Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[80s_collector]

P.S Always stick to buying Vintage Star Wars carded figures from very reputable long term dealers and you wont go far wrong...

With all due respect, this thread is about what you just said.

It seems that until this past week, Jeff was considered a "very reputable dealer".

Before him (and not saying they are 100% the same), Toy Toni was pretty reputable too. Same with Scott McWilliams, Billy Boy, etc.

All of the above have certainly "gone wrong".

Ian

In all fairness I can't comment on 3 of the above as I havnt been so active in SW for 15-20 years until recently, plus Ive never met them or had dealings with them, but I do read many topics on here and as for Toni, well he was pleasant, a good buyer of mine, he always paid and never messed me about, so in my eyes despite what many other people think about him, I found him ok.

 

[laurencedyer]

For example its like saying that years ago there were 96 different production figures on the market.......but now there are 500 different ones, why wouldnt we have seen the other 404 figures years ago.....if a product was made in 1977, you would see at least one in 1978, 79, 80 and 1981.....but when they only turn up on the market 20 or 30 years later you would wonder why..[/quote]

Agree to disagree there, I agree there are rake loads of AT-ST and Prune Face type characters but that is a sweeping statement.
My case find of baggies turned out many new and undocumented baggie type's, many of which have been used on the guide. For example, a whole new classification of baggies being the Palitoy U's. Also there where the first documented ROTJ - h Ree Yees and Admiral Akbar baggies, a common found bagged figure but never seen in that style before. That is just to name a few of one persons find.
New discoveries will keep on being made.

One further example of this is my Palitoy carrier bags. I don't know of a single collector who had previously seen one including yourself, I put one through Vectis to test the market last month and all of a sudden due to the strong price 2 more have come out of the woodwork for sale this week and there not from me.

 

[momike]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

 

[80s_collector]

For example its like saying that years ago there were 96 different production figures on the market.......but now there are 500 different ones, why wouldnt we have seen the other 404 figures years ago.....if a product was made in 1977, you would see at least one in 1978, 79, 80 and 1981.....but when they only turn up on the market 20 or 30 years later you would wonder why..

Agree to disagree there, I agree there are rake loads of AT-ST and Prune Face type characters but that is a sweeping statement.
My case find of baggies turned out many new and undocumented baggie type's, many of which have been used on the guide. For example, a whole new classification of baggies being the Palitoy U's. Also there where the first documented ROTJ - h Ree Yees and Admiral Akbar baggies, a common found bagged figure but never seen in that style before. That is just to name a few of one persons find.
New discoveries will keep on being made.

One further example of this is my Palitoy carrier bags. I don't know of a single collector who had previously seen one including yourself, I put one through Vectis to test the market last month and all of a sudden due to the strong price 2 more have come out of the woodwork for sale this week and there not from me.[/quote]

I agree that items do turn up which havn't been seen before and your case of baggies could have possibly held a few variants, but saying that a lot wasnt documented back in the day like it is today and it definately wasnt scrutinised like it is today either.
But the point Im getting across is there seems to be a lot more different variants of baggies on the market now than ever before, whereas with carded figures and boxed vehicles, the variants are really the same as ever before......get my point now a vehicle and a carded figure is a lot harder to fake than a baggie......and in all fairness years ago, anyone could peel the sellotape back on a baggie, swap the figures around and place the sellotape back in place and you would never know as the tape was still sticky back in the 80s and trust me Ive seen it done....

As for the carrier bags, yes I saw those two and I did chuckle......unbelievable 3 at once...I will say those are a lovely item...thanks for showing me it at CE...

 

[80s_collector]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

Hence the reason if you saw my stand at CE, I didnt have one baggie on my stand as I have no confidence in any of them...Im quite happy to keep my reputable name.

 

[laurencedyer]

For example its like saying that years ago there were 96 different production figures on the market.......but now there are 500 different ones, why wouldnt we have seen the other 404 figures years ago.....if a product was made in 1977, you would see at least one in 1978, 79, 80 and 1981.....but when they only turn up on the market 20 or 30 years later you would wonder why..

Agree to disagree there, I agree there are rake loads of AT-ST and Prune Face type characters but that is a sweeping statement.
My case find of baggies turned out many new and undocumented baggie type's, many of which have been used on the guide. For example, a whole new classification of baggies being the Palitoy U's. Also there where the first documented ROTJ - h Ree Yees and Admiral Akbar baggies, a common found bagged figure but never seen in that style before. That is just to name a few of one persons find.
New discoveries will keep on being made.

One further example of this is my Palitoy carrier bags. I don't know of a single collector who had previously seen one including yourself, I put one through Vectis to test the market last month and all of a sudden due to the strong price 2 more have come out of the woodwork for sale this week and there not from me.

I agree that items do turn up which havn't been seen before and your case of baggies could have possibly held a few variants, but saying that a lot wasnt documented back in the day like it is today and it definately wasnt scrutinised like it is today either.
But the point Im getting across is there seems to be a lot more different variants of baggies on the market now than ever before, whereas with carded figures and boxed vehicles, the variants are really the same as ever before......get my point now a vehicle and a carded figure is a lot harder to fake than a baggie......and in all fairness years ago, anyone could peel the sellotape back on a baggie, swap the figures around and place the sellotape back in place and you would never know as the tape was still sticky back in the 80s and trust me Ive seen it done....

As for the carrier bags, yes I saw those two and I did chuckle......unbelievable 3 at once...I will say those are a lovely item...thanks for showing me it at CE...[/quote]

Point better made buddy.

 

[tiefighterboy]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

Hence the reason if you saw my stand at CE, I didnt have one baggie on my stand as I have no confidence in any of them...Im quite happy to keep my reputable name.

People have been making repro weapons and cardbacks since the early 90s too. Not a real revelation.

 

[tobedesu]

80s_collector, to what scale would you say people were swapping figures from baggies back in the day?
It appears that it runs a lot deeper than Jeff's supposed dealings.
For collectors like myself, with no knowledge with baggies, it's a worry to get into this side of collecting.
It was only last year that I bought my only two carded ROTJ carded figures - one from this forum and another from NEC toy fair.
Having taken the plunge with MOC I still read up and researched but am not 100% confident.
Whilst i once thought about getting a few baggies, I feel I don't have the time to research them that I may be interested in.

 

[Ian_C]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

I'm really not sure what the point is here.

There are more baggie variants known now for the same reason we now know multiple variants of Imperial blasters. 20 years ago, very few were documenting variants, as it just wasn't something really considered important back then. Beyond black and blue colours, a blaster was a blaster, and a baggie was a baggie for the majority of the collector world. Now, those niche areas of collecting have become more mainstream, and the added scrutiny has made defining the different types more common. The variants were always there - just now people look closer to see those differences. Same with cardbacks too. Gone are the days of just labeling something a 12 back, for example. Now, it has to be a 12A, 12B, etc.

Ian

 

[Floody]

One possible side effect of all this. There are quite a few more baggies than normal for sale on the Facebook groups.
People selling up before the fall out really hits?

 

[Starzone]

Have to agree with 80s collector on lots of points made in his initial post, being around "back in the day" as people say I've always wondered where all these palitoy baggies originated from?

I've bought 1000s of baggies from source, palitoy reps, toys shops in the late 80s/early 90s and mainly all mail away figures emperor, Numb etc, never had any last 17 or indeed saw any. The factory overstock I obtained were loose and without weapons. For that reason never had any confidence in them and declined to ever sell any that have appeared in the last 10 years.

Question for the Baggie experts....Did they mainly originate from Woolies 8-packs? Had a few of these and although I opened most back in the day and sold the contents as loose figures (don't shoot me I do regret it now) I don't remember any yak faces or rare last 17. Seem to remember the odd Baggie in each pack and the most weapons thrown in loose

I'm curious to learn more about them

Always seems to be questions asked on the authenticity of some baggies, there was in 90s and again in 2000s and if you search Rebelscum you'll find lots of old threads on baggies.

 

[CARTS2]

80s_collector

Some basic observations from down under ...,back in the period u described u simply didn't know what baggies were around, especially in the USA ..,,,there is literally 1000s apon 1000s of sealed packs out from US companies ie Sears, Wards , JC Penney, bought through their catalogs ....I imagine that 90% & more has been opened ....many many of these were kept in the plastic baggies ....I can't imagine the vast numbers ..,,I think I have opened 20 packs myself in the last few years from esb 10 pack to sw 2 pack .....as for the last 17 ....didn't most come stuff like playsets, special offers etc .....the vast majority of the baggies investigated were from these US companies', packs, playsets, vehicles, cases etc

I suggest you review franks guide attached on this site ...it will shock you how many baggies were produced & from so many different areas

 

[Starzone]

http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1014175

Like I said lots of debates on Rebelscum over the years ....

Always make me sad when there is such negativity in the hobby.....collecting should be fun right ?

 

[palitoyjunky]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

Hence the reason if you saw my stand at CE, I didnt have one baggie on my stand as I have no confidence in any of them...Im quite happy to keep my reputable name.

You also "didn't have one" SW character Palitoy 30 back on ur stand either. Oh yeh they were under the table :lol: They weren't being kept company by a load of Baggies were they? :lol: :lol:

Just a bit of vintage SW humour-soz I couldn't resist :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Starzone]

80s_collector

Some basic observations from down under ...,back in the period u described u simply didn't know what baggies were around, especially in the USA ..,,,there is literally 1000s apon 1000s of sealed packs out from US companies ie Sears, Wards , JC Penney, bought through their catalogs ....I imagine that 90% & more has been opened ....many many of these were kept in the plastic baggies ....I can't imagine the vast numbers ..,,I think I have opened 20 packs myself in the last few years from esb 10 pack to sw 2 pack .....as for the last 17 ....didn't most come stuff like playsets, special offers etc .....the vast majority of the baggies investigated were from these US companies', packs, playsets, vehicles, cases etc

I suggest you review franks guide attached on this site ...it will shock you how many baggies were produced & from so many different areas

Of course you're right, I'm talking specifically about Palitoy baggies.....where does a Luke's Stormtrooper, Yak face come from....Woolies packs ? Factory stock? Samples?

 

[edd_jedi]

It's a fair observation that was mentioned earlier in the thread, but I don't agree that baggies are so risky that they cannot be trusted. As said before the problem up til now has been lack of knowledge, people have been buying any old **** in a baggie (myself included) because we simply didn't know any better. That will have to change. But with the hard work from people like Frank documenting baggies from 100% concrete sources (eg sealed mailer packs, playsets, employee finds like Laurence's) I am confident fakes can be spotted fairly easily with the help of Frank's guide.

 

[edd_jedi]

By the way a week now since Frank made his post and still virtually nothing from Jeff...

 

[Andyclarke]

By the way a week now since Frank made his post and still virtually nothing from Jeff...

The silence is deafening.

 

[Andyclarke]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

Hence the reason if you saw my stand at CE, I didnt have one baggie on my stand as I have no confidence in any of them...Im quite happy to keep my reputable name.

You also "didn't have one" SW character Palitoy 30 back on ur stand either. Oh yeh they were under the table :lol: They weren't being kept company by a load of Baggies were they? :lol: :lol:

Just a bit of vintage SW humour-soz I couldn't resist :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh Jon don't be naughty! Ian's gonna produce some pics soon, I have every faith in him.

 

[Ross_Barr]

By the way a week now since Frank made his post and still virtually nothing from Jeff...

Because he's a technophone. With an active eBay selling account that is also well versed in digital camera image capture and upload. And is probably reading this right now.

But he's afraid of technology.....

 

[80s_collector]

80scollevtor if I'm being honest I can't see what you have added to this thread other than what would seem to be a plug for business

Actually your wrong, Im basically trying to educate many buyers into making them realise people have been easily faking baggies for years....its not a recent thing, its gone on for a long time......afterall its a standard figure and a common plastic bag.

Hence the reason if you saw my stand at CE, I didnt have one baggie on my stand as I have no confidence in any of them...Im quite happy to keep my reputable name.

You also "didn't have one" SW character Palitoy 30 back on ur stand either. Oh yeh they were under the table :lol: They weren't being kept company by a load of Baggies were they? :lol: :lol:

Just a bit of vintage SW humour-soz I couldn't resist :lol: :lol: :lol:

No the cards were hanging out to dry outside my hotel window waiting for someone to come along and iron them

 

[Frunkstar]

Basically, look at all the baggies for sale throughout the world, loads of them, look on the internet, at the shows, all over the world theres many of them on the market and there has been so many for sale over the last 15 years or a bit longer..........why....?

Simple, because people started collecting them and wanted mint figures in a sealed plastic bag and were willing to pay big bucks for them because people believe they are rare......theyre not rare they are unique as most were never put into production by the toy companies, they have been or still are being made and this has been happening for 15-20 years on and off due to the fact that the market is full of collectors willing to pay and find something nobody else has got.

Back in the day as you all say, in the 1980s, early 90s, there wasnt any hardly.....apart from the American playset figures, early bird figures and a few different mail away issues........none of them were about.

Years ago Ive sold many sealed cases of the normal baggies, emperors, anakins, dengars, a few fetts, 100s of loose ones and ones in their white card boxes, mixed cases, many bought from warehouses, from collections, dealers and on market stalls too, but sorry to say there were no last 17 figures (unless they came out of playsets) there were never the variants there is on the market today and that isnt cos now we have the internet and the world is small, its always been small and the internet just made it faster......Back in the day we had Toy Shop newspapers, loads of mags from here and abroard, we still dealt across the globe using bankers drafts and telephones......

The Toy shop newspaper was £100 a year for a subscription and was like a printed version of Ebay.

Go back to the 80s/90s and consider one main point, when any baggie was £1, £2 or maybe a fiver.......tons came to the surface due to the fact that nobody could give them away basically, but only the normal 15-30 different ones surfaced that we still see today, nobody wanted them, nobody cared about that little bag with writing on it, the items were basically worthless............but years later there is a market and where there are takers, there will be makers and thats the world we live in.

So many of the baggies on the market today could have been made yesterday, 40 years ago or 15 years ago, who knows.....I personally never had a customer base for baggies years ago, but I know a few people who thankfully arent in the game now who used to buy any baggies off me years ago and in front of my own eyes they would swap the figures around.

So good luck to the buyers and the seller and hopefully everyone will end up smiling again......its toys afterall...

P.S Always stick to buying Vintage Star Wars carded figures from very reputable long term dealers and you wont go far wrong...

Seriously? I have many thoughts about this subject but it is not what the thread is about really, but to say that most baggies that are out there are fakes is IMP simple laughable, over the years & through documented & traceable finds the info in the baggie guide has been put together including cross referencing & detailed investigations, even going so far as to cross check coo & family types are correct & consistent from one baggie to the next of the same type.

Agree that there are not many baggies compared to MOC & vehicles & many other items from the toy line, but to simple say that means they do not exist is sheer lunacy, I have been collecting baggies now for many years & would like to think I know what I am looking at, as an example as to how difficult baggies are to come by in comparison to loose figure & MOC's I went to NEC toyfair in 2006 & there was one baggie at the show, compared to thousands of loose & hundreds of MOC's. baggies have always been a very niche area of vintage collecting so did not go mainstream till recently, but if you knew where to dig & kept your eyes peeled they are/were out there & not just the few common ones.

I could go on about this subject with more detail & info for page after page, but it is not relevant IMO

EDIT: (to add) just to add a little insight - every single figure bar some of the last 17 can be found in kenner baggies of several types in the sears/J.C Penny etc mail away multi packs, the only exclusion was 4-Lom which can be found in 2 different baggies in the mail away card front off mailers & they were put out in large numbers & are still out there in large numbers

 

[maxf]

By the way a week now since Frank made his post and still virtually nothing from Jeff...

Because he's a technophone. With an active eBay selling account that is also well versed in digital camera image capture and upload. And is probably reading this right now.

But he's afraid of technology.....

Who has feedback on ebay for £9,500 of baggies over the past 12 months. Thousands of feedbacks and an active account for years. He also drives an M4. All signs of someone who doesn't get technology.

 

[Frunkstar]

Back to the matter at hand, check out the below email dated 2013 which clearly states

1. conformation he is going to accept the han fat head back & open it for his loose, this is the one he then sold on to Kev (see more info to confirm further down)

2. that he keeps all his transaction records in printed format

3. has never bought a lot from the UK, always from the states

4. mentions the rebel commandos (fake / aftermarket ESB-h ones)

this is the han that Kevlad posted about earlier which I had previously bought from Jeff & returned as all wrong / fake -

I can add full size image of the han to cross check if needed

 

[lejackal]

The saddest thing about all this, besides people getting ripped off, is that when you read the emails to and from Frank they start to come across as him almost asking for tips on how to make them better :twisted:

 

[Frunkstar]

The saddest thing about all this, besides people getting ripped off, is that when you read the emails to and from Frank they start to come across as him almost asking for tips on how to make them better :twisted:

Yes glad you brought that up, I did not really want to infer it, but the more & more I think about all the questions I used to answer for him as I do for anyone that asked for help, the more it would seem they were questions that "could" be used to help figure out where previously fakes baggies have been going wrong, though obviously at the time (3 years ago) I never considered that, just thought he wanted to learn more about the hobby & what he was selling, though when I look back over the emails & even from memory I always wondered why he would ask such simple easy & obvious question, with answers any person who has collected baggie for over a month should be aware of, at that time I had no idea he had some 10 years more that I under his belt in terms of time collecting them which now makes is seem even all the more peculiar :?

 

[Frunkstar]

FYI the Ree Yee's baggies shown in the same email as the han are those shown on page 8 on my baggie guide as confirmed fake & if I am truly honest I now even have my doubts about the Hoth commander which would make it every single figure he offered me in that emails message is a fake

Ediit: - bar the kenner Lando, forgot about that one

 

[Bunglebubs]

The saddest thing about all this, besides people getting ripped off, is that when you read the emails to and from Frank they start to come across as him almost asking for tips on how to make them better :twisted:

I was also thinking the same thing

I know you are very busy Frank but ive sent you a pm

 

[Frunkstar]

Hello SWFUK'er's

As you can see the work for the most part to confirm fakes being sold is done, though I have a lot more evidence I am slowly going through.

Can I please request that if any of you have dealt with Jeff over the years to cross check all your baggies & contact me or post on here confirming what you have (only the fakes) & provide some evidence in way of screen shots on payments etc, as now the hard task starts in earnest - trying to figure out what the real numbers tof fakes are that are in circulation & the even more difficult part - removing them from circulation so future collectors are not also scammed.

If we all work together we can remove this scourge from the hobby & return to baggies being a fun area to focus on.

Many thanks in advance

Frank

 

[Vin3po]

Well I think the evidence speaks for itself now really.

I have no doubt in my mind Jeff knew he was selling on fake baggies ! especially after been told by Frank they are fake / suspicious will open them and use as loose mint figures then in turn selling on to Kev ? come on this is just bang out of order if you ask me.

Why with Andrew Neo's 3 purchases from Jeff would he put himself out of pocket on shipping charges and send that questionable / fake Tusken direct to Singapore instead of sending to Frank along with the other 2 ? Cause no doubt in his mind he knew Frank would spot it a mile away.

As Max posted earlier Jeff has feedback for £9500 worth of baggies in the last 12 months alone , so for him to say he is not in it for Financial gain is another very questionable response especially when you are selling Lando and leia figures you cant pick up for under £30 but when they are stuck in a fake SW A baggie you are over £500+ each.

I could go on and on with the examples shown but what is the point ? as I started this reply the evidence speaks for itself now.

I would like to say a huge thank you to Frank and the other guys for bringing this to the community. Its a shame all the bickering it caused between friends but I am glad it seems everyone is pulling together now and focusing on the issues at hand.

Cheers

Vince