Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[jay4]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Generally speaking, yes. But you have to also wise-up to the scammers that artificially age items. It would blow your mind what I've seen people do over the years - everything from antiquities to paper ephemera. The rule that if something looks too good, it probably is, has been turned on it's head as a ploy to fool people into believing deliberately worn replicas/reproductions are hundreds of years old, when the aren't even 20 or 30 years old. In the Star Wars hobby, I've seen people cut down recards to appear as though they were original (there's a thread out there for a set of 12 Backs where this was done). People thought, yeah, I could see some poor sap's parents cutting the cards to cram them into a box or case. The reality is the seller was using this as an angle to hide the tells of the recard (punch tab location, typeset used on "Ages..." text, and in more crude cuts, that include the character typeset) to bait someone into believing they were original, and they weren't. We were joking that some ugrader was going to get their just desserts.

yeah anything can be done! but as far as im aware theres no way to age or even slitely yellow tinge or mist up a bubble ? so thats good , just dont go near crystal clear bubbles on said cards ,you could try & age a TT card all you like by even battering and crushing the bubble and card but that bubble will still remain unusually clear and hopefully look out of place on an intentionally aged card giving it away in some cases

 

[_Lee_]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

 

[finestcomics]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Generally speaking, yes. But you have to also wise-up to the scammers that artificially age items. It would blow your mind what I've seen people do over the years - everything from antiquities to paper ephemera. The rule that if something looks too good, it probably is, has been turned on it's head as a ploy to fool people into believing deliberately worn replicas/reproductions are hundreds of years old, when the aren't even 20 or 30 years old. In the Star Wars hobby, I've seen people cut down recards to appear as though they were original (there's a thread out there for a set of 12 Backs where this was done). People thought, yeah, I could see some poor sap's parents cutting the cards to cram them into a box or case. The reality is the seller was using this as an angle to hide the tells of the recard (punch tab location, typeset used on "Ages..." text, and in more crude cuts, that include the character typeset) to bait someone into believing they were original, and they weren't. We were joking that some ugrader was going to get their just desserts.

yeah anything can be done! but as far as im aware theres no way to age or even slitely yellow tinge or mist up a bubble ?

Try putting a clear MOC, AFA/UKG case (even archival) under neon light. You'd be amazed at how quickly this form of lighting causes the plastic or acrylic to yellow.

 

[finestcomics]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

I love price tags myself. I really try to dissuade people from removing them from MOC's because it's essentially stripping away the provenance.

But I really despise the practice of using stickers to hide damage or defects. There's a recent thread on RS about a seller on eBay who was outed for doing this.

Yet another example of how human greed is spoiling collecting preferences for people like myself who like stickers on MOC's, but because of all the price sticker shenanigans, it makes people suspicious that the sticker is there to hide a defect.

Add the new layer of complication with Tonigate and you'll see how this eventually will rear an uglier play with people using price stickers as a way claim they are shop owned and not from Toni.

 

[spoons]

this is an odd one - mint card, with a first issue Han Solo (hex belt buckle) but yellowed bubble.

Toni with yellowing would kind of prove the neon light thought above

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141185909930&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

 

[lee gray]

years ago when i got a carded fett from toni that was not in perfect condition as had a corner crease, I have OCD unfortunately and cant stand creases even if i have a slight corner fold in a page on a book, i will cut the corner so there is no fold.

This is what i did to the fett card, i cut it in a nice curverd shape for my viewing pleasure only so the card had no corner crease, just looked lop sided lol
as someone else mentioned his fett cards dont have corner curves but pointy edges which is strange.

 

[finestcomics]

this is an odd one - mint card, with a first issue Han Solo (hex belt buckle) but yellowed bubble.

Toni with yellowing would kind of prove the neon light thought above

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141185909930&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

See that card freaks me out. If you look at the back of the card (last photo in the listing) you can see an outline of the blister from ink loss. This is different from the kind of indentation of "lifting" from a seal machine, which would curve/bend an outline on the outermost edge of the blister, but wouldn't produce ink loss.

This doesn't appear to be the same kind of defect you would see on a factory card, but rather, what I see is something typical of overexposing the card to heat and the ink loss resulting from peeling away the release sheet. While release sheets are meant to peel away without bonding, they are meant to perform optimally under the right temperature and exposure time. Definitely sticks out as something suspect, but that's just based on anecdotal evidence from seeing how release sheets behave when it gets into contact with ink under sustained heat with pressure (i.e. weight).

 

[jasdev999]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

No i really do not go for mint guitars (even a PRS Dragon!!...but I do take care of my mint guitars)...this is my favorite guitar of all time as it has its story written all over it. It belonged to Rory Gallagher (one of the most hardworking guitarists ever).
http://www.fender.com/news/guitar-world-features-rory-gallagher/
In fact there is a whole industry now where mint guitars are taken and banged around by guitar techs to make them look "roadworn"

Coming back to MOCs... is whitegloves2 another ebay account for Toni? It is full of Trilogo goodies but a lot of suspect palitoys.

Price stickers also age in a nice way ...don't they? I am sure it would be difficult to age the sticker, the card, the bubble at the same time and have them in some sort of a sync...but I guess if someone is making that much of an effort....what do you say...

Really amazed at Lee cutting out the edge of the creased card to have a nice rounded edge.

 

[jedisearcher]

Really amazed at Lee cutting out the edge of the creased card to have a nice rounded edge.

I had to rub my eyes at that one, OCD indeed :shock:

whitegloves has been peddling that **** for weeks now, definitely some TT stuff in there, but I figured it was just someone offloading, rather than toni himself. Could be completely wrong tho :lol:

 

[_Lee_]

I know who white gloves is,but for the life of me i cant remember the name.I dont think its TT.He is probably shark spotting using the leftover evidence aa chumming bait.Jees,some Shark somewhere may be swimming around with some mouldy old cardbacks in his gut....

 

[mr_palitoy]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

No i really do not go for mint guitars (even a PRS Dragon!!...but I do take care of my mint guitars)...this is my favorite guitar of all time as it has its story written all over it. It belonged to Rory Gallagher (one of the most hardworking guitarists ever).
http://www.fender.com/news/guitar-world-features-rory-gallagher/
In fact there is a whole industry now where mint guitars are taken and banged around by guitar techs to make them look "roadworn"

Coming back to MOCs... is whitegloves2 another ebay account for Toni? It is full of Trilogo goodies but a lot of suspect palitoys.

Price stickers also age in a nice way ...don't they? I am sure it would be difficult to age the sticker, the card, the bubble at the same time and have them in some sort of a sync...but I guess if someone is making that much of an effort....what do you say...

Really amazed at Lee cutting out the edge of the creased card to have a nice rounded edge.

whitegloves22 is SWESB on rebelscum and my guide. I had words with him a week or two back about Tonis and he removed his suspected pieces from
ebay and informed sellers on a couple that had just sold. What suspect pieces does he have for sale, I can't see any.

cheers Jason

 

[jasdev999]

"Suspect pieces".

I appreciate that but you are the expert and I can say authority right now with the amount of research you have done on Palitoys (and a great free guide) , and you can spot Toni's from a mile....but for an ordinary collector like me any minty/near mint ROTJ Palitoy in that group (german general mills etc) is a suspect. The only way to resolve this issue is if Toni comes out and gives an answer!!

I am finding it easier to enjoy the hobby if I stick to Kenner, Trilogos etc.....

 

[mr_palitoy]

"Suspect pieces".

I appreciate that but you are the expert and I can say authority right now with the amount of research you have done on Palitoys (and a great free guide) , and you can spot Toni's from a mile....but for an ordinary collector like me any minty/near mint ROTJ Palitoy in that group (german general mills etc) is a suspect. The only way to resolve this issue is if Toni comes out and gives an answer!!

I am finding it easier to enjoy the hobby if I stick to Kenner, Trilogos etc.....

Toni is never going to do that, it would be an admission of guilt which would do himself no favours.

Can understand not wanting to buy palitoys yourself, that's fine.

But you're saying that anyone who sells palitoy cards is selling suspect cards is looking to rip people off?

That is unfair. There are 22 affected figure/card combos out of 555.

And I've tried my best to categorise those on my guide in a manner which is easy to understand and spot.

cheers Jason

 

[jasdev999]

"Suspect pieces".

I appreciate that but you are the expert and I can say authority right now with the amount of research you have done on Palitoys (and a great free guide) , and you can spot Toni's from a mile....but for an ordinary collector like me any minty/near mint ROTJ Palitoy in that group (german general mills etc) is a suspect. The only way to resolve this issue is if Toni comes out and gives an answer!!

I am finding it easier to enjoy the hobby if I stick to Kenner, Trilogos etc.....

Toni is never going to do that, it would be an admission of guilt which would do himself no favours.

Can understand not wanting to buy palitoys yourself, that's fine.

But you're saying that anyone who sells palitoy cards is selling suspect cards is looking to rip people off?

That is unfair. There are 22 affected figure/card combos out of 555.

And I've tried my best to categorise those on my guide in a manner which is easy to understand and spot.

cheers Jason

Dear Jason...I did not mean anyone who sells Palitoys is trying to rip off people...I did not want to come across like that at all.

Lot of ebay sellers are putting disclaimers and links to your website (which is the only bright spot for these affected cards in this whole mess right now) but some are not. All I am saying is even with all this knowledge (thanks to you all) ordinary collectors like me are finding it hard to make sense of it all (AFA/UKG have also not helped...have they?)...I am just giving you a sense of knee jerk reaction on my part (totally misguided I do appreciate).

 

[Grant_C]

All ESB/ROTJ's after 45b's are suspect.

There's no guarantee that the factories followed bubble to card protocol.

Highly likely maybe, but there are no guarantees.

Prices stickers can be added from card backs.

MOCs can be aged if the were sealed decades ago.

The only way to find out is for TT to let us know the sketch.

He's not going to do that without a legal enquiry.

 

[Simply Sci-fi]

The work that is being put into checking and cataloguing suspect Star Wars figures is extremely commendable. It seems like we're going to get a definite answer to which figures are "Toni's." There will always be people who do not understand, do not have the time or cannot be bothered to check the on-line guides. I can imagine a business man or celebrity with cash to spend on Star Wars falling into this category. Also auction houses and dealers might not have time to go to the trouble to individually check each figure against the listings.

It might not be news to people here but according to Kathy Taylor of Vectis Auctions there is a "waffle" or "cross hatch" pattern in the glue which affixes all Star Wars Palitoy figure bubbles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGahuO9jRiE
I took a close look at my Palitoy SW and ESB MOCs and they all have the pattern. I don't actually own any Palitoy ROTJ carded figures to compare (I put everything into collecting all of the Tri-logos and still came up a few short!).

I believe that carded figures are going to absolute gold in years to come, as people with real money begin to want to spend on their childhood memories, if they can have confidence in the authenticity of the items for sale. Star Wars figures are our generation's version of Dinky – more than Dinky. Near perfect MOC Palitoy Star Wars main cast characters could well go into the stratosphere price wise and I'm not kidding. If the "waffle/cross hatch" pattern is not full-proof perhaps there could be another way to visually check carded figures?

Craig.

 

[Palifan]

I'm not sure that Kathy has quite got all her facts straight on the bubble seal as the waffle pattern does seem to appear on the 12/20 backs and ESB but I don't think it's on all the ESB ones or Jedi.

It's good that she has put some information out there for people who have done very little research on VCJ's but again I thought VCJ's have been found with the more blue blaster (not completely sure about that so let me know if that's incorrect ), and it's a shame she didn't mention that the cross hatch texture on the cape is only on one side.

Jump in anyone if any of this isn't right.

Ian

 

[jedisearcher]

Trust me, Kathy's knowledge of what's fake and what's not in sadly lacking. In fact, that comment is bizarre if she actually said it because the auction in October was riddled with cards without the waffle.

Out of interest, do you have that comment from her in writing? :twisted:

 

[finestcomics]

Looks like one of Toni's cards on the shelf
[youtube]CGahuO9jRiE[/youtube]

 

[Captainsolo1978]

My figures just arrived from the UK to NZ.

Inspected my Toni bought ROTJ Luke Farmboy and German Esb Han Solo .

ROTJ Luke
Ok from what I understand I have a very early 1978 era Luke on a Jedi card.
He has brown eyes and eyebrows. The saber is square where it meets the tip and is a lighter yellow colour. I think ROTJ issue Luke Farmboys had BLACK eyes and eyebrows and the saber was a brighter yellow.

Esb German Han
Ok a bit harder. He has the 03 style bubble single stem. Seal is waffle. No English text on back. My Toni Han Bespin has an identical bubble.

I don't think early Luke s would be on Bandolier offer cards !