Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[momike]

So he sold the Esb-a leia knowing it was fake anyway

He has been selling those Esb-a baggies for years, always thought they looked to good to be true

 

[theforceuk]

Just one really strong piece of evidence like those posted above, with the promise of much more to follow would've prevented much of the first 25 pages. Something to back up the original allegation alongside the photos of the rogue baggies. Puts a whole different light on it.

Exactly.

I completely disagree, what you should have done is shut up and waited.

It's not Franks fault you have trouble processing written information.

 

[laurencedyer]

Just one really strong piece of evidence like those posted above, with the promise of much more to follow would've prevented much of the first 25 pages. Something to back up the original allegation alongside the photos of the rogue baggies. Puts a whole different light on it.

Exactly.

I completely disagree, what you should have done is shut up and waited.

It's not Franks fault you have trouble processing written information.

Can everyone just stop all of this ******** again!!!
I thought we had all pulled together in trying to get some answers and not the divisions that this has caused.

 

[theforceuk]

I completely agree, but enough is enough. How can anyone still come back to the OP having a go at Frank because he should have done this or he should have done that. Oh I would have done this. I tell you something, if it wasn't for Frank most of you would still be buying fake baggies so stop having a go at him and show some respect.

You need to have a word with yourselves.

 

[Lindo]

I completely agree, but enough is enough. How can anyone still come back to the OP having a go at Frank because he should have done this or he should have done that. Oh I would have done this. I tell you something, if it wasn't for Frank most of you would still be buying fake baggies so stop having a go at him and show some respect.

You need to have a word with yourselves.

Chill out fgs jesus

 

[xbomber]

I completely agree, but enough is enough. How can anyone still come back to the OP having a go at Frank because he should have done this or he should have done that. Oh I would have done this. I tell you something, if it wasn't for Frank most of you would still be buying fake baggies so stop having a go at him and show some respect.

You need to have a word with yourselves.

Chill out fgs jesus

Seconded. It's getting a little hysterical now. I understand it's a subject close to everyone's heart but I'm not sure how productive some of this is (unlike the posts containing evidence which are great).

Frank, as someone relatively neutral and only indirectly affected can I reassure you that I don't think anyone was "**** slinging" or disparaging your efforts.

 

[Frunkstar]

Well just been through mail stream 6 of 38 which (takes time) as each stream is up to 100 messages long & I have not collated all the info from it to put on here yet, but it is forthcoming & just from this one stream there is plenty more "interesting" information shall we say.

I did not post this thread for any recognition nor any of the ashamed in-house bickering & quite frankly have been most shocked & disappointed by the division it has caused, this was the last thing I would wish to see here on the forum I would call my 2nd home when it comes to collecting, what I did post it for was disclosure of a serious problem (IMO) that is affecting the area of the hobby I hold dear & care about deeply & I do not wish to see 4 years of work on the baggie guide being washed away either if speaking honestly.

Please can we ALL set aside any petty squabbling & try to concentrate on the matter at hand, which is making the hobby a safe & enjoyable one for us all by removing fakes from it.

Peace & love guys!

 

[trappedtexan]

Apologies to any whom may have felt my post were bashing. I did say lay off Frank and the podcast team a while back, and tried to mainly posts evidence and then a few questions and suggestions.

Hope all can forgive and forget and move forward.

 

[Palifan]

Please can we ALL set aside any petty squabbling & try to concentrate on the matter at hand, which is making the hobby a safe & enjoyable one for us all by removing fakes from it.

Peace & love guys![/quote]

Well said and it's clearly time to just focus on the big picture here. I'm sure Frank is happy to just get the information he's sat on out there as quickly as possible and all most of us have to do now is gain from these findings so we can pass the knowledge on to any baggie collectors we might know or may come across in time.

This isn't an area of collecting that I'm involved with at all but I still like to learn what's going on in the vintage world like I did with the whole TT mess.

Great work for all those involved in exposing this.

Ian

 

[Ian_C]

Whats already been posted BTW is still only the tip of the iceberg, so where are all those naysayers & ****-slingers now?? - thanks for all the apologies BTW - figures

Patience is a virtue you know!!! - I did say more info was forthcoming not that anyone took note of it & waited before lighting the fireworks, I hope you are all really proud of yourselves.

Hey Frank,

I get this has been a stressful experience. Try not to take it too personally. The guys that were critical did it for a reason they felt was justified at the time. The main thing is, late or not, you're presenting the evidence needed to sway people now, so venting your frustration at your critics will only be counter-productive.

Cheers to you, and excellent work. Thank you so much for watching over and protecting the community.

Ian

 

[SublevelStudios]

Please can we ALL set aside any petty squabbling & try to concentrate on the matter at hand, which is making the hobby a safe & enjoyable one for us all by removing fakes from it.

Sure, happy with that, let's move on and try and gain a positive outcome. But posting stuff like this is not helpful:

Whats already been posted BTW is still only the tip of the iceberg, so where are all those naysayers & ****-slingers now?? - thanks for all the apologies BTW - figures

Don't ever recall slinging any ****, and I would have spoken up for anyone based on the OP.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

 

[edd_jedi]

I can understand Frank's frustrations having put so much effort in to this and getting a backlash initially, but I'm sure everybody was just trying to see the good in people and we all concede more evidence in the first post would have helped.

Let's try and save the retrospective on how it was handled until after it's all sorted.

 

[Frunkstar]

I also wanted to just take the opportunity to thank all those that have remained objective & positive through the messy & troubling parts of this thread & given some moral support when it was needed most, I salute you & really do appreciate it.

As for my other more negative post earlier, I must apologize as it was a little out of character & I hope you will forgive me, it's been a hell of a week with many members demanding info & evidence non now now when it was not fully ready to post in a clear concise format & the rather rushed podcast just made everyone scream for all of the supporting evidence immediately which was not all collated & is still being looked at, the week was topped of with a major leak from my back boiler / heating system on Friday which created many many hours work & a very cold house with no heating or water whatsoever & 3 kids to keep happy & healthy, that coupled with the fact that 3 member's of the investigation team are off ill (2 seriously) there was a break in for another & one is on Holiday just further delayed info being put forward more quickly, but hey thats life, timing is never right, I am currently still without water or heating in winter.

Please also try to bear in mind that although there are 15 members on the investigation team many are never going to post here as they were brought on for specific reasons, many of them being regarding just single items or subjects matters & are not baggie collectors per se.

Many thanks again for your patience folks, more will be put forward shortly & I still extend the olive branch to Jeff to come on here & please explain his side of the story & back up his explanation with some facts & corroborating evidence of those facts as if this is a simple case of not knowing enough about the items being sold & being trickle fed bad product it would swath away at bear minimum the reason for us wondering if they are being manufactured to order as it would seem by what we have seen to date with the mounting evidence at hand.

 

[maxf]

Frank - Thanks for all of your hard work. I was initially a little critical as the evidence didnt seem to be totally there - I'm fully behind you now.

As I see it:

Best case - Jeff is a shady seller.
Mid case - Jeff is knowingly selling fake baggies, possibly linked to the person/persons making them.
Worst case - Jeff is making them.

 

[Frunkstar]

Frank - Thanks for all of your hard work. I was initially a little critical as the evidence didnt seem to be totally there - I'm fully behind you now.

Not you at all Max I thought your posts were well thought out & you made some valid points, I think the biggest headache has been Joe (finestcomics) as we all know (sorry Edd), the argumentative confrontational nature of that particular members posts made getting on with this more promptly like wading through waist high treacle for a while.

As I see it:

Best case - Jeff is a shady seller.
Mid case - Jeff is knowingly selling fake baggies, possibly linked to the person/persons making them.
Worst case - Jeff is making them.

Think that about sums things up

 

[Andyclarke]

A big thanks to Frank and the team for all the effort and investigatory skills shown in what must have been conducted under very stressful circumstances. I'm no baggie collector but appreciate the impact this will have on a big part of our hobby. I feel very sorry for anyone (victims) who have unknowingly purchased these fraudulent figures. It really is a horrible situation.

 

[finestcomics]

Not you at all Max I thought your posts were well thought out & you made some valid points, I think the biggest headache has been Joe (finestcomics) as we all know (sorry Edd), the argumentative confrontational nature of that particular members posts made getting on with this more promptly like wading through waist high treacle for a while.

I had left this thread for dead for reasons the site admin crossed the line in addressing my participation and involvement, but since you keep bringing me up repeatedly...

I only insisted on a revising the first post since two members of the investigation stated it was not going to be proven that Jeff made them. I wasn't the only person to remark in this thread that there was still a mention in the OP inferring he did. I asked three times for that revision, and even had to supply a screengrab because apparently it wasn't something anyone remembered you writing.

The request for clarification on the Fett baggie was because discussion began to emerge about culling these, and possibly destroying them or taking them out of circulation. As the original post made no specific mention if the touch-ups were the extent, I asked if the seals were factory originals. It was also suggested in the pdocast Jeff was going to send these off to UKG - my thought here was if Stephen Ward could confirm the seals were legit, I could offer to assess if a safe removal of the touch-ups was possible. In doing so, these would not be "fake" any longer. Again, this only made sense if the seals were correct - I wasn't asking for that to be answered on the spot if the person responding was unsure, but did ask for clarification for a reason.

If asking these things in an attempt to save something vintage from being destroyed, and trying to find a positive in this sordid situation makes me a troll, so be it.

But that was my intent. What you call argumentative overlooks the fact I was asking for clarification. I ask you to refrain from painting a picture here of something that isn't - repeating falsehoods doesn't make it any more true.

I'm done here.

 

[Ross_Barr]

Frank - Thanks for all of your hard work. I was initially a little critical as the evidence didnt seem to be totally there - I'm fully behind you now.

As I see it:

Best case - Jeff is a shady seller.
Mid case - Jeff is knowingly selling fake baggies, possibly linked to the person/persons making them.
Worst case - Jeff is making them.

Agree that Frank deserves the prize for Community Member of the Year, or SWF.UK member of the year, at minimum.

Also glad to see you reach the same conclusion I posted on page 6, Max. You unoriginal bastard. Lol. Love you bro!

FFS people, it is clear these all came from Jeff (and perhaps it is now clear that he knew some were fake because Frank told him and then maybe still sold those same ones on), so that leads logically to only the following conclusions: (1) Jeff was making these in his basement in true Toy Toni fashion; (2) Jeff was so grossly irresponsible in not knowing that he was buying dozens and dozens of fake baggies and then selling on to others, but didn't actually make the baggies himself; or (3) Jeff reprehensibly knew he had tons of fake baggies that were bought elsewhere (i.e., he didn't make them himself) once he was told so, but sold them on to others anyway.

In any of (1) - (3), the dude should have been called out and this issue brought to light not only so people would know that these are out there, but also to avoid buying any more from Jeff.

 

[darth_daddius]

Not you at all Max I thought your posts were well thought out & you made some valid points, I think the biggest headache has been Joe (finestcomics) as we all know (sorry Edd), the argumentative confrontational nature of that particular members posts made getting on with this more promptly like wading through waist high treacle for a while.

I had left this thread for dead for reasons the site admin crossed the line in addressing my participation and involvement, but since you keep bringing me up repeatedly...

I only insisted on a revising the first post since two members of the investigation stated it was not going to be proven that Jeff made them. I wasn't the only person to remark in this thread that there was still a mention in the OP inferring he did. I asked three times for that revision, and even had to supply a screengrab because apparently it wasn't something anyone remembered you writing.

The request for clarification on the Fett baggie was because discussion began to emerge about culling these, and possibly destroying them or taking them out of circulation. As the original post made no specific mention if the touch-ups were the extent, I asked if the seals were factory originals. It was also suggested in the pdocast Jeff was going to send these off to UKG - my thought here was if Stephen Ward could confirm the seals were legit, I could offer to assess if a safe removal of the touch-ups was possible. In doing so, these would not be "fake" any longer. Again, this only made sense if the seals were correct - I wasn't asking for that to be answered on the spot if the person responding was unsure, but did ask for clarification for a reason.

If asking these things in an attempt to save something vintage from being destroyed, and trying to find a positive in this sordid situation makes me a troll, so be it.

But that was my intent. What you call argumentative overlooks the fact I was asking for clarification. I ask you to refrain from painting a picture here of something that isn't - repeating falsehoods doesn't make it any more true.

I'm done here.

I usually don't get into this stuff, but I'm afraid this has pushed me and I just don't buy it Joe. You were pretty happy to (very rightly) call out Adolfo and be cranky at people defending him on RS: http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1118796

However, when Frank - a very respected member of this forum - mans up to call Jeff out you were pretty scathing and unsupportive. On any other day, this would have been a 'Watch Out' post within which we always beg for names, etc. With the scale of the potential deception I think Frank, Edd and the guys did a stellar job. And, as it turns out, they were right on the money.

You were being pedantic. Regardless of whether he was manufacturing them or not, he was still knowingly selling fakes. The fact is, you got a bee in your bonnet (as you did with the Adolfo thread) and leapt in with all guns blazing. You may be done Joe, but the right thing to do is learn from it and say 'Oops - sorry'.

 

[edd_jedi]

I think the big point you were missing Joe is that this was not a touch up. A touch up is restoring something that was there before, eg colouring a tear in a cardback black again. The Kenner text on the Fett baggie was painted white to make it look like an ESB-B bag - it had no white on it before. That is not a touch up, it's trying to change the appearance/type of the bag. As many others seemed to agree, that falls under the umbrella of fake, not simply restoration.

Apologies for calling you a troll but at the time our energy could have been spent better elsewhere than arguing over the definition of fake.

 

[finestcomics]

I think the big point you were missing Joe is that this was not a touch up. A touch up is restoring something that was there before, eg colouring a tear in a cardback black again. The Kenner text on the Fett baggie was painted white to make it look like an ESB-B bag - it had no white on it before. That is not a touch up, it's trying to change the appearance/type of the bag. As many others seemed to agree, that falls under the umbrella of fake, not simply restoration.

Apologies for calling you a troll but at the time our energy could have been spent better elsewhere than arguing over the definition of fake.

Thanks Edd, and I apologize as well as it wasn't my intention to ruffle feathers. FWIW I appreciate you adding more context. If I didn't see a case for restoration removal, I woudn't have even bothered, but there is a chance (only if those seals are original) to return the baggie back to its original unaltered state. I've worked with paper and plastic and have a higher degree of confidence with the latter. Again, it was just meant as a way to find a positive out of this whole mess.

I'll leave it to you guys to carry on with this.

 

[theguiltyone]

Some of you here know me although most these days I suspect not.
I am part of the investigation group but I did request to have my name removed from the original post for the following reasons only:

Inclusion of the accusation that Jeff was making the baggies.
Inclusion of his photograph, any photos I took at FF were for the groups use only.
Inclusion that Palitoy Ks were under suspicion when UKG have graded some already, I believe this style needs a lot more looking into.


Focus on the evidence the guys have presented since the OP, there is a lot to take on board.

marc

 

[xbomber]

Not you at all Max I thought your posts were well thought out & you made some valid points, I think the biggest headache has been Joe (finestcomics) as we all know (sorry Edd), the argumentative confrontational nature of that particular members posts made getting on with this more promptly like wading through waist high treacle for a while.

I had left this thread for dead for reasons the site admin crossed the line in addressing my participation and involvement, but since you keep bringing me up repeatedly...

I only insisted on a revising the first post since two members of the investigation stated it was not going to be proven that Jeff made them. I wasn't the only person to remark in this thread that there was still a mention in the OP inferring he did. I asked three times for that revision, and even had to supply a screengrab because apparently it wasn't something anyone remembered you writing.

The request for clarification on the Fett baggie was because discussion began to emerge about culling these, and possibly destroying them or taking them out of circulation. As the original post made no specific mention if the touch-ups were the extent, I asked if the seals were factory originals. It was also suggested in the pdocast Jeff was going to send these off to UKG - my thought here was if Stephen Ward could confirm the seals were legit, I could offer to assess if a safe removal of the touch-ups was possible. In doing so, these would not be "fake" any longer. Again, this only made sense if the seals were correct - I wasn't asking for that to be answered on the spot if the person responding was unsure, but did ask for clarification for a reason.

If asking these things in an attempt to save something vintage from being destroyed, and trying to find a positive in this sordid situation makes me a troll, so be it.

But that was my intent. What you call argumentative overlooks the fact I was asking for clarification. I ask you to refrain from painting a picture here of something that isn't - repeating falsehoods doesn't make it any more true.

I'm done here.

I usually don't get into this stuff, but I'm afraid this has pushed me and I just don't buy it Joe. You were pretty happy to (very rightly) call out Adolfo and be cranky at people defending him on RS: http://forum.rebelscum.com/showthread.php?t=1118796

However, when Frank - a very respected member of this forum - mans up to call Jeff out you were pretty scathing and unsupportive. On any other day, this would have been a 'Watch Out' post within which we always beg for names, etc. With the scale of the potential deception I think Frank, Edd and the guys did a stellar job. And, as it turns out, they were right on the money.

You were being pedantic. Regardless of whether he was manufacturing them or not, he was still knowingly selling fakes. The fact is, you got a bee in your bonnet (as you did with the Adolfo thread) and leapt in with all guns blazing. You may be done Joe, but the right thing to do is learn from it and say 'Oops - sorry'.

Can we focus back on the topic at hand now as opposed to unrelated incidents and how people should or shouldn't have reacted to the initial bombshell?

 

[lee gray]

This use to be a happy place.
I have just reread every post inc mine for the past 4 hours.

I can understand Frank being annoyed when he was exposing a scammer and alot of people didnt give him any slack.

Rereading my posts my biggest concern was Jeff should be able to defend himself where hes a member but always stated in several of those same posts that he could be dodgy or guilty and never once said he was innocent.

Again it comes down to what we knew then and what we know now.

I have always liked Frank and think Frank is cool and think his ID is great.

Now although i wasnt a **** slinger or a nayer i may have come across a bit uncooperative which i appologize to Frank for.

You have done a great job Frank and the others who shall not be called the team as momike dont like lol and no matter what Jeff may say or do now theres just too much evidence against him.

 

[80s_collector]

Basically, look at all the baggies for sale throughout the world, loads of them, look on the internet, at the shows, all over the world theres many of them on the market and there has been so many for sale over the last 15 years or a bit longer..........why....?

Simple, because people started collecting them and wanted mint figures in a sealed plastic bag and were willing to pay big bucks for them because people believe they are rare......theyre not rare they are unique as most were never put into production by the toy companies, they have been or still are being made and this has been happening for 15-20 years on and off due to the fact that the market is full of collectors willing to pay and find something nobody else has got.

Back in the day as you all say, in the 1980s, early 90s, there wasnt any hardly.....apart from the American playset figures, early bird figures and a few different mail away issues........none of them were about.

Years ago Ive sold many sealed cases of the normal baggies, emperors, anakins, dengars, a few fetts, 100s of loose ones and ones in their white card boxes, mixed cases, many bought from warehouses, from collections, dealers and on market stalls too, but sorry to say there were no last 17 figures (unless they came out of playsets) there were never the variants there is on the market today and that isnt cos now we have the internet and the world is small, its always been small and the internet just made it faster......Back in the day we had Toy Shop newspapers, loads of mags from here and abroard, we still dealt across the globe using bankers drafts and telephones......

The Toy shop newspaper was £100 a year for a subscription and was like a printed version of Ebay.

Go back to the 80s/90s and consider one main point, when any baggie was £1, £2 or maybe a fiver.......tons came to the surface due to the fact that nobody could give them away basically, but only the normal 15-30 different ones surfaced that we still see today, nobody wanted them, nobody cared about that little bag with writing on it, the items were basically worthless............but years later there is a market and where there are takers, there will be makers and thats the world we live in.

So many of the baggies on the market today could have been made yesterday, 40 years ago or 15 years ago, who knows.....I personally never had a customer base for baggies years ago, but I know a few people who thankfully arent in the game now who used to buy any baggies off me years ago and in front of my own eyes they would swap the figures around.

So good luck to the buyers and the seller and hopefully everyone will end up smiling again......its toys afterall...

P.S Always stick to buying Vintage Star Wars carded figures from very reputable long term dealers and you wont go far wrong...

 

[Ian_C]

P.S Always stick to buying Vintage Star Wars carded figures from very reputable long term dealers and you wont go far wrong...

With all due respect, this thread is about what you just said.

It seems that until this past week, Jeff was considered a "very reputable dealer".

Before him (and not saying they are 100% the same), Toy Toni was pretty reputable too. Same with Scott McWilliams, Billy Boy, etc.

All of the above have certainly "gone wrong".

Ian

 

[Michael Sith]

To nail your colours to the mast,
And suffer slings and arrows your way cast,
Is testament to commitment and to seeing things through,
To put forward a message that is plain and true,
Many would turn aside, or on the way falter,
If that was the case then things would not alter,
Thank you for bringing your case to the fore,
Even though it may shake the hobby to its core,
Truth will tell as it does in the end,
Hats of to those who principle and moral will defend.

 

[tiefighterboy]

So all baggies are fake unless they surfaced during the pre internet toyshop magazine days??? Not sure about that. Was collecting back in those days and while baggies were cheap so was a bunch of other things. Hell so much stuff surfaces daily that was unknown about back then it is mind boggling. I would not go so far as to say what we knew of back then is it and everything else is recently manufactured..even baggies.

 

[80s_collector]

So all baggies are fake unless they surfaced during the pre internet toyshop magazine days??? Not sure about that. Was collecting back in those days and while baggies were cheap so was a bunch of other things. Hell so much stuff surfaces daily that was unknown about back then it is mind boggling. I would not go so far as to say what we knew of back then is it and everything else is recently manufactured..even baggies.

Oh yes I agree with you all the way on that one, I dont say Ive seen it all by a long way and your right, things surface across the world daily...

What I was really stating was that back in the day when so many SW items were readily available that we only saw the normal production items and a few items from sales reps, kenner or palitoy staff etc,etc and using the baggies as a good example we only saw a small selection of the baggies back then that are on the market in later years.

For example its like saying that years ago there were 96 different production figures on the market.......but now there are 500 different ones, why wouldnt we have seen the other 404 figures years ago.....if a product was made in 1977, you would see at least one in 1978, 79, 80 and 1981.....but when they only turn up on the market 20 or 30 years later you would wonder why..