Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

I agree that alot are flat but the first pictured item was warped like that when i sent him of to be graded, as you know i dont keep my figures for long so wouldnt have had time for it to warp before i sold it on lol
 
Some fantastic work has been done by you guys on bubble placement and the various tells on these pieces. Something else has occurred to me though. Thinking about how these would have been stored if they were factory sealed - they would have been stored in boxes and the bubbles would be flush against the adjacent card. This even on the most nice factory sealed MOC causes a tell tale fine edge wear to the bubble when held in the light. Yet TT figures regularly get 90 at AFA and remembering how my Boba Fett 65 backs were the bubble faces were mirror smooth, that just doesnt tally with a factory sealed MOC stored in a box (be it the original packing case or not) with other figures. I guess this is a self-evident point but in the deluge of physical evidence and tells its also something simple to consider.
 
Lee Bullock said:
Some fantastic work has been done by you guys on bubble placement and the various tells on these pieces. Something else has occurred to me though. Thinking about how these would have been stored if they were factory sealed - they would have been stored in boxes and the bubbles would be flush against the adjacent card. This even on the most nice factory sealed MOC causes a tell tale fine edge wear to the bubble when held in the light. Yet TT figures regularly get 90 at AFA and remembering how my Boba Fett 65 backs were the bubble faces were mirror smooth, that just doesnt tally with a factory sealed MOC stored in a box (be it the original packing case or not) with other figures. I guess this is a self-evident point but in the deluge of physical evidence and tells its also something simple to consider.
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Again this means nothing, I picked up an kenner sw a back r2 with sku footer, a lot older than any of toni's mocs. It graded 85/90/90 it also had a crystal clear bubble. It had no warping at all and looked better than most of toni's moc's ive bought, so all these so called tells (mint bubbles,non warped cards) don't mean anything and I think people are now clutching at straws.
 
Cc4rhu said:
Clutching at straws? I think that may be the other way Jim. The stuff that Wolf is finding out is pretty good evidence IMO.
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Not at all mate, im on about bubbles being to mint and warps in cards which can be found on just about any moc if you care to actually look. I've seen a lot of really mint tri logo bubbles on flat cards as well as kenners, has someone been knocking those out too? I'm not talking about bubble positioning and the like which is great work and im not slating it at all in fact I think its probably going to be the real tell, but all this crap about card warping and bubbles not having really slight wear around the edges is crap imo.
 
jimbody1 said:
Cc4rhu said:
Clutching at straws? I think that may be the other way Jim. The stuff that Wolf is finding out is pretty good evidence IMO.
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Not at all mate, im on about bubbles being to mint and warps in cards which can be found on just about any moc if you care to actually look. I've seen a lot of really mint tri logo bubbles on flat cards as well as kenners, has someone been knocking those out too? I'm not talking about bubble positioning and the like which is great work and im not slating it at all in fact I think its probably going to be the real tell, but all this crap about card warping and bubbles not having really slight wear around the edges is crap imo.
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You make think its crap - but I am not saying only use the lack of wear to a bubble as the only thing to say some card is a TT its supporting evidence nothing more. I have seen enough store bought MOC and TT cards to see that there is a tendency for TT to have no wear whatsoever whereas MINT cards from a packing case do often have a bubble wear ring. I am sorry but your tone is patronising and condescending.
 
im sorry you don't like my tone but I still don't think it would be used as a "tell" regardless, I dare say some collectors that have tt mocs stored in boxes from the early days will have these bubble scuffs. One of the mocs I bought and had graded was an gm r2, when I got it back it had a crap bubble grade because of slight yellowing and a very small crack in the bottom of the single stem which I hadn't noticed. Don't get me wrong mate I see exactly where your coming from but I just don't think itd be a reliable "tell" and you would run the risk of either discounting something you shouldn't or labeling something as fake when theres nothing actually amiss with it. I think instead of looking for little inconsistant tells we should be concentrating on wolfs work on bubble positioning and also more work on the ideas of the repro bubble being used.
 
First up I too think that the warping will happen in time. If faked surely a great bunch was sealed together at once in the beginning...about 20 years ago. Only nowadays they seeme to be made "by order"...though.



More important:

Another German collector has messured his potentional TT Mocs:

Chewie 3,4cm
c3po (AFA) 4,0
r2d2 double stem (UKG) 3,4
black security 3.9
bossk 4,0
Trooper (double stem) 3,5
Han solo hoth 4,0
cc pilot on rotj front german esb back (afa) 3,9

Besides Chewie and R2 and Trooper all others are off! We have learned now that Chewie and IG are possibly more 3,3, and 3,4. All others seem to be more like 3,5-3,8.

C-3PO, BBSG, Bossk and Han Hoth are off....even the CCP ROTJ (german back)...and now guess what these have in comon:

1. All have the "lined" pattern!!!!
2. All these are on the List published by Joiner!!!

So I ask you all again and especially JC: Are you all sure that the lined pattern is originally factory sealed??

The only dead proof card I believe in now are the ones with the crescent flaws to the top of the blister. We have seen now lots of used cradbacks and two craded: ATAT Driver and Fett.

Here is the Fett again:
http://r25.imgfast.net/users/2511/13/96/10/album/german19.jpg

I cant see no pattern on those?!?!?


PS: Mirco/Mike_Skywalker will do messurements soon on all his loose cradbacks (about 34 German 45 backs). So will know more soon I guess!
 
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
 
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
 
wbobafett said:
First up I too think that the warping will happen in time. If faked surely a great bunch was sealed together at once in the beginning...about 20 years ago. Only nowadays they seeme to be made "by order"...though.



More important:

Another German collector has messured his potentional TT Mocs:

Chewie 3,4cm
c3po (AFA) 4,0
r2d2 double stem (UKG) 3,4
black security 3.9
bossk 4,0
Trooper (double stem) 3,5
Han solo hoth 4,0
cc pilot on rotj front german esb back (afa) 3,9

Besides Chewie and R2 and Trooper all others are off! We have learned now that Chewie and IG are possibly more 3,3, and 3,4. All others seem to be more like 3,5-3,8.

C-3PO, BBSG, Bossk and Han Hoth are off....even the CCP ROTJ (german back)...and now guess what these have in comon:

1. All have the "lined" pattern!!!!
2. All these are on the List published by Joiner!!!

So I ask you all again and especially JC: Are you all sure that the lined pattern is originally factory sealed??

The only dead proof card I believe in now are the ones with the crescent flaws to the top of the blister. We have seen now lots of used cradbacks and two craded: ATAT Driver and Fett.

Here is the Fett again:
http://r25.imgfast.net/users/2511/13/96/10/album/german19.jpg

I cant see no pattern on those?!?!?


PS: Mirco/Mike_Skywalker will do messurements soon on all his loose cradbacks (about 34 German 45 backs). So will know more soon I guess!
Click to expand...

I still have all the pictures of my gm mocs (now sold on a few years ago) if you want them for comparison I can mail them all to you.
 
jimbody1 said:
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
Click to expand...

From a Yorkshire that means the other party pays.
 
Cc4rhu said:
jimbody1 said:
Lee Bullock said:
And Wolfs work is the primary evidence - but I still hold that the tendency for the condition of TT figures to be consistently lacking the bubble wear is something to bear in mind to support the bubble placement evidence. We will have to agree to disagree on this.
Click to expand...

Then I agree! Lets go have a beer! Lol!
Click to expand...

From a Yorkshire that means the other party pays.
Click to expand...

ofcourse! Lol! Mines half a pint of wifebeater in a pint glass with a double vodka and topped up with bull of the red type!
 
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