Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[tiefighterboy]

Beautiful pictures you have taken there Grant. :wink:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Looks just like mine, except is hasn't been opened...



jason

 

[Grant_C]

I know no one can give 100%, and i have Jawa MOC's. I looked really hard and it looked legit. What do you think Jason?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Looks sweet.



Jason

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

:shock: Killer Piece 8)

 

[tiefighterboy]

Seal looks 100% legit.

 

[mr_palitoy]

So would the naysayers like to chime in here, or can we wrap this one up?

:lol:

Jason

 

[Joe]

I don't claim to be a Palitoy expert however I will say the pictures look make the figure look "ok", I do just want to say what is on my mind about the sources of the couple known though...

Richard Torres: A number of people I know believe this guy is the UK version of Shaun N...shoddy reseals sold as authentic sealed figures, sending out **** instead of what people have ordered, disappearing with funds after a deal was struck etc etc - Would I trust something from him: No.

Jason Joiner: Arguably has an extremely dodgy past which might not mean that in 2012 he is still a scammer/con artist but his reputation surely has been tainted by fakes and replicas. Would I trust something from him: No.

What bugs me the most about this piece is: Jason J is more than aware of the significance of this piece if real yet he isn't tooting the trumpet of discovery about it, has it in a random star case and occasionally shows it off at shows where no one is allowed to take pictures unless they charm him for a 5 min gander? Surely being "the biggest" Star Wars collector and a UK guy he would have been on the blower at least telling the likes of Jim Stevenson etc what he had found?

I just don't really get it? Surely a discovery like this warrants at least a mention on the grapevine, I mean who here seriously knew Jason Joiner owned an "authentic" Palitoy VCJ?

I don't doubt a Palitoy VCJ is possible and indeed it looks good (even though the picture is of the fig in a star case and not that great) but why does it have to be in the possession of someone with a less than stellar past? These questionable myth like figures never just turn up from simple sellers or people with solid history in this hobby which for me just keeps me guessing!

 

[mr_palitoy]

Collectors with "dodgy" reputations don't just deal in fakes and reseals, they also have a ton of legit stuff pass through their hands. So "dodgy" past does not automatically mean fake in my opinion.



Jason

 

[Grant_C]

What bugs me the most about this piece is: Jason J is more than aware of the significance of this piece if real yet he isn't tooting the trumpet of discovery about it, has it in a random star case and occasionally shows it off at shows where no one is allowed to take pictures unless they charm him for a 5 min gander??

Fair point Joe. I ask him this and he said he was sick of the politics in the star wars community and the name calling and claims.

His words.

 

[mr_palitoy]

We should judge how AFA would judge it. On the merits of the piece rather than who has owned it.



Jason

 

[RebelChris]

Not that this has anything to do with the VCJ, but it's in the same vein. There was some interesting discussion going on this weekend in the autograph section on RS about Elstree Day. It concerned the auction that was going on at the event and more specifically a Harrison Ford autograph.

Basically the autograph looked nothing like anyone had seen from Harrison Ford before. Even "rushed" in-person autographs from him, all look relatively the same. People were saying that given that this piece came from the Kurtz/Joiner archive that it was the only way anyone would consider it real/legit. It just didn't look good. In the end, there was so much question about it that one guy emailed Jason and asked him about it. They pulled the item because it couldn't be verified as being real and Jason was quoted with this:

Spoke to Jason about the piece in question. Turns out it was donated to the Archive a few years back by a friend he trusted, but rather than have any question over it the item has been pulled. Everything else in the auction comes directly from the Archive, no more trusted friends involved. Sorry it took a day or two to deal with this but as I'm sure you can imagine things are a bit busy! Setting up in Stage 7 now

Here is the link to the thread on RS if anyone is interested, with a photo of the Ford autograph. The discussion about the autograph starts around 4/25/2012

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1075721-6/

Again, not saying that the VCJ is fake, but it does make you scratch your head and give it a squint when combined with this information. Also with Jason Joiner's dodgy past it just makes you take a step back. I would love for the Palitoy VCJ to be real, but I'm not ready to crown it just yet.

 

[Joe]

Collectors with "dodgy" reputations don't just deal in fakes and reseals, they also have a ton of legit stuff pass through their hands. So "dodgy" past does not automatically mean fake in my opinion.



Jason

That is very true Jason and really I suppose that is the downside of being "dodgy" and turning up something interesting or rare, who is going to trust you? Even if it is legit. That is why they say reputation is everything, perhaps this is a lesson in trying to be taken seriously when you have been a naughty boy

What bugs me the most about this piece is: Jason J is more than aware of the significance of this piece if real yet he isn't tooting the trumpet of discovery about it, has it in a random star case and occasionally shows it off at shows where no one is allowed to take pictures unless they charm him for a 5 min gander??

Fair point Joe. I ask him this and he said he was sick of the politics in the star wars community and the name calling and claims.

His words.

I can imagine he is, there are plenty of people that would like to stick a boot up his bum (those that he sold dodgy stuff too! lol)

Honestly, I still don't know, I want to believe in it trust me, I really do. Even if it were AFA graded I don't know if I would really be super satisfied - but then who cares if I or others are?

I know I would feel a lot more comfortable however if a sealed one was turned up by someone like Gary or Lee Bullock or any of the other UK guys with perfect track records (not saying you haven't got one Jason lol - just that yours is a reseal!)

 

[Grant_C]

Harrison Ford changed his autograph when he got famous.

But at the same time, its a fair point.

Why would people risk their entire business models for notoriety or a pat on the back?

Space Opera? More like soap opera.

:?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Honestly, I still don't know, I want to believe in it trust me, I really do. Even if it were AFA graded I don't know if I would really be super satisfied - but then who cares if I or others are?

I know I would feel a lot more comfortable however if a sealed one was turned up by someone like Gary or Lee Bullock or any of the other UK guys with perfect track records (not saying you haven't got one Jason lol - just that yours is a reseal!)

Lee Bullock thinks mine is legit, check out his post on rebelscum.

A lot of MOC's have passed through many hands over the years and given the number of collectors who do not get on with or think that other collectors are "dodgy", I'm sure you could cast doubts on many pieces that are in collections out there. Judge the piece, not the owner! I haven't heard a bad word said about the piece and the bubble seal from the pictures posted here or people who saw it in person at the show!



Jason

 

[_Lee_]

I can't be 100% sure here but im convinced this is the very figure put up for sale by that wanker torres years back.the wave in the card rings true to what was said about that example.What no one remembers here is the slgnlficance of the vintage timeline,and how the VCJ on a kenner card was discontinued a while before any figures hit our shores.This is something that people tend to forget.IMHO a resealed/opened card cannot be used as anything in this situation,as it proves nothing.

 

[Grant_C]

Where is the timeline? Where can I get that information?

When was the Top Toys, palitoys released?

Any help on this would be great. :wink:

 

[Christian]

This is the Palitoy VCJ that Richard Torres sold which to me doesn't look like the one at the Elstree exhibition pics. At the time I took this photo this piece (I think it was residing in Newbury when I saw it) the asking price was £6,000.

As I mentioned at the time on RS the seal looked genuine however the original source just scared the hell out of me. I do not know Richard Torres nor have I ever dealt with him but the 'stories' were enough for me to doubt my own eyes hence the advisory watermark.

I went to the collector's house, whose name I cannot remember, to collect a few AFA mocs - why hadn't this piece been inspected by Tom? Who knows.

Cheers,
Christian

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

The one at Elstree doesnt look like that one to me either?

 

[Grant_C]

Cheers Christian.

The card you have is not the same as the one from the event. It's missing the crease (of which could have come later). But the one at the event doesn't have the marks around the punch hole.

It's so difficult to make judgments from photos though.