Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[ace]

Fantastic thread guys. Potentially one that changes things for a lot of people. Even though I was collecting in the early 90's I did not know this information.

Thanks for getting back to us Jason (Joiner) and proving that it really is you :wink:

hay its me no one else can come back with so many boring stories you what till some of you meet me i worst i have a good memory to things that happen as i am dyslexic so do not right much down so i just learnt to remember deals and people and things that happened , its why i started to intervene star wars cast members and track down people , so i guess it has a use being dyslexic

its funny the last time i had to go thought anything like this it was when i went on some idlelitic crusade to fine all the stormtroop guests around 3 years ago , i did my due diligence and got someone to talked to each and every one and ask some questions only someone in the costume would now or remember as there has been and still are people that are FAKE guests , yes there are people passing them self off as a guest from the films and they are not in them its true , anyway i found the guys and went through them all and we announced them as guests and then it happened same old trash , Jason dose not know his stuff these could be anybody i bet its his Dad pretending to be a stormtrooper , then when the fans met these guys the stories they told us and the facts they new told everyone these are the class of 1976 the original garrison , it was worth dealing with the nay sayers to bring these guys to the show as the guests loved talking to the fans as i think there wife's were a bit sick of the old storeys and fresh ears was grate for them , sadly we have lost a few but we have found one or two also so its interesting , i care and thats why i looked for them and got them to a show and i wanted my trooper helmet signed by then for me so thats why i worked back then with Graham who is a nice guy that is insane on collecting autographs , together we made it happen see i just cannot stop talking

j

 

[Joseph_Y]

IF Jasons accusations of Toy Toni prove to be correct, the impact on the non US MOC portion of the hobby will be devastating. As someone that has bought stuff from Toni in the past,and who cares about the longevity of the hobby I certainly hope that it's not true. IF non factory sealed items such as what Jason is accusing Tony of having done, can make it thru AFA. That shoud put their entire "system" into question. Just how tainted is the hobby with these 25,000 figures are a lot to keep track of, and digest into the hobby w.o some huge blowback if they all prove to be fakes.

J

 

[Hothrebel]

I don't think Jason is accusing anyone of anything,he is just relaying facts about what happened with a particular deal done over 20 years ago ,more collectors were aware of this than just Jason.the carded figures are not reseals or recards,reseal means taken off the card and then resealed and recarded would imply some sort of reproduction,the figures ,cards and bubbles aren't fake,I have know of Jason on the collecting and dealing circuit for 25 years and have heard all the stories but in this I believe him to be correct

 

[ace]

IF Jasons accusations of Toy Toni prove to be correct, the impact on the non US MOC portion of the hobby will be devastating. As someone that has bought stuff from Toni in the past,and who cares about the longevity of the hobby I certainly hope that it's not true. IF non factory sealed items such as what Jason is accusing Tony of having done, can make it thru AFA. That shoud put their entire "system" into question. Just how tainted is the hobby with these 25,000 figures are a lot to keep track of, and digest into the hobby w.o some huge blowback if they all prove to be fakes.

J

hi Joseph_Y

can i say its not just now me that is saying about this as others have come forward t report they have herd thing about this for many years so i may of inadvertaly kicked of the subject but its not just me that knows about this i just wanted to clear that one up ,

and one other thing Joseph in your post you say these prove to be fakes ? understand what you are trying to say, but they are not fakes are they, they are not carded at the time of manufacture agreed and there is a lot more of them than i think the collators there there was in that hall and that will make a difference to a price of something if there is a lot of something but these are not fakes ?


thinking about this a bit more in fact what he says they are if i remember from his old ad in model mart it described them as such things as Han Solo ESB MOC so he clams the figure is mint on card ? and that is what it is ?

i know what everyone is saying but i just wanted to put that out there.

jason

 

[Grant_C]

thinking about this a bit more in fact what he says they are if i remember from his old ad in model mart it described them as such things as Han Solo ESB MOC so he clams the figure is mint on card ? and that is what it is ?

jason

No, that's a widely acknowledged term in the collecting community that he would be aware of and he would be deceiving buyers. That would not stand up in a court room.

A fake rolex watch, is a watch with rolex on it. Its not a rolex watch.

 

[paulcalf]

In fairness to ACE, I don't think he was actually making accusations about toy toni or trying to stir **** up.

I asked ace to share some stories of big hauls and dates from back in the day, because I've always been interested in where this MOC stuff comes from.

Hothrebel and ace started discussing stories from 'back in the day' and then this 'revelation' sort of came out. I don't think this forum should stir it up between OG collectors, I don't think that is anyone's intention, but a few posts have perhaps given the impression that Ace is calling toni a bitch (my words).

Just so people don't think I've got any axe to grind or am taking sides, i'm not. I'm a childhood collector, topping up a few bits, I don't own any MOC and have no vested interests.

The next thing on my list is a 1970's car sticker for my camper van. If anyone comes across anything please let me know. I suppose I am looking for a something that will look like it has been on the van since the 70's, rather than just a crisp undated but Vintage Star Wars sticker. A kind member pointed me in the direction of a vintage sticker, but it would not have looked old when i stuck it on the van. Apologies for the shameless plug, but this thread seems to be generating much interest and i don't want to miss an opportunity, especially with all these OG collectors visiting the thread!

IF Jasons accusations of Toy Toni prove to be correct, the impact on the non US MOC portion of the hobby will be devastating. As someone that has bought stuff from Toni in the past,and who cares about the longevity of the hobby I certainly hope that it's not true. IF non factory sealed items such as what Jason is accusing Tony of having done, can make it thru AFA. That shoud put their entire "system" into question. Just how tainted is the hobby with these 25,000 figures are a lot to keep track of, and digest into the hobby w.o some huge blowback if they all prove to be fakes.

J

 

[x-pack]

thinking about this a bit more in fact what he says they are if i remember from his old ad in model mart it described them as such things as Han Solo ESB MOC so he clams the figure is mint on card ? and that is what it is ?

jason

No, that's a widely acknowledged term in the collecting community that he would be aware of and he would be deceiving buyers. That would not stand up in a court room.

A fake rolex watch, is a watch with rolex on it. Its not a rolex watch.

Totally agree with you. The irony in this case is that the fakes are made from genuine items ...if what we're hearing is correct. Did someone say there were 2,500 or was it 25,000? :shock:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Received this email reply from Toni just now:-

"hi yes it comes as news to me also Ill check out the post later As you may know ive been selling carded figures for the last 25 years many have been graded by AFA/UKG so it somewhat bizarre that he should come up with this nonsense in 2013 ! thanks toni"

Jason

 

[Joseph_Y]

To those of us that collect or have collected carded non US figures, it is a big deal. Orig card, orig bubble, orig figure, but if it's not an original factory seal, then it's not authentic in my eyes and likely in the eyes of most in the hobby. No gray area there really. It's either an original factory sealed MOC or it isn't. It's a BIG wrong doing to misrepresent them as real MOC's if the seal was applied after the fact. So by mentioning it, Jason is, perhaps inadvertently, accusing Toni of selling fake sealed figures. I for one hope that it's not the case, but we'll wait til Toni chimes in.

J

 

[ace]

I don't think Jason is accusing anyone of anything,he is just relaying facts about what happened with a particular deal done over 20 years ago ,more collectors were aware of this than just Jason.the carded figures are not reseals or recards,reseal means taken off the card and then resealed and recarded would imply some sort of reproduction,the figures ,cards and bubbles aren't fake,I have know of Jason on the collecting and dealing circuit for 25 years and have heard all the stories but in this I believe him to be correct

thank you Hothrebel, that was what i was trying to say also .

25 years is a long time , and the some of the storeys are true but only the ones about being a bit of a bustard when it came to wanting something for the collection and out bidding them i have to say looking back on it i was a bit of a monster , but the people around me were no different some are still here to day still collecting but we have all grown older and have mellowed out witch is a good thing but i still see it in some of the collators i see at the shows today a fire to gather and horde stuff, anyway your all safe now i have grown up and do not feel the need to own everything anymore ;-)

my name is jason and i am a SSSStar Wars collector

i got over wanting everything in one day, the day i took possession of Gary Kurtz collection,from 1983 to 1993 i was a busy boy but from 1993 things started to slow down for me and i used to only get around 600 to 1000 items a year by that time , when Garys stuff turned up here and i looked at it i was done , in one day i gained over 200,000 items that i did not own and it took 3 months to find a home for i all 75 tons of stuff , incredible stuff it was like king tuts tomb for a Star Wars fan , i was done , i did not need to own everything and i started to just relax and enjoy what i had , which was a good thing really as i did lose a chunk of really cool stuff to someone that i was collecting with and we co owned some stuff but thats life you cannot take it with you just enjoy it when it around you


anyway hi j

 

[itfciain]

This thread has the power to match and beat the Princess Leia one - makes for very interesting reading, and as someone that has a huge amount of MOCs then I will be interested to hear all sides of the story

 

[edd_jedi]

Fascinating stuff - thanks for joining and sharing your insight Jason.

The 'revelations' are certainly raising a few questions, but I suggest people take a quick step back and consider a few things before they get the pitch forks out.

1) Whatever your opinion of them (good or bad) AFA are just a few people, not some god-like entity. They have made mistakes and will make more mistakes. And when you buy something graded by them, all you are buying is a personal opinion, NOT a guarantee. Wether grading Toni's figures is a mistake or not takes me on to point 2.

2) If Toni's figures are 'real' or not is a can of worms. What does real even mean? It's a genuine cardback, bubble and figure, so who cares wether it was assembled in 1980 or 1990? There is no way of proving when any of our MOCs were actually made, I know we'd all like to think that we own some kind of mystic 1970s air trapped in the bubbles or something, but the fact is just like a classic car these toys are just a few parts slapped together so nobody can be 100% sure when that was done without a time machine.

3) Value - remember that none of this stuff actually has any real value, much like cash. It is just plastic and cardboard. The only reason people pay silly money for it is because they have been convinced there is a value attached to it. Revelations like this may affect value, but again none of this stuff we collect really has any 'value' anyway other than the hype our community creates.

 

[x-pack]

i got over wanting everything in one day, the day i took possession of Gary Kurtz collection,from 1983 to 1993 i was a busy boy but from 1993 things started to slow down for me and i used to only get around 600 to 1000 items a year by that time , when Garys stuff turned up here and i looked at it i was done , in one day i gained over 200,000 items that i did not own and it took 3 months to find a home for i all 75 tons of stuff , incredible stuff it was like king tuts tomb for a Star Wars fan , i was done , i did not need to own everything and i started to just relax and enjoy what i had , which was a good thing really as i did lose a chunk of really cool stuff to someone that i was collecting with and we co owned some stuff but thats life you cannot take it with you just enjoy it when it around you


anyway hi j

I kind of like how you put this Jason. While I can't imagine having that feeling with regards to Star Wars I can in other aspects of life. Taking charge of a collection that size must, as you say, have been like Howard Carter opening King Tut's tomb. After that a contented feeling 8)

I'm sure a lot will agree that despite some initial skepticism and some ongoing points to clear up it's good to have you on here. This is the best Star Wars collectors forum with a huge collective mass of information. Your knowledge just makes it all the richer.

 

[ace]

i got over wanting everything in one day, the day i took possession of Gary Kurtz collection,from 1983 to 1993 i was a busy boy but from 1993 things started to slow down for me and i used to only get around 600 to 1000 items a year by that time , when Garys stuff turned up here and i looked at it i was done , in one day i gained over 200,000 items that i did not own and it took 3 months to find a home for i all 75 tons of stuff , incredible stuff it was like king tuts tomb for a Star Wars fan , i was done , i did not need to own everything and i started to just relax and enjoy what i had , which was a good thing really as i did lose a chunk of really cool stuff to someone that i was collecting with and we co owned some stuff but thats life you cannot take it with you just enjoy it when it around you


anyway hi j

I kind of like how you put this Jason. While I can't imagine having that feeling with regards to Star Wars I can in other aspects of life. Taking charge of a collection that size must, as you say, have been like Howard Carter opening King Tut's tomb. After that a contented feeling 8)

I'm sure a lot will agree that despite some initial skepticism and some ongoing points to clear up it's good to have you on here. This is the best Star Wars collectors forum with a huge collective mass of information. Your knowledge just makes it all the richer.

hi x-pack


if i can share some of my knolage with others thats great its kept it from beign forgotten , its why i interviewed 100s of cast and crew from the films that info was being lost

anyway glad someone finds my travels of interest ? maybe there is a book here ?

jason

 

[ace]

one other thing with history it helps to be a bit of a hoarder

and thats me , i have kept so many things that others would have thrown away , i have all my notes and deal points from the last 25 years in boxes and my phone books likes like its 100 year old document as i have only added to is and have never taken out numbers out of it so i have say Jeff bass his phone number from back in the 80s when he still lived with his parents all useless stuff but its cool to look though

i have every model mart going back to around 1987 i think ? which is funny looking back at the old prices.

and every flyer to every event i went to so i have lots of crap but now and again its very useful , its not important history but it is collector history .

its odd that history just around the time of emails seems to have been lost , paperwork that used to build up and get kept is not gone , your computers memory dies and thats it lots of unique stuff is gone on emails etc.

history is not being lost faster than ever before its something to think about ?

jason

 

[jimbody1]

This all smells a bit funny to me, im not drawing any conclusions but there are still those that remember jasons rep from days past.

 

[theslider]

Fascinating stuff - thanks for joining and sharing your insight Jason.

The 'revelations' are certainly raising a few questions, but I suggest people take a quick step back and consider a few things before they get the pitch forks out.

1) Whatever your opinion of them (good or bad) AFA are just a few people, not some god-like entity. They have made mistakes and will make more mistakes. And when you buy something graded by them, all you are buying is a personal opinion, NOT a guarantee. Wether grading Toni's figures is a mistake or not takes me on to point 2.

2) If Toni's figures are 'real' or not is a can of worms. What does real even mean? It's a genuine cardback, bubble and figure, so who cares wether it was assembled in 1980 or 1990? There is no way of proving when any of our MOCs were actually made, I know we'd all like to think that we own some kind of mystic 1970s air trapped in the bubbles or something, but the fact is just like a classic car these toys are just a few parts slapped together so nobody can be 100% sure when that was done without a time machine.

3) Value - remember that none of this stuff actually has any real value, much like cash. It is just plastic and cardboard. The only reason people pay silly money for it is because they have been convinced there is a value attached to it. Revelations like this may affect value, but again none of this stuff we collect really has any 'value' anyway other than the hype our community creates.

Perfectly said Edd, especially with your first point.

Jason (J) I thought you were older than 43! :lol:

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/collecting-star-wars-in-their-eyes-1274685.html

 

[JuniorChubb]

Wow this thread has caught fire since last night.

There is a hell of a lot to take in...

 

[Joe]

Fascinating stuff - thanks for joining and sharing your insight Jason.

The 'revelations' are certainly raising a few questions, but I suggest people take a quick step back and consider a few things before they get the pitch forks out.

1) Whatever your opinion of them (good or bad) AFA are just a few people, not some god-like entity. They have made mistakes and will make more mistakes. And when you buy something graded by them, all you are buying is a personal opinion, NOT a guarantee. Wether grading Toni's figures is a mistake or not takes me on to point 2.

2) If Toni's figures are 'real' or not is a can of worms. What does real even mean? It's a genuine cardback, bubble and figure, so who cares wether it was assembled in 1980 or 1990? There is no way of proving when any of our MOCs were actually made, I know we'd all like to think that we own some kind of mystic 1970s air trapped in the bubbles or something, but the fact is just like a classic car these toys are just a few parts slapped together so nobody can be 100% sure when that was done without a time machine.

3) Value - remember that none of this stuff actually has any real value, much like cash. It is just plastic and cardboard. The only reason people pay silly money for it is because they have been convinced there is a value attached to it. Revelations like this may affect value, but again none of this stuff we collect really has any 'value' anyway other than the hype our community creates.

Not sure I totally agree with this one Edd.

There is no doubt in my mind that it it would matter if someone had been sealing up figures in the 90's themselves and selling them as factory sealed.

With that said, you probably couldn't prove it one way or another..but if it were proven to be true then that would be a massive blow to the hobby and create a real **** storm. Imagine finding out your collection of £200-300 a pop figures that you thought were factory originals were actually knocked up with overstock in some blokes shed about 10 years after they were supposedly produced. I know I wouldn't be impressed.

As for value - Everyone knows that the toys are pretty much worthless to non collectors (which is why our better halves shake their heads at our spending) but we still pay through the nose for them and we do so for various reasons, authenticity is obviously at the forefront and when you think about it, we aren't even spending money on a plastic figure or a piece of card - most of the time we are paying for something that isn't even a physical part of the item and that's the genuine factory seal. Without that you have a loose figure and a cardback/bubble - which don't really add up to much at all.

While that does seem incredibly odd when you think about it, it is what it is and for a collector it makes perfect sense.

I don't know if the story Jason is telling us about Toni is true or not, it seems pretty far fetched..let's see how this pans out!

 

[JuniorChubb]

I'm leaning to your point of view too Joe.

For me this raises questions on...

Bubble card combinations

The actual rarity of certain MOC's

Where the figures came from

'Legit' cards with paint rubbed figures inside them

Using MOC's as a guide to figure/weapon combinations

What else is out there but not 'admitted to' from the same process with different ingredients

and much much more to boot, but especially my ROTJ Palitoy Wally that is the only 'factory sealed' MOC in my collection. It is saddening to think this may have been assembled in the late 90's.