Important info on Potential Toy Toni carded figure scam.

[mr_palitoy]

Thought I would add what I know with 15 years of collecting experience and having been around the block.

I used to talk to Toni often and got quite friendly, I even met him down at Sandown. I never had any issues and he gave me first choice on a collection he landed with probably the finest conditioned set of 30 and 41 backs I have seen. Many of which Gary Smith and Jay Rathour ended up with.

I do recall a long conversation probably back around 2004/5 about how someone was accusing him of fixing bubbles to cards, he seemed genuinely shocked. I remember he joked about how ridiculous the very notion of someone still producing new Palitoy carded figures. Interesting to know who that was, maybe Jason Joiner.

I am in no doubt that anything Toni had from 45a and earlier is extremely unlikely to have been tampered with. I recall he used to have multiple 45a Star Destroyer Commanders, obviously 45a Black Bespin Guards and 41 Han Hoths. All had varying degrees of wear. The Hans had creases and the BBGs had yellowed bubbles, which is consistent with all the ones I have seen since.

Toni used to acquire his figures from local auction houses, contacts and because of his advert in model and collectors mart he would get collections offered to him. There may be huge doubts over the stuff in Jason's list but a lot of the stuff he sold was genuine.

Andy

Thanks for your insight Andy. I have no doubts he sold a lot of genuine stuff as well as he was a big scale dealer. He sold a lot of Tri logo too which is legit.

Cheers Jason

 

[palitoyjunky]

Personally i dont think that anything linked to Toni with regards to Palitoy can be trusted 100%. I know he had crap loads of Kenner carded aswell, but those were legit. As far as Palitoy and GM,s cards go, it will forever be conjecture. Thats why i dont follow or beleive checklists that have been assembled since this all came out because in my eyes they are scaremongering and putting out incorrect information which is very dangerous.

I also beleive Toni had Palitoy logo unused cardbacks too, but again thats just my own opinion...

Sorry can I ask why you 'believe' Tony had unused Palitoy logo cardbacks? Do you have any evidence to support this?
I can understand how Tony got hold of Jedi cardbacks after the Palitoy factory closed in 1985. As we know there were a lot of Jedi produced compared to SW and Empire and what with that plus the life of SW toys sort of coming to an end at that time there was a lot of unsold factory/shop stock-hence why we c many Jedi pieces in fantastic condition today But surely during the SW and Empire era with the demand outweighing the supply I wouldn't have expected one to get hold of unused cardbacks :?

As said by other members I don't really think u can make statements without having any real evidence to back U up. I have been in the game getting on for 20 years and know a fair few serious Palitoy collectors but have never heard or seen anything to support your foul play beliefs regarding logo Palitoy MOCs :!:

Your statements may well cause ill deserved scaremongering :!:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Personally i dont think that anything linked to Toni with regards to Palitoy can be trusted 100%. I know he had crap loads of Kenner carded aswell, but those were legit. As far as Palitoy and GM,s cards go, it will forever be conjecture. Thats why i dont follow or beleive checklists that have been assembled since this all came out because in my eyes they are scaremongering and putting out incorrect information which is very dangerous.

I also beleive Toni had Palitoy logo unused cardbacks too, but again thats just my own opinion...

Sorry can I ask why you 'believe' Tony had unused Palitoy logo cardbacks? Do you have any evidence to support this?
I can understand how Tony got hold of Jedi cardbacks after the Palitoy factory closed in 1985. As we know there were a lot of Jedi produced compared to SW and Empire and what with that plus the life of SW toys sort of coming to an end at that time there was a lot of unsold factory/shop stock-hence why we c many Jedi pieces in fantastic condition today But surely during the SW and Empire era with the demand outweighing the supply I wouldn't have expected one to get hold of unused cardbacks :?

As said by other members I don't really think u can make statements without having any real evidence to back U up. I have been in the game getting on for 20 years and know a fair few serious Palitoy collectors but have never heard or seen anything to support your foul play beliefs regarding logo Palitoy MOCs :!:

Your statements may well cause ill deserved scaremongering :!:

Lee posted the same accusations on a separate thread which he has since asked to be deleted:-

http://www.starwarsforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22315

This thread is meant to be for factual evidence gathered from the main discussion thread we were using for the investigation.
Lee's comment on this thread is entirely speculative and has no factual evidence to back it up, and has no place being in this thread.

cheers Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Am adding German AT-AT Driver (without english text) to the list after being sent pics of this card to examine:-

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

This is the list of affected cards:-

Clipper ESB

72* Rebel Commander
69* Bespin Security Guard White
69+ Hammerhead
56+ Walrusman
11+ Dengar

General Mills ESB

563 Han Hoth (without english text)
526 Stormtrooper (without english text)
500* Bossk (without english text)
357 C3PO Removable Limbs (without english text)
320 AT-AT Driver (with and without english text)
318 Bespin Security Guard Black (with english text)
276 IG88 (without english text)
268 21B (with english text)
194 Han Solo (with and without english text)
171 R2D2 Sensorscope (without english text)
166 Leia Bespin (with english text)
162 Han Bespin (without english text)
138 Ben Kenobi (without english text)
118 Power Droid (with english text)
90 Cloud Car Pilot (with english text)
85 Yoda (without english text)
73* Rebel Commander (with english text)
70 AT-AT Commander (with english text)
69* Bespin Security Guard White (without english text)
66* Chewbacca (with english text)
50 Leia Hoth (with english text)
36 Rebel Soldier (with english text)
26 FX-7 (with english text)
25 Princess Leia (without english text)
11 R5D4 (with english text)

General Mills ROTJ

30 Cloud Car Pilot
6^ Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot

Palitoy ESB

500* Bossk (45b back)
264 Imperial Tie Fighter Pilot (45b back)
66* Chewbacca (45b back)

Palitoy ROTJ

1234 C3PO Removable Limbs (65d back)
1126 Imperial Hoth Trooper (65d back)
885 Luke Skywalker (45c back)
482 Boba Fett (45c back)
467 Lobot (45c back)
417 Death Star Droid (45c back)
301 21B (45c back)
143 Chewbacca (65d back)
132 Luke Bespin (45c back)
105 Luke Hoth (65d back)
86 Lando Skiff Guard (65c back)
81 Logray 65c back)
60 Squid Head (65c back)
47 Han Solo (45c back)
39 AT-AT Driver (65d back)
31 Gamorrean Guard (65c back)
30 Leia Boussh (65c back)
27 AT-AT Commander (45c back)
12 Yoda (45c back)
8 Cloud Car Pilot (45c back)

*Both palitoy & clipper or german & clipper offered on toytoni.com, so a 50/50 split assumed rather than assuming all are german
+Clipper not listed, but offered on toytoni.com, no german figure offered
^Palitoy variation not known to exist, assumed to be german which does exist

Jason

 

[kingshearer]

This is great detective work I hope the truth comes out soon!

I have a White Bespin 45 Palitoy which doesn't feature on this list so I presume it's legit.
I fear for my Chewie 45b and Hoth Stormtrooper though….
Over the weekend I'm going to dig them out and have a look at the bubble seals.

 

[PIGCITY]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291258993058?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Tony??? I only ask as it a 65 and the bubble is mighty long and the seal look suspect???

 

[theforceuk]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291258993058?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Tony??? I only ask as it a 65 and the bubble is mighty long and the seal look suspect???

Look's odd to me but I'm not good on Palitoy MOC's. Think it's fine though the long bubble was used for Chewbacca on this card.

 

[mr_palitoy]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291258993058?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Tony??? I only ask as it a 65 and the bubble is mighty long and the seal look suspect???

Look's odd to me but I'm not good on Palitoy MOC's. Think it's fine though the long bubble was used for Chewbacca on this card.

This one looks ok too. That bubble matches a genuine shop sold bubble on my palitoy guide and there is card wear on the front and back of the card.

Jason

 

[PIGCITY]

Cheers just get jittery looking at any moc on the Bay now

 

[_Lee_]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291258993058?_trksid=p2055359.m1431.l2648&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Tony??? I only ask as it a 65 and the bubble is mighty long and the seal look suspect???

Just seen this cardback in a bunch i have buddy, hope this puts your mind at rest

 

[_Lee_]

Just adding this 'factual' evidence to this thread.

This is a Chewbacca 65 back card, with blacked out type on the back that was obtained from a childhood collection with loose figures and around 30-40 more cardbacks from other stores aswell. This card has a tescos label, and was definately shop bought back in the day.

I have added this as Iain was told his Chewbacca in his valuation thread was a TT when im sure it isnt.

 

[_Lee_]

Personally i dont think that anything linked to Toni with regards to Palitoy can be trusted 100%. I know he had crap loads of Kenner carded aswell, but those were legit. As far as Palitoy and GM,s cards go, it will forever be conjecture. Thats why i dont follow or beleive checklists that have been assembled since this all came out because in my eyes they are scaremongering and putting out incorrect information which is very dangerous.

I also beleive Toni had Palitoy logo unused cardbacks too, but again thats just my own opinion...

Sorry can I ask why you 'believe' Tony had unused Palitoy logo cardbacks? Do you have any evidence to support this?
I can understand how Tony got hold of Jedi cardbacks after the Palitoy factory closed in 1985. As we know there were a lot of Jedi produced compared to SW and Empire and what with that plus the life of SW toys sort of coming to an end at that time there was a lot of unsold factory/shop stock-hence why we c many Jedi pieces in fantastic condition today But surely during the SW and Empire era with the demand outweighing the supply I wouldn't have expected one to get hold of unused cardbacks :?

As said by other members I don't really think u can make statements without having any real evidence to back U up. I have been in the game getting on for 20 years and know a fair few serious Palitoy collectors but have never heard or seen anything to support your foul play beliefs regarding logo Palitoy MOCs :!:

Your statements may well cause ill deserved scaremongering :!:

Forgot to reply to this.

Sorry if it offends, but they are my thoughts and thats it. It may well seem like scaremongering but anything is possible, and quite a lot of information in this thread could be deemed as scaremongering whilst we are talking about the word. Inaccurate lists, strange 'fake' bubble theorys and also completely contradicting 'evidence' in some cases. Unless each of these unused cards has a tracker beacon on it, and one man holds the tracking locater i find it bloody amazing with some things said in this thread. If anyone beleives that the guy who started this farce with a comment said 10 months ago, hasnt played any part in this then they need their heads looking at. Does it not speak volumes that he rarely comes on anymore??? If he does, id like to see if he would admit to an after factory bubble sealing???

Again, sorry but its my own opinion and ill ask for the post to be deleted if it makes you feel any better.

 

[jules_p]

I know there be a lot of posts of the potential Toy Toni scam all over the place including on RS, it quite hard to find what you want . The evidence for most part is circumstantial I gather?

So I appreciate your inputs on the 2 stormies below - any concerns?

Cheers, Jules

 

[mr_palitoy]

I know there be a lot of posts of the potential Toy Toni scam all over the place including on RS, it quite hard to find what you want . The evidence for most part is circumstantial I gather?

So I appreciate your inputs on the 2 stormies below - any concerns?

Cheers, Jules

View attachment 2

View attachment 1

You haven't pictured the backs of the cards.

If the storm trooper is German then it's a Toni, if it's palitoy then it's ok.
If the snow trooper is a palitoy 65d then it's a Toni, if it's a palitoy 45c then it's ok.

Cheers Jason

 

[jules_p]

You haven't pictured the backs of the cards.

If the storm trooper is German then it's a Toni, if it's palitoy then it's ok.
If the snow trooper is a palitoy 65d then it's a Toni, if it's a palitoy 45c then it's ok.

Cheers Jason

Thanks for chipping in Jason.

the storm is German and snow is a 65d. So it is Toni, does it mean it is a fake or just suspect as I gather he sold some genuine as well? I haven't been following the forums when this first broke out and there too many posts all over too to read the relevant bits. Cheers, Jules

 

[mr_palitoy]

You haven't pictured the backs of the cards.

If the storm trooper is German then it's a Toni, if it's palitoy then it's ok.
If the snow trooper is a palitoy 65d then it's a Toni, if it's a palitoy 45c then it's ok.

Cheers Jason

Thanks for chipping in Jason.

the storm is German and snow is a 65d. So it is Toni, does it mean it is a fake or just suspect as I gather he sold some genuine as well? I haven't been following the forums when this first broke out and there too many posts all over too to read the relevant bits. Cheers, Jules

Those cards both look like Toni's to me. The genuine stuff he sold was Kenner and trilogo mostly.

Cheers Jason

 

[jules_p]

You haven't pictured the backs of the cards.

If the storm trooper is German then it's a Toni, if it's palitoy then it's ok.
If the snow trooper is a palitoy 65d then it's a Toni, if it's a palitoy 45c then it's ok.

Cheers Jason

Thanks for chipping in Jason.

the storm is German and snow is a 65d. So it is Toni, does it mean it is a fake or just suspect as I gather he sold some genuine as well? I haven't been following the forums when this first broke out and there too many posts all over too to read the relevant bits. Cheers, Jules

Those cards both look like Toni's to me. The genuine stuff he sold was Kenner and trilogo mostly.

Cheers Jason

I tried to read some of this thread and there a lot to digest. Dimbles was mentioned within. The Storm card photo seem to indicate dimbles (i need to dig him out to check). Does dimbles indicate anything?

 

[mr_palitoy]

You haven't pictured the backs of the cards.

If the storm trooper is German then it's a Toni, if it's palitoy then it's ok.
If the snow trooper is a palitoy 65d then it's a Toni, if it's a palitoy 45c then it's ok.

Cheers Jason

Thanks for chipping in Jason.

the storm is German and snow is a 65d. So it is Toni, does it mean it is a fake or just suspect as I gather he sold some genuine as well? I haven't been following the forums when this first broke out and there too many posts all over too to read the relevant bits. Cheers, Jules

Those cards both look like Toni's to me. The genuine stuff he sold was Kenner and trilogo mostly.

Cheers Jason

I tried to read some of this thread and there a lot to digest. Dimbles was mentioned within. The Storm card photo seem to indicate dimbles (i need to dig him out to check). Does dimbles indicate anything?

Yes, those dimples may mean it's okay. The video footage from the palitoy factory shows the pins to keep the bubble in place during the sealing process. For storm trooper Toni used the same bubble as the factory did. So I think you may be good on this card with those dimples being visible on the 2nd photo.

Cheers Jason

 

[spoons]

The Stormtrooper is identical to one I had and have since sold as I was convinced it was a Toni.

Took a fair hit on the sale, but the buyer has since flipped it as genuine - a murky world out there post Tonigate

Its interesting that both mine and this Stormtrooper have the dimpled bubbles. It would suggest he had preferred bubbles for certain figures/cards, or did them in batches or perhaps most controversially that they could be shop stock

 

[jules_p]

The Stormtrooper is identical to one I had and have since sold as I was convinced it was a Toni.

Took a fair hit on the sale, but the buyer has since flipped it as genuine - a murky world out there post Tonigate

Its interesting that both mine and this Stormtrooper have the dimpled bubbles. It would suggest he had preferred bubbles for certain figures/cards, or did them in batches or perhaps most controversially that they could be shop stock

I definitely believe that Toni has original stock as I used to visit the display stall in Brighton over several years - I believe this is Toni's? Among the various MOCs usually included Trilogos with dents, RoTJ with yellow bubbles, mecanno Jawas - some bubbles with slight yellowing - they definitely didn't look recently sealed or pampered with, as I examined many over the years . I actually brought the snow stormie from that stall for £35 a few years ago. I am thinking it hardly be worth Toni's time to fake and sell it at that price esp if a minty stormie can easily fletch £20-25 on fleabay. These stormies were always 100% mint and unplayed with.

I can see there are some serious concerns out there - the Trilogo fetts on the early cards seem very dodgy - perhaps there more to gain with high value items or something like that. It would help Toni himself a lot if he showed a few pics of his trade cases or similar to vertify his MOCs are genuine. I take it he silent on the issue now isn't he? That really doesn't help, perhaps for introverted people or similar, they retract into their shell and shut shop when the circus spot light is on them. But sometimes, it can get too much, especially like on RS, where some folk will simply not give up. If that not the case, then there may be something to hide or it appears that way?

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

The Stormtrooper is identical to one I had and have since sold as I was convinced it was a Toni.

I take it he silent on the issue now isn't he?

He has never been anything other than silent mate. Speaks volumes.

 

[jules_p]

Yes, those dimples may mean it's okay. The video footage from the palitoy factory shows the pins to keep the bubble in place during the sealing process. For storm trooper Toni used the same bubble as the factory did. So I think you may be good on this card with those dimples being visible on the 2nd photo.

Cheers Jason

I got the stormtrooper card out and had another look.

There a 3rd dimble between the bubble stems above L of Ltd.

I had another good look at the seal. It is definitely done under a uniform pressure all the seal area round implying a proper pressing kit such as they had in the factory. It is no amateur sealing job for sure.

Perhaps I am risking my neck here but I think this card is genuine :shock:

Just my humble opinion

Cheers Jules

 

[mr_palitoy]

Yes, those dimples may mean it's okay. The video footage from the palitoy factory shows the pins to keep the bubble in place during the sealing process. For storm trooper Toni used the same bubble as the factory did. So I think you may be good on this card with those dimples being visible on the 2nd photo.

Cheers Jason

I got the stormtrooper card out and had another look.

There a 3rd dimble between the bubble stems above L of Ltd.

I had another good look at the seal. It is definitely done under a uniform pressure all the seal area round implying a proper pressing kit such as they had in the factory. It is no amateur sealing job for sure.

Perhaps I am risking my neck here but I think this card is genuine :shock:

Just my humble opinion

Cheers Jules

Have looked at that factory footage again. Those pins are on the outside of the card to keep the card from moving, not on the bubble itself.
I think the dimples on the bubbles are there as part of the manufacturing process of the bubble or as the result of a tool used to hold the bubble
in place while being non factory sealed.

So I don't think they add anything either way.

Jason

 

[theforceuk]

What people think is erelevant. Hard facts are what counts and there hard to get hold of with this TT situation. :?:

 

[jules_p]

Have looked at that factory footage again. Those pins are on the outside of the card to keep the card from moving, not on the bubble itself.
I think the dimples on the bubbles are there as part of the manufacturing process of the bubble or as the result of a tool used to hold the bubble
in place while being non factory sealed.

So I don't think they add anything either way.

Jason

Hi Jason,

Would it be possible to link me to the video in case it is of a one or quality that I not seen.

Also note the stormie MOC got an uniform pressure indention around the seal area on the card all round the bubble - it does look like a factory press device or similar.

Cheers,

Jules

 

[mr_palitoy]

Have looked at that factory footage again. Those pins are on the outside of the card to keep the card from moving, not on the bubble itself.
I think the dimples on the bubbles are there as part of the manufacturing process of the bubble or as the result of a tool used to hold the bubble
in place while being non factory sealed.

So I don't think they add anything either way.

Jason

Hi Jason,

Would it be possible to link me to the video in case it is of a one or quality that I not seen.

Also note the stormie MOC got an uniform pressure indention around the seal area on the card all round the bubble - it does look like a factory press device or similar.

Cheers,

Jules

It's just the video link you have already seen:-

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

Can you post a pic of the back of the card? Increased pressing/ident round the bubble on the back of the card is a sign of a factory seal too.

cheers Jason

 

[jules_p]

Have looked at that factory footage again. Those pins are on the outside of the card to keep the card from moving, not on the bubble itself.
I think the dimples on the bubbles are there as part of the manufacturing process of the bubble or as the result of a tool used to hold the bubble
in place while being non factory sealed.

So I don't think they add anything either way.

Jason

Hi Jason,

Would it be possible to link me to the video in case it is of a one or quality that I not seen.

Also note the stormie MOC got an uniform pressure indention around the seal area on the card all round the bubble - it does look like a factory press device or similar.

Cheers,

Jules

It's just the video link you have already seen:-

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

Can you post a pic of the back of the card? Increased pressing/ident round the bubble on the back of the card is a sign of a factory seal too.

cheers Jason

Hello Jason,

I enclose some more pics of the front of the card as looking at the back is very faint - you need to move the card in the light reflection to see it - there a very slight bend where the seal is.

Points to include (From the photos):

there actually 5 dimbles - 2 extra on left side of card (don't know if you can see it?) sorry I missed the other two :?
- it is a uniform press all round the bubble.

- looking at the stems - you should be able to see a crease on each stem - to me it looks like it happened during the bubble pressing action.

I hope this helps?

Jules

 

[mr_palitoy]

A lot of my AFA 90 Tonis had those creases on the bubble corners so I don't think that helps the case to say this is genuine.

Jason

 

[wasp]

Hello,

Could be a very similar figure?. The link is an AFA graduate Stormtrooper, and looks identical to the one shown here jules_p:

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1114934/

Cheers.