Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

[edd_jedi]

Same here, however we live in a litigious world, and with people here already suggesting the libelous nature of these claims, we might never hear anything from the other side.

I can think of at least two instances in the SW collecting community where a person accused of serious wrongdoing didn't say a word (except, to say they were told to keep mum as per their lawyers advice) and we were left with never knowing the full story.

Sorry to refer to Toni again, but how an incident like this is handled is in my eyes sometimes more important than the incident itself. I was one of the people who thought Toni may have started out making his cards relatively harmlessly in the 90s when nobody gave a crap, and it simply got out of hand. If he had admitted guilt and apologised, something good could have come from it - eg all his unused cradbacks going in to circulation which I'm sure collectors would love to get their hands on.

However he admitted nothing, denied it despite the concrete evidence and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Now his name is forever tarnished. We all make mistakes, it could have been avoided with a simple apology, explanation and some refunds. I am eager to see how this plays out as his reputation is not finished yet.

 

[Ross_Barr]

Same here, however we live in a litigious world, and with people here already suggesting the libelous nature of these claims, we might never hear anything from the other side.

I can think of at least two instances in the SW collecting community where a person accused of serious wrongdoing didn't say a word (except, to say they were told to keep mum as per their lawyers advice) and we were left with never knowing the full story.

Sorry to refer to Toni again, but how an incident like this is handled is in my eyes sometimes more important than the incident itself. I was one of the people who thought Toni may have started out making his cards relatively harmlessly in the 90s when nobody gave a crap, and it simply got out of hand. If he had admitted guilt and apologised, something good could have come from it - eg all his unused cradbacks going in to circulation which I'm sure collectors would love to get their hands on.

However he admitted nothing, denied it despite the concrete evidence and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Now his name is forever tarnished. We all make mistakes, it could have been avoided with a simple apology, explanation and some refunds. I am eager to see how this plays out as his reputation is not finished yet.

If Jeff has nothing to hide and is innocent, he will come on and say why he is. As I said before, at minimum, he is guilty of carelessness by introducing scores of fakes into the hobby. Carelessness can be forgiven quickly; we are all human. But if this goes beyond carelessness and enters the realm of scamming (i.e., he made the fake baggies) / intent to knowingly pass on his purchase of fakes onto others (i.e., he didn't make the baggies but knew they were fake before he sold them on), forgiveness will be a much harder sell.

 

[finestcomics]

Same here, however we live in a litigious world, and with people here already suggesting the libelous nature of these claims, we might never hear anything from the other side.

I can think of at least two instances in the SW collecting community where a person accused of serious wrongdoing didn't say a word (except, to say they were told to keep mum as per their lawyers advice) and we were left with never knowing the full story.

Sorry to refer to Toni again, but how an incident like this is handled is in my eyes sometimes more important than the incident itself. I was one of the people who thought Toni may have started out making his cards relatively harmlessly in the 90s when nobody gave a crap, and it simply got out of hand. If he had admitted guilt and apologised, something good could have come from it - eg all his unused cradbacks going in to circulation which I'm sure collectors would love to get their hands on.

However he admitted nothing, denied it despite the concrete evidence and then disappeared off the face of the earth. Now his name is forever tarnished. We all make mistakes, it could have been avoided with a simple apology, explanation and some refunds. I am eager to see how this plays out as his reputation is not finished yet.

I'm not saying there wasn't a need to deal with the situation urgently. I normally side with the intent of protecting the community trumping all else.

However in this case, this could have just as effectively been handled by posting the alert with no name, with the same visual examples for reference, and an advisory asking any members who had these to get in touch with members involved with the investigation.

At that point, when you started to see a signficant pattern of people who bought these directly from Jeff, you STILL should involve the seller in the process of remediation and rectifying the problem. The rectification could have ranged from requesting refunds, right through to warning the seller that escalating the matter publicly would be a last resort if eiher the pattern or matter wasn't resolved to the teams satisfcation.

To have done this any other way was unwise.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

I think this has been handled appallingly and am shocked to see certain names in this thread just taking everything as gospel that Jeff is sitting at home putting figures into plastic bags rather than waiting to see the whole picture.

Something some of you are overlooking - many of these fake baggies have been returned to Jeff for refunds over the last couple of years. Frank has had many conversations with Jeff about fake baggies. Yet still he continues to sell them, in some cases even reselling the ones that he's been told are fake as per Frank's first example. So even if Jeff is not actually making these himself, he certainly knows baggies he has been selling are fake. IMO that goes beyond selling without due care.

Just want to state a couple of points as I get the feeling it maybe coming across that I'm defending Jeff. I'm not, I have met the bloke a couple of times at Farthest From and probably had less than 5 minutes worth of conversation with the bloke, so this isn't me defending anything.
Secondly, the evidence in the initial post has been made by frank, who I regard as the most knowledgeable baggie expert. I know nothing about Baggies, I own two and to be fair I don't care too much for them, so as a collector point of view it doesn't effect me directly. if Frank tells me a baggie is fake then in my mind it's fake, there has clearly been a lot of work into this investigation and I like most on this thread appreciate the time and effort gone into researching this issue and revealing it.
I also don't doubt that Jeff has been selling these items (willingly or not knowingly), Marc pointed out two fakes on his stall at the recent FF and Jeff removed them from sale, so again I have no issue with the accusation that he offers up these fake baggies.

My question is; Is he actually knowingly selling fakes, or does he not really know what he is selling? Is he like the rest of us and just assumed all baggies are legit and collected them, traded them and sold them without knowing???

My issue was the way this was handled and revealed, yes I agree it needed to come to light, and it states that they have been researching for years (think that's what I read). Last night Frank states he spoke with Jeff for an hour and a half, why couldn't the reveal of this happen after that call so the details of that call could be included in this report??? What was said in the call, we still haven't heard that either. My issue and only issue was the handling of the affair and the statement that Jeff must be making these as he has too many to not know. I don't bye that and won't grab my pitchfork until Jeff has had the chance to respond, and I don't doubt for a minute that he will respond.

Question that I would be interested in knowing, the baggie that Jeff was told was fake and then apparently sold 6 months later, do we have hard evidence that can be produced for this??? because that wouldn't sit comfortably for me.

 

[maxf]

At that point, when you started to see a signficant pattern of people who bought these directly from Jeff, you STILL should involve the seller in the process of remediation and rectifying the problem. The rectification could have ranged from requesting refunds, right through to warning the seller that escalating the matter publicly would be a last resort if eiher the pattern or matter wasn't resolved to the teams satisfcation.

To have done this any other way was unwise.

The danger is, and I am playing devils advocate here, that the people who know about get refunds and by the time it gets to the public the money has dried up. I salute Frank and the others involved for not going down this road.

Its a difficult one. I'm really on the fence and can persuade myself either way. **** sandwich anyway.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

I just want to say that I think it's absolutely correct that the known source of the fakes is named. It's not going to be helpful to the community if people are told there are fakes, but not told where they originate from, and the forum would be up in arms demanding a name. Additionally, if left un-named it would have left the seller open to continue to trade around the blatantly fake products, and shift the stock quick to unknowing customers until publicly outed, which would have happened eventually. Better sooner rather than later in my opinion.

This is exactly the kind of idiotic response I'm talking about. 'Not told where they originate from', this may well not be known, you're reading the thread and hanging the bloke for the crime before he's been tried, we don't know these fakes originate from Jeff, just that he had these for sale.

'Shift the stock quickly to unknown customers', again we have no evidence he does this, unless their is concrete evidence of the one mentioned in the initial thread. He removed two from sale at FF when pointed out and I know when there has been any doubt on the baggies he has always given a refund.

Sadly it's people like you who read half the thread and fill in the gaps that cause issues. Want facts and not gut feelings and then I will grab my pitchfork too.

 

[cryption]

I'm amazed the suggestion that the wording and content of the post is 'more important' than the actual criminal actions here, and some people seem to be focusing more on that than the fakes, which is pretty shocking.
Just because it was not handled the way you would have handled it does not mean is was handled wrongly. The wrongdoing here is the sale of fraudulent goods. Don't lose sight of the actual issue in favor of defending someone who is well aware of the thread but has not as of yet bothered to offer any explanation or defend himself.
How about showing some appreciation for those who took the time to do the research and make the post for the benefit of the entire community, instead of criticizing the way it was done.

 

[cryption]

I just want to say that I think it's absolutely correct that the known source of the fakes is named. It's not going to be helpful to the community if people are told there are fakes, but not told where they originate from, and the forum would be up in arms demanding a name. Additionally, if left un-named it would have left the seller open to continue to trade around the blatantly fake products, and shift the stock quick to unknowing customers until publicly outed, which would have happened eventually. Better sooner rather than later in my opinion.

This is exactly the kind of idiotic response I'm talking about. 'Not told where they originate from', this may well not be known, you're reading the thread and hanging the bloke for the crime before he's been tried, we don't know these fakes originate from Jeff, just that he had these for sale.

'Shift the stock quickly to unknown customers', again we have no evidence he does this, unless their is concrete evidence of the one mentioned in the initial thread. He removed two from sale at FF when pointed out and I know when there has been any doubt on the baggies he has always given a refund.

Sadly it's people like you who read half the thread and fill in the gaps that cause issues. Want facts and not gut feelings and then I will grab my pitchfork too.

I'd love to hear your explanation and rebuttal of the evidence in the first place, be my guest. And with a posts like this the only person I see causing issues here is you.

 

[finestcomics]

At that point, when you started to see a signficant pattern of people who bought these directly from Jeff, you STILL should involve the seller in the process of remediation and rectifying the problem. The rectification could have ranged from requesting refunds, right through to warning the seller that escalating the matter publicly would be a last resort if eiher the pattern or matter wasn't resolved to the teams satisfcation.

To have done this any other way was unwise.

The danger is, and I am playing devils advocate here, that the people who know about get refunds and by the time it gets to the public the money has dried up. I salute Frank and the others involved for not going down this road.

Its a difficult one. I'm really on the fence and can persuade myself either way. **** sandwich anyway.

The remediation factor isn't going to change either way - the person either has it in them to make wronged parties whole or they don't.

The tactic to ignore customer complaints until a lawyer is involved, then capitulate usually follows a more serious and stern redress and reaction from the community.

But here Jeff wasn't even given the chance to make the situation right, IF we are to assume that all these came from him as that remains an uncertainty.

Years ago, I dealt with a reputable dealer who sold me a touched-up item. The item came from a backstock he bought from another dealer. I was told that the "other dealer" had a son who was an aspring artist, and would take these items to practice his craft/technique.

As ridiculous as that situation sounded to me, I still gave that dealer an opportunity to make the situation right, but for whatever reason it wasn't taken serious. You have to understand, this was not only a reputable person, but someone who I had a tremendous amount of respect and admiration. I had interviewed him for past articles I had written on his rich involvement in the hobby, so when I had no choice but to escalate it publicly, THAT was a difficult thing to do. But I did it only after he didn't take my request for a refund seriously, and because it was more effective in alerting others of the issue. It also gave me a chance to advise those entering into a transaction with the seller to make sure a condition is specified in their transaction terms that he must offer a refund on any stock that is later found to be touched-up.

There's a process to everything. Sometimes it takes rolling-up the sleeve. I take exception though when it's handled swiftly and overlooks remedies that ought to be exhausted before maligning a persons image, character and integrity publicly.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

I'm amazed the suggestion that the wording and content of the post is 'more important' than the actual criminal actions here, and some people seem to be focusing more on that than the fakes, which is pretty shocking.
Just because it was not handled the way you would have handled it does not mean is was handled wrongly. The wrongdoing here is the sale of fraudulent goods. Don't lose sight of the actual issue in favor of defending someone who is well aware of the thread but has not as of yet bothered to offer any explanation or defend himself.
How about showing some appreciation for those who took the time to do the research and make the post for the benefit of the entire community, instead of criticizing the way it was done.

You want to maybe read the posts a bit more, not once have I defended him. I have also stated that I appreciate the work that has gone into this investigation. But we do not know that Jeff was the one producing these items which you elude to in your initial post. I would like to hear from Jeff first to see if he can enlighten us on the gaps in the story, rather than filling in the gaps myself.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

Don't shoot the messenger!

This 'suspected' fake baggie scam - it does say the word 'suspected' in the thread title - has been brought to all our attention. The manner in which it was brought up is done and in the past, and as Tarkin says bickering is pointless.

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. Jeff, would suggest you make a clear statement - and very much hope you will be a good human being and offer return / refund to anyone who has bought something you sold that is shown to be wrong.

 

[Stuart Skinner]

Don't shoot the messenger!

This 'suspected' fake baggie scam - it does say the word 'suspected' in the thread title - has been brought to all our attention. The manner in which it was brought up is done and in the past, and as Tarkin says bickering is pointless.

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. Jeff, would suggest you make a clear statement - and very much hope you will be a good human being and offer return / refund to anyone who has bought something you sold that is shown to be wrong.

Agree, I wont mention the issue of way it has been delivered again, made my feelings clear on that.

I am of the understanding that Jeff will be addressing this situation in the future.

 

[Floody]

Looks like this is not a new thing on here

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19041

 

[lee gray]

If Jeff has indeed been reading this (and still no one has confirmed whether or not he's a forum member) really the explanation from him is what we are now waiting for. .

Yeah it seens to have been mentioned several times now and noone has confirmed he is as yet. Hopefully he is because if not how can he try to defend himself.

Being told u r selling fakes and still selling them as genuine is just as bad as producing them

 

[greedodidntshoot]

First I want to praise Frank for the tremendous amount of effort that went into the investigation. The list of folks that contributed to the effort will agree with me when I say that we operated more as a support network for Frank's incredibly tedious and time consuming endeavor to bring this matter in light. I can tell you first hand that it was not a small undertaking. As has already been said, Frank's passion for and knowledge of the Baggie area of the hobby is unquestionable.
With regards to how the public disclosure of this information was handled and the displeasure that many are having, I have this to say. The decision was made with the best interest of the community as a whole being first and foremost. The evidence was presented in a matter of fact fashion and the person behind the issue was named so that everyone could draw their own conclusion. The number of victims is a question mark as there is no telling who or how many have purchased fakes. By presenting the evidence in a public forum, perhaps additional evidence will come to light one way or the other.
I think that if this was some unknown or even lesser known person (suspect), there would be no one questioning the public disclosure. Just because Jeff is a respected collector or friend does not mean that he deserves special treatment in my opinion. I can say first had that in more cases than not, family members and friends of confirmed/convicted criminal suspects would never suspect that their loved one or friend would be capable of the things they've been convicted of doing. It's either they don't want to believe it or are utterly shocked into denial. For those friends of Jeff - everyone makes mistakes and its natural and respectable that you want to stand behind your friend. I further think it's respectable and understandable that some will continue to stand behind a friend even when the truth turns out to be what they didn't want to believe. That being said, I feel that Jeff owes it to the community (his friends being at the top of the list) to respond with the truth. Everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do when you make the mistake that is the true measure of one's character.

 

[naughtyjedi]

I'm amazed the suggestion that the wording and content of the post is 'more important' than the actual criminal actions here, and some people seem to be focusing more on that than the fakes, which is pretty shocking.
Just because it was not handled the way you would have handled it does not mean is was handled wrongly. The wrongdoing here is the sale of fraudulent goods. Don't lose sight of the actual issue in favor of defending someone who is well aware of the thread but has not as of yet bothered to offer any explanation or defend himself.
How about showing some appreciation for those who took the time to do the research and make the post for the benefit of the entire community, instead of criticizing the way it was done.

I have no idea about baggies. Reading Frank's message I have no reason to doubt him. I have no idea if Jeff is guilty of manufacturing or purchasing or both. No idea. I've spoken with jeff for about 2 mins at FF. I have no loyalty to him or Frank..

HOWEVER no matter the guilt or innocence surely surely surely Jeff has a right to be addressed off record and asked, "we are pissed about this, this is the evidence we have" then and only then go public. (on a platform of his membership). Not everyone has the time or inclination for social media. For what we see in the thread and what follows Jeff appears to have been judged for manufacturing and supply.

I hope if people have been ripped off then money is returned. AND i praise the research done. Phenomenal

I have taken no side. And I hope Jeff comes here and answers to the accusations. But I shant be heaping scorn until I hear what he has to say.

 

[Frunkstar]

Everyone makes mistakes, it's what you do when you make the mistake that is the true measure of one's character.

The above is the nail on the head! & that door swings both ways, if I am wrong regarding anything I will be the first to stand up & admit my fault.

I have been busy most of today hence not getting on to answer any sooner, all I would like to say for now is that I don't want to say anything further as I would like Jeff to have the opportunity to come on & tell the other side of the story before I commit to answering many of the points raised here by many, I do not think he's a registered member of the forum, but he does read the forum as he uses my guide frequently & I think you can answer posts as a guest, if that is not the case I have already told Jeff it's a simple case of taking 2 minutes to to join the forum, so either way he has access to come on & put forward anything he wishes to say on the matter which I do hope he does, as one of you pointed out I put the word "suspected" in the title & before the word fake in every paragraph for good reason.

If for whatever reason Jeff is unwilling to come on to discus the matter on a public platform with the next week (7 days from today) which under the circumstances I feel is an adequate time frame I will do my utmost to answer any & all questions to the best of my ability.

The only other point I wish to comment on is the red text baggies which Stuart brought up which is a very valid point that needs addressing, I have not yet checked my emails to see if I have it in black & white to confirm or if it was done on the phone, though I know images were sent so I presume I have it, I will be sifting through to find out as soon as I can which will be asap so I can confirm, I always save all relevant emails.

 

[Cymonguk]

I first became suspicious when he offered me some baggies with red text on them which I confirmed were fake or re-bagged from another toy line, I presumed that was the end of those baggies & they would be opened & the baggies discarded, sadly about 6 months or so later the guy had them listed for sale on his ebay account even though he knew they were not correct,

This is the biggest concern I think, re-listing known fakes, lets hope it is not indicative for those people who have bought from him. One would think it would be very difficult for him to be able to refund every person who may have bought from him, and that definitely excludes any people who might be buying from another person in a long line of sales, etc.

Even if it is a mistake, then its is going to be difficult for him to repair the damage to the hobby and the community. I feel more sorry for those people who have bought these than I do Jeff, if he was unsure about such a very specific area it may be best to avoid, especially given that numerous people had pointed out to him that he had fake baggies (on ebay and his stall). It might have been prudent to contact someone like Frank and ask for advice on your whole stock. Hindsight though is a wonderful thing.

 

[spoons]

Looks like this is not a new thing on here

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19041

people seemed to have missed Floody's post - definitely worth quoting

 

[lee gray]

It would have been good to post this where hes an an actual member so atleast he could defend himself.

If hes guilty though then good job .

 

[finestcomics]

Just thought I'd post this as I had SW B baggies and the orientation of the 3P0 and lack of contrast made it a bit difficult to see the differences as even the real Stormie has some slight ink loss (incidentally, one of the baggies I also own). I tweaked the contrast on the 3P0 as the "HONG" was too faded, so I could at least get a better look at MADE IN KO to compare with mine.

You can see the more pronounced weight/thickness of the "K", but there's a strike/registration/misalignment with it, that is more pronounced with the first letters of MADE overlapping (could be an anomoly of the photo itself, but it looks as if there's a drop shadow effect on it). Almost as if it was restamped/restruck because it didn't make a strong enough ink impression on the first attempt.

 

[Ian_C]

I can't speak to the fakes themselves, as I am not a baggie collector, thus I have limited experience/knowledge with them.

What I can say is that threads like these are what makes our hobby so great at times. People look out for each other. No one questions the motivation of the people involved in the initial post. There is at least one lawyer I know of that contributed to this, so any legalities are largely covered, and shouldn't really be in question, aside from possible differences in jurisdictions.

I also don't know the seller in question, so there is no reason to be in denial of wrongdoing. Sadly, I see that some are reluctant to believe any of this as they know the seller personally. The same thing has happened in the past, when once highly respected collectors (and friends of other well-respected collectors) get outed on shady activity.

Nothing in the previous 8 pages directly indicates the seller manufactured them. In that regard, it's not so good he was linked to their manufacture. On the other side, there is damning evidence about him knowingly selling them. Examples have been provided where he was shown items were fake - and he sold them at a later date with no mention of it. It appears the numbers that have been sold that can be traced back to being sold by him number in the hundreds. Considering no other major baggie seller has this kind of selling history, and any high volume seller should know their inventory inside out, then at a minimum he can be outed as a seller of known fakes. As someone else has said, that is almost as bad as making them himself. The other thing of note is that with so many being sourced directly to him, then it becomes clear that the strong inference is either he made them, or has a direct supplier that deals exclusively with him. Unfortunately, the answer to that one will likely never be known unless he admits to it.

The thing that makes this look even shadier, in my opinion, is that like the smartest scammers, he sells them alongside legit ones. It adds to his own legitimacy, as he can point to all the real ones he has sold. The pattern would be to make a name for oneself, then slowly increase the fakes as his reputation grows and the fakes are not discovered.

The end result is that another niche area of collecting now has a dark cloud hanging over it, making it a much harder area to collect.

Ian

 

[Frunkstar]

Jeff has put a reply up in the baggie group I help admin on face book, I told him on the phone it was not the place to say what he needs to say & it needs to be put on here as it's a more permanent format, I have responded to his message & turned off commenting on the post & advised that it is here he needs to put forward his side of the story.

His reply is there on the pinned post if anyone wishes to view it, but please can I ask you keep any comments on here, any further discussion on the FB group will be closed immediately as it's not the right format for this kind of thing IMO.

 

[Lom]

Jeff has put a reply up in the baggie group I help admin on face book, I told him on the phone it was not the place to say what he needs to say & it needs to be put on here as it's a more permanent format, I have responded to his message & turned off commenting on the post & advised that it is here he needs to put forward his side of the story.

His reply is there on the pinned post if anyone wishes to view it, but please can I ask you keep any comments on here, any further discussion on the FB group will be closed immediately as it's not the right format for this kind of thing IMO.

Frank, could you put a link or copy it for those of us without Facebook please?

 

[edd_jedi]

Here's what Jeff put on FB (I have edited out a few accidental double posts)

Hi Guys!

Im here to say my piece and weather your with me or not thats for you to decide? Some of you will know me as i have sold shed loads of starwars stuff on and off ebay for near 10 years now. Not just baggie, I have been collecting mainly starwars baggies since the late 90;s and had at one point over 1000 baggies . I have sold many to some of you guys and become very good friends having the plesure of meeting some of you recently in person at the FF show .My good friend asked me along to sell my excess stock last year and i have been welcomed back since. I hope this issues does not damage this relation i have with these guys as im so upset with how this has been done .Now im here to say my piece as most of all know by now im being outted as a faker. I had been accumalating baggies mainly via ebay and private sales and recently over the last 3 years been switching to collecting carded figs as i have noted alot of my bagged figures were starting to perish/spilt /dry ect and decided that i would start to sell all these excess stock i have as really do i need these many baggies sitting in boxes in the loft?? So thats the main reason i have sold so many not that i have been making them thats maddness . I have sold many of these so called fakes to Frank mewesway back and he accepted them so had no reason to deem them as any thing but genuine. I know one of my soures was a guy called Gratson cant remeber his first name but spent £1000's of pounds with him which is the source of most of my SW-a , b and d, which the text is not right i been told and only found out last night.

If i had know there was an issues when this witch hunt started some months back and someone had the gump to contact with knowing this issues then i could of actted on it sooner but no my good friends some of you here decided to undercover and expose me as a possible fake , well im not and any of you are welcome to my house and see my collection any time as i have no intrest and have not the time in doing so. I run a family bussiness with my parents and have 2 childern to look after full time so i can tell you i have little time to myself which when i do is spent surfing for more starwars related bargain i can add to my growing collection. As many of you know i have family in the stataes and therefore have a gateway to buy stuff that Ebay.com users dont allow us folk in the Uk to buy which is a fair bit of missed baggie opt. Any qustions any of you have please feel free to ask or email me at [email protected] i would give my mobile no too but been not to for time reasons but would of been happy to do so. I also happy to refund anyone who can give me a valid reason for a return but please note that because of this post it has left me with loads of teaxts and emails from worried buyers and quite righly so. I thank those who know me well for there support and yes i agree this has been done wrong with posting ugly mug up there for all to see is very wrong. Frank i thought you would of knoew better regards etiquette when naming people with this kind of info. there is so much more i want to say but have to go as im at work and am needed else where. i will finish this later and most likely answing your questions. just to let you guys know i have been put on stop with PayPal due to this posting as from this morning so im unable to refund anyone but hoping to get it lifted .i will see everyone gets a refund but please you will need to give me time as i expect some of you will demard one weather you think these are fake or genuine. Please be kind and i will respond Asap. Thanks Jeff P.s sorry there is no spell check on this dam thing so you will have work out what i said if it dont read right.

 

[turkdlit]

I don't think that response by Jeff is adequate as far as shedding any light to the source of the baggies. It's nice to offer refunds and your email but saying you dont have a lot of time due to family constraints and saying you simply bought a ton of baggies doesn't address:

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?

The FB post simply doesn't answer any of the core concerns that collectors have regarding this whole shitshow. And saying this was a witch hunt by Frank suggests he has something personal against Jeff, which I don't believe is accurate- I think his heart is in the right place.

 

[trappedtexan]

I don't ever post over here, but some of you may know me from RS or TIG.

I don't understand this bashing on Frank for the way this was handled. Did toy Toni get contacted prior to being outed in a forum? Did Billyboy? Scott McWilliams? No, that's not how information comes to light. Frank and others saw fakes being passed around and they did contact him at least regarding the red text baggies if I am reading this right. He then removed the fake items to only list them again later.

This guy is no different from the ones I noted above, in fact want to see the similarities to the one involving baggies?

Billyboy:
Aquired from a source
Upset over how he was ousted
continued to sell fake items after being told they were fake
willing to refund


Jeff:
Aquired from a source
Upset over how he was ousted
Continued to sell fake items (i.e. red text baggies) after being told they were fake
willing to refund

This guy has friends in the community just as these others did. Now he says his paypal has been frozen? I am sure that may be true. People filing claims when there is no balance in there will freeze the account. There were die hard friends who stood by some of these other guys also if you read through some of the old threads regarding them. I think given the amount of information that was looked at Frank and the others handled this most appropriately especially given that the seller was continuing to sell these fake items. Also he has collected baggies how long? Many years according to his own response (the 90's so now going on 27 years), yet he didn't see that three different baggie types he has in hand were fakes until he was told last night? I don't know if he is the manufacturer of these, but frankly I expected this type of response. I mean what does he gain from saying yes I knew or yes I did it? Nothing. What does he gain from denying it and trying to throw it onto a "source"? He gets to keep selling. As others have said regardless of his part in the overall, lets not cloud the issue of his being told he had fakes and selling them, and this isn't even the first time he has been outed with fakes. Some of you said he had them at a convention and the previous linked thread in here where Joe posted about his having fakes also. The Joe thread is years old, so has the same source been selling him fakes for years and he has continued to buy them? I mean come on.....getting burned on one batch of fakes as a seller surely he would check things a bit closer in future transactions.

 

[fuzzybuzzytoys]

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
Not addressed

2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
eBay. Majority brought from 'Gratson'

3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?
He clearly said no and that claim was madness

 

[Frunkstar]

Just done some digging through emails & I do have the info regarding the red text baggies & am happy to do screen shots if needed to confirm.

 

[xbomber]

I don't think that response by Jeff is adequate as far as shedding any light to the source of the baggies. It's nice to offer refunds and your email but saying you dont have a lot of time due to family constraints and saying you simply bought a ton of baggies doesn't address:

1. Why were previously outed fake bags then reposted/resold as legit ones
2. Where did the majority of the baggies come from and was there a single large source of fake ones bought elsewhere
3. The simple answer the the question: did Jeff directly manufacture and create fake baggies, yes or no?

The FB post simply doesn't answer any of the core concerns that collectors have regarding this whole shitshow. And saying this was a witch hunt by Frank suggests he has something personal against Jeff, which I don't believe is accurate- I think his heart is in the right place.

Sounds like Jeff has started to cover #2 and #3 in the above. #1 remains a good question (arguably the only smoking gun here) and could impact people's ability to believe the rest of the account.

The thing for me is the "so what" factor. It's going to be impossible to prove or disprove his position as he's now set it out. IE he's flogging a load of baggies for a valid reason and most of them may have come from this American chap that he can't really remember.

Is it likely? No.
Can it be disproved? No.