Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Bramistuta25]

Gave upon this thread a while back but just wanted to tell everyone that I have asked for a full refund from Toni via e-mail on my ESB 45 back General Mills Power Droid as I only bought it 3 months ago and if there is nothing wrong with it then I would think that he will take it back from me!

No reply as yet! :roll:

 

[ace]

just a thought people wanted a name for these figures ?

well there are pre production figures that were made before they were released .

so could the name just be

post production figures ?

figures made after Palitoy closed ?

but then again its not clear to the masses what they in fact are ?

j

 

[Alas-1]

Is it known by Jason Joiner or ANYONE, how Toni Acquired all those Meccano figures??
I would say he's sold in excess of 50 jawas because I've had Toni on favourites sellers on eBay since 2003 with email updates!?

I'm not defending this guy But Toni has been in the game since the VERY beginning and has boat loads of this stuff..

What I'm getting at also, are we as collectors killing the hobby off ourselves with the accusations we're all firing here??

You've all took it as Gospel...
There needs to be full on good points and bad points review.

He's got the simple smarts enough to realise that an untouched unused factory cardback, would be worth 10 times that of a MOC...

 

[Caswellbot]

Is it known by Jason Joiner or ANYONE, how Toni Acquired all those Meccano figures??
I would say he's sold in excess of 50 jawas because I've had Toni on favourites sellers on eBay since 2003 with email updates!?

I'm not defending this guy But Toni has been in the game since the VERY beginning and has boat loads of this stuff..

What I'm getting at also, are we as collectors killing the hobby off ourselves with the accusations we're all firing here??

You've all took it as Gospel...
There needs to be full on good points and bad points review.

He's got the simple smarts enough to realise that an untouched unused factory cardback, would be worth 10 times that of a MOC...

Hi and welcome to the forum. I think you need to read the posts in this thread. It will help frame the situation for you. Some of the points you raise have been discussed already.

Thanks, chris.

 

[edd_jedi]

Is it known by Jason Joiner or ANYONE, how Toni Acquired all those Meccano figures??
I would say he's sold in excess of 50 jawas because I've had Toni on favourites sellers on eBay since 2003 with email updates!?

I'm not defending this guy But Toni has been in the game since the VERY beginning and has boat loads of this stuff..

What I'm getting at also, are we as collectors killing the hobby off ourselves with the accusations we're all firing here??

You've all took it as Gospel...
There needs to be full on good points and bad points review.

He's got the simple smarts enough to realise that an untouched unused factory cardback, would be worth 10 times that of a MOC...

In summary:

1) Yes we agree Toni has sold tons of genuine MOCs over the years, not everything he has sold is fake

2) Yes we're taking JJs comments with a pinch of salt, but the list and dodgy MOCs he produced at FF4 are pretty damning evidence

3) Yes an unused cardback would be worth 10 times more than a MOC if there was one or even a handful in circulation, but not if there were 25,000

 

[jedisearcher]

So if we're killing Toni's market then he stands to lose most right?

So if he's got most to lose and is innocent then why isn't he defending himself.

That's what any right minded businessman with nothing to hide would do.

There needs to be full on good points ...

I'd like you to raise one good point :lol:

 

[spoons]

Ignoring the whys and who's I've been having a think about the initial supply of cardbacks, and the quantities of different period unused card backs strikes me as odd.

The GM cards make sense as being unused stock because of the English text and that European cards were released later or for longer than Kenner or UK releases.

The 65 back cards make sense as the were the last release before Tri logos

Why were Pal ESB 45 backs and ROTJ 45 back cards unused? Surely these would have been used up before the next line.

Both have appeared with foreign stickers/offers but would Palitoy have kept hold of these for this purpose?

Are any of the iron sealed Hoth Troopers or Fetts ROTJ 45 backs? In the condensed thread all examples are either GM or 65 backs.

From the evidence so far I think that most Pal 45 backs (if not all) should be fine.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ignoring the whys and who's I've been having a think about the initial supply of cardbacks, and the quantities of different period unused card backs strikes me as odd.

The GM cards make sense as being unused stock because of the English text and that European cards were released later or for longer than Kenner or UK releases.

The 65 back cards make sense as the were the last release before Tri logos

Why were Pal ESB 45 backs and ROTJ 45 back cards unused? Surely these would have been used up before the next line.

Both have appeared with foreign stickers/offers but would Palitoy have kept hold of these for this purpose?

Are any of the iron sealed Hoth Troopers or Fetts ROTJ 45 backs? In the condensed thread all examples are either GM or 65 backs.

From the evidence so far I think that most Pal 45 backs (if not all) should be fine.

It's what was left when they closed the factory and cleared out all the little nooks and crannies, a right mix of cards by the looks of it.
Jj's original list is a right mixed bag if you read all of it.


cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I broke down whether cards were 45 back or 65 back for the ROTJ cards by looking at the AFA population reports and what was for sale on toytoni.com

So hoth troopers are all 65bk as far as I'm aware.

The matrix is on my guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/

cheers Jason

 

[Starzone]

Ignoring the whys and who's I've been having a think about the initial supply of cardbacks, and the quantities of different period unused card backs strikes me as odd.

The GM cards make sense as being unused stock because of the English text and that European cards were released later or for longer than Kenner or UK releases.

The 65 back cards make sense as the were the last release before Tri logos

Why were Pal ESB 45 backs and ROTJ 45 back cards unused? Surely these would have been used up before the next line.

Both have appeared with foreign stickers/offers but would Palitoy have kept hold of these for this purpose?

Are any of the iron sealed Hoth Troopers or Fetts ROTJ 45 backs? In the condensed thread all examples are either GM or 65 backs.

From the evidence so far I think that most Pal 45 backs (if not all) should be fine.

I don't think 45 backs are fine at all......aren't the Bossks, Tie Pilots, Bespin guards all 45 backs? And Toni has sold many of these over the years

 

[mr_palitoy]

Ignoring the whys and who's I've been having a think about the initial supply of cardbacks, and the quantities of different period unused card backs strikes me as odd.

The GM cards make sense as being unused stock because of the English text and that European cards were released later or for longer than Kenner or UK releases.

The 65 back cards make sense as the were the last release before Tri logos

Why were Pal ESB 45 backs and ROTJ 45 back cards unused? Surely these would have been used up before the next line.

Both have appeared with foreign stickers/offers but would Palitoy have kept hold of these for this purpose?

Are any of the iron sealed Hoth Troopers or Fetts ROTJ 45 backs? In the condensed thread all examples are either GM or 65 backs.

From the evidence so far I think that most Pal 45 backs (if not all) should be fine.

I don't think 45 backs are fine at all......aren't the Bossks, Tie Pilots, Bespin guards all 45 backs? And Toni has sold many of these over the years

Yes, 45bs and 45c's are on the list. See the breakdown on my guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/

No BSGs on there yet...

cheers Jason

 

[Grant_C]

The 45's would be left over from the transition to Jedi.

Which is bizarre as there aren't any Jedi TFP.

My guess :?

 

[lee gray]

So if we're killing Toni's market then he stands to lose most right?

So if he's got most to lose and is innocent then why isn't he defending himself.

That's what any right minded businessman with nothing to hide would do.

There needs to be full on good points ...

I'd like you to raise one good point :lol:

I have given up all this now as bored with it
I am thinking Toni is thinking the same thing and his mindset is its just a couple of forums, wont do much harm it will die over instead of realizing just how big this is and how far it will reach the rest of the community in time and staying quiet for so long has caused him the most damage.

Edit: So it looks like JJ too has been selling ironed on cardbacks from what a couple of people have said, so its not as clear cut.

 

[spoons]

Ignoring the whys and who's I've been having a think about the initial supply of cardbacks, and the quantities of different period unused card backs strikes me as odd.

The GM cards make sense as being unused stock because of the English text and that European cards were released later or for longer than Kenner or UK releases.

The 65 back cards make sense as the were the last release before Tri logos

Why were Pal ESB 45 backs and ROTJ 45 back cards unused? Surely these would have been used up before the next line.

Both have appeared with foreign stickers/offers but would Palitoy have kept hold of these for this purpose?

Are any of the iron sealed Hoth Troopers or Fetts ROTJ 45 backs? In the condensed thread all examples are either GM or 65 backs.

From the evidence so far I think that most Pal 45 backs (if not all) should be fine.

I don't think 45 backs are fine at all......aren't the Bossks, Tie Pilots, Bespin guards all 45 backs? And Toni has sold many of these over the years

Yes, 45bs and 45c's are on the list. See the breakdown on my guide:-

http://www.freewebs.com/mrpalitoy/

No BSGs on there yet...

cheers Jason

But the list only states German and ROTJ

The tri Fetts on 45 backs can be explained and is not proof of faking. Everything else is based on population reports of mint figures.

Has anyone done the same studies for Kenner figures?

I'm concerned that people are binning collections that aren't fake. The missing list of carded figures still concerns me.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have a good look at the list.

The ESB cards are listed as german. Imperial TIE Fighter pilot is noted as being Palitoy cards in brackets afterwards.
I have looked at the breakdown of german vs palitoy cards for bossk and chewbacca with Wolfgang,
and since both german and palitoy esb 45b figures are both available in large mint quantities and
both were sold on toytoni.com that a 50/50 split between german and palitoy cards was the best
that we could come up with.

I also assigned 6 imperial tie fighter pilot cards listed as palitoy as german, as no known card exists for this on the palitoy matrix,
where as it does on the german matrix.

In summary, the list is inaccurate, and we have done our best to try and tie it down further.

cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

Just thinking aloud Jason

Yours and Wollfs work has been greatly appreciated, particularly regarding centrally placed bubbles.

I agree 45bs could have been kept for the German market and the 45s for the EU market, but something about the assumed quantities doesnt ring true. Looking at your limelights I wouldn't assume that all your high AFAs are fake, and it strikes me that the middle ground is being overlooked

I don't have any idea about Grants TIE conundrum...

Anyway that's my thoughts done for a while

 

[eddiebigbiscuits]

as a bit collector of star wars i find it no surprise that there are folk out there that would rip people off to make money the world is full of assholes like that, the question of did they or didn't they will in part never get a conclusive answer as everyone will have an opinion of their own, tarnished yes it will damage the hobby because there will always be a nagging doubt in the collectors mind about the validity of any moc purchase, that to me is the real tragedy of this whole thing that something that is meant to be an enjoyable hobby has been stabbed in the back by a few but it has effected the many.


it is very sad indeed.

 

[Lafos]

Has someone from UK already laid a criminal complaint against TT to initiate a penal procedure ?!

I can only speak for Germany, but you can bring a charge against a suspect at no cost. The prosecution is forced to launch investigations. This would surely put some pressure on TT and may result in new facts.

 

[ace]

Edit: So it looks like JJ too has been selling ironed on cardbacks from what a couple of people have said, so its not as clear cut.

sorry where is the big reveal ? i have said all along i sold boba fetts and hoth troopers , i did not know they where put on with an ion till Nov 2013

its hardly news ?

its funny people try to dirty my name in this when my name damaged anyway , but Toni who has been up to all sorts everyone says well it cannot be proven

i am sorry there is so much hypocrisy at time , storeys about me go around with no prove for years and no one says is there any prof or even a smoking gun , nothing , where as Toni there is so much stuff out there smoking guns even the odd tank and yet no one will just say it hes done this and many people have been had.


as to if anyone in the UK is going to go to the police NO

why will i will speak my mind on his

No because most people that it affects that knows the true story about these figures are dumping them on ebay or to there friends as real.

look on there now every day you see these figures going up for sale its wording is very interesting some say original figure on a mint card etc etc its funny how in reality everyone is going to look out for them selfs and no one will take the high ground and say that this is wrong and take it further.

I thought at least one person would have done this but no i do not see anyone doing this, they will all sell them off get there money out of it then moan about Toni or that they had to sell when no one proved it and they should not have sold etc etc .

its also funny i have meet a few keyboard worries on here but in the real world they do nothing at all when it comes to a real true big scandal :-\

something that Gorge Lucas and Gary Kurtz wanted to install in a generation of young people in the 70s and 80s that they hoped may pass something good onto people and help them in there life's.

"Do or do not there is no try"

maybe the keyboard worries will miss this all together ? but maybe do it or do not do it, but don't sit and talk about doing it. ?

wolf and Jason you have both done some amazing stuff with the info you have gathered lets hope your work is herd and others see that what we have brought out in the open if true and that people need to act to stop others being ripped off , and also what wolf and Jason have done is stopped the damage that toni has done the the collecting community, helping these guys in the end helps all collectors so help them gather the info its a thankless task and no one else steeped up to the bar and did this job

so thank you wolf and Jason good factual work guys

rant over

funny i see others come on here and have a rant from time to time and no one says a word ,i wonder if the same treatment will be the same for old JJ

happy new year

j

 

[Grant_C]

Well- its only really starwarsfigures on ebay that is dumping them as the majority of the ones he is listing are the chosen ones.

Anyone know who starwarsfigures is?