factory overstock and thus laughed at us as we were collecting worthless childs toys and star wars was a dead franchise.

BTW...this is the most intelligent post I have made in over a year. ..................I would quit panicking guys.

You make a lot of sense Todd, but I'm still wary

 

[Richard_H]

I can confirm that Toni bought 1000's of CARDED items from this Arthur fella.

How? This is in itself vague and could be heresay.

And where are the ones who've mentioned this in the past. This is a prime opportunity to come forward.

i think this is the reply to del from jim stevenson

Ah. That makes more sense.

But still it's vague from Jim. How? I'd ask the same question if anyone came online and said the same for JJ. This is a big thing and that's all that can be said?

 

[**Delboy75**]

I do not know Jim.
But I know for a fact if he was into forums etc he would back up that Toni definately bought mocs from Arthur.

Still does not mean Jason is lying about the card backs etc it just made me feel better knowing Toni definately had 1000's of genuine mocs.
Maybe someone In the know could ring Jim direct and ask him.

 

[edd_jedi]

Do you guys seriously expect it get specific answers on this subject? If you had a stash of mint MOCs would you be willing to say what you have, who you got it from and how much it all cost!? Of course not. As interesting as this all is, selling these toys is a business for Toni and many other people. They have every right to protect their investment.

 

[jimbody1]

probably the same way we all buy stuff, we hear and seek it out, we check then buy. having met, talked and bought from jim stevenson myself i would happily take HIS word over anyone else ive ever dealt with.

 

[Richard_H]

Do you guys seriously expect it get specific answers on this subject? If you had a stash of mint MOCs would you be willing to say what you have, who you got it from and how much it all cost!? Of course not. As interesting as this all is, selling these toys is a business for Toni and many other people. They have every right to protect their investment.

I would if the authenticity was in doubt. However, at the moment I don't think this is the case until more evidence comes forward.

 

[x-pack]

Some great posts here.

Ok then we've established that some collectors have great contacts. I used to work for the MOD and know a little about heat seals, although I didn't use them often.

My question is, how difficult would it be to get ahold of the actual heat sealer from the Palitoy factory? When we replaced the machines we often sold them off to scrap men and other smaller businesses for usually little money as the space was more important.

Many years ago I worked in factory clearance and demolition. We emptied a few places that had gone down the pan, mainly pottery or powder coating businesses in the north. Our company would pay a fixed price for contents including powder coating lines and general factory equipment. What it really meant though was the pick of anything in the factory. We had allsorts of goodies :wink:

Presumably Kenner or Palitoy did the same and sold off factory contents to the highest bidder. I don't know what one of these presses would look like or how big they are, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could have picked this equipment up for a few hundred quid. They would be bugger all use to anyone else as the factory tooling would have a specific purpose. However, I suspect machinery of this type would require more than your average household voltage supply. So you probably wouldn't be running it in your garage...

 

[**Delboy75**]

I'm dropping no names into this it's up to them if they want to post but ask any of the old school dealers who are still around what they think of Toni's stuff and they will all say its legit.
Then ask them what they think of Jason.

Honestly, For me it's all ********.

 

[Lafos]

Pin sized holes around the bubble ?!
None of my GM 45 backs have any pins around the bubble.
Could you provide more detailed pics of the pins of the AFA Stormie ?

- Thorsten -

 

[spoons]

Pin sized holes around the bubble ?!
None of my GM 45 backs have any pins around the bubble.
Could you provide more detailed pics of the pins of the AFA Stormie ?

- Thorsten -

top two holes are fairly clear on this pic, the side holes can be seen if you look hard enough and a shadow between the double-stem shows the base one

 

[Joe]

Not that I am particularly fond of Todd DeMartino (and he's not exactly my biggest fan either), I did find this interesting quote from him in an old RS thread:

Jason Joiner looked me in the eye back in the early 90's at FX in Orlando and Toyrific in NY and said that he made them among other things (proto R2, props, etc.).

He was referring to the Grey Limbed Snowtroopers.

Read into that what you will, I find it both telling and a bit confusing tbh. Todd seems to have known that Joiner was selling fakes in the 90's at US conventions yet he still went ahead and bought those Yak Mailers from him..hmm very strange (he still believes those Yak baggies/mailers are real yet seems adamant that everything else Jason had for sale was fake).

 

[tiefighterboy]

I highly doubt that someone bought all the tooling from Palitoy at an auction...then became friends with Toni.....and had the equipment to heat seal these. It is only common sense.


Maybe Arthur was a Janitor at the Palitoy factory.......bought all the machinery....all the tooling...all the cards...all the bubbles......sold them Toni........and Toni had the foresight to know how valuable this would be decades later and invest tons of cash.........I think holding up a bank would make more ******* sense.

I could make stories up about this all day long...........Arthur goes to the Palitoy Dump...meetd Auggie and they begin to dig. They unearth the jigs and fixtures from Palitoy....and....................they meet Toni and Jason.......Toni buys all this stuff and......................Nevermind. :lol:

 

[Grant_C]

Nevermind.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Nevermind.

Exactly.

 

[x-pack]

I know it's far fetched, but then so is somebody just happening to come across 25,000 unused cards and bubbles :? I find that harder to believe than somebody getting hold of factory equipment such as this http://www.royalinkandmachinery.com/blister-packing-machine.htm

I don't know much about either of these people - Toni or Jason. Probably in the same boat as most people who just don't know what to believe.

 

[Grant_C]

Neither Jason or Toni has mentioned heavy duty machinery. Lets not get side tracked.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Neither Jason or Toni has mentioned heavy duty machinery. Lets not get side tracked.

I doubt super glue or cum would pass the inspection test. :lol:

 

[Caswellbot]

Hi guys, I commented earlier in the thread based on my experiences. I will try to flesh it out a little bit more until I can get in touch with someone. I would hasten to add that I am completely impartial in this whole event and can only go on what I have been "told." I would also like to add that I have never met Jason Joiner but am obviously aware of him. I have, however met Toni a number of times and he has always been spot on in conversations. Very friendly guy.

So here goes. I was told by an old school UK collector/ dealer a number of years back (who's name I do know but will not reveal as I don't think it is right before I know I can get in touch with him) that Toni bought a large number of unused cards and bubbles and spent time looking for mint figures to buy to put on the cards. He claimed to have sold mint figures to Toni suspecting that they were going to be used specifically for this purpose. I would not go as far as to say that the person who told me this is a "friend" but I have dealt with him several times and from my perspective he has/ had no reason to lie to me. He has always been good to me. Of course it is possible that he himself was misinformed.

I was however also told yesterday by another source that Jim Stevenson had recalled that Toni had bought a load of stuff including some unused cardbacks. (No mention of bubbles.) I do not want to inundate Jim with messages/ phone calls as I know he has been contacted already about this matter but next time I see him I will ask him if he could add any more to what he told my friend.

So why haven't I said something earlier about this? Well because we are dealing with second hand information that dates back many years. I am not going to come on the boards and start slinging accusations or relaying 2nd hand information of this magintude off the cuff without good reason. (I.E. now) I do not want to get embroiled in the debate but I think the information I have provided is at least of some use.

Edd is right. Only the people involved really know and I am not one of them. I am no expert on tooling and what would be required to make this possible so will not comment. Perhaps Todd or one or two other guys might be able to shed some more light on just how difficult/ expensive it might be to create what is necessary to carry out the process? Are we talking a few thousand £'s or tens of thousands or what??

I believe that people will not necessarily get the answers/ proof that will be necessary to get complete closure on this but I may be wrong. I do however hope that this thread ends amicably. I have owned cards that I suspect to have been from Toytoni in the past although I have not bought from him directly my self and I have looked at them closely. If they were not "factory sealed" then I didn't/ couldn't tell the difference.

Chris.