Cromalins/proofs

[PIGCITY]

I know I have asked this before but ... What sort of price can these go for?

The collecting of proofs baffles me how can any authenticity be assured for them. As I may have mentioned before I deal with a lot of printers who will reproduce anything for a few quid and have plenty of musty old stock so the smell etc of aged paper is not a surefire way of maing sure someting is authentic.Plus colour separations etc are easy to do from any artwork, unless you have commercial print training & an eye glass there would be no way of telling the difference between a proof run out in the 80s and one done yesterday

There just seems to be a lot of proofs about for print jobs where there should only be a few proofs per print job/run. I have worked on some very big print run jobs and we only ever have a couple tops. Surely if people are spending enough time to fake mocs it would be even less effort ot knock out a few cromalins.....

Don't want to open a can of worms here just curious.

 

[Joe]

It's all about provenance really PIG.

There were only a handful of sources of these things (and only ever will be)

Tom N - Who worked for Kenner and took about 75% of the 2D stuff on the market nowadays home with him and then slowly broke it up and sold it on.

Steve Denny - He and a couple of other collectors were the Kenner dumpster "bin raiders of the Ark" where he salvaged, kept hold of and later sold to collectors a bunch of stuff that Kenner chucked out.

Pretty much every proof, cromalin or mock up/sample 2D piece can be traced back to those two guys above or ex Kenner employees. If you are buying your proofs in the corner shop from Del boy then provenance is probably an issue :lol:

EDIT-

This is Tom (holding the Jawa photoart - http://theswca.com/lexicon/photoart.html ):

And this is a picture of the C2 (I think) room sale where Steve Denny brought all his proofs/cromalins that he had stashed away in order to sell them off to the collectors that attended the room sales, they changed hands for little to no money (by todays standards) but as the years have passed the prices have risen.

Another thing to remember is many of these things exist in really low numbers (especially cromalins which are for the most part the real "proof" so there is only need for one to exist unless something has to be changed on it) so if suddenly a seller had 5 of the same cromalin for a certain character it would raise alarm bells instantly.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Any of these can be reproduced easily. It is all about where you are buying them.

 

[PIGCITY]

Any of these can be reproduced easily. It is all about where you are buying them.

Thanks for the reply & info Joe very informative, the above is what I was referring to really. That if you had a resource to replicate these from then it would be pretty difficult to spot a fake to the untrained eye. Knowing that they can be traced back to 1 or 2 people is an assurance of sorts.

 

[Joe]

I've seen fakes and I have seen originals, I don't want to tempt fate and I don't doubt your expertise in the field of printing PIG but I don't think anyone could recreate a proof or a cromalin perfectly.

It's highly likely of course that you could create something similar and make it look aged etc then fool someone with no experience in the proof/cromalin area of our hobby but once you have seen a couple and actually held them in your hand you just know. I know that sounds stupid but it is what it is.

The best way to go about getting into the proof game is to buy one or two from guaranteed reputable sources then you know what to look for.

Also - please don't see the "I don't think you could fool a proof collector" line as a challenge Todd or PIG The less fakes in circulation the better!

 

[Dublinjeff]

Pardon my ignorance, but are Proofs the original card designs that were used on the ones that were then released to shops :?: Will do a bit more research on these myself as i dont really know much about them at all...

 

[Joe]

Pardon my ignorance, but are Proofs the original card designs that were used on the ones that were then released to shops :?: Will do a bit more research on these myself as i dont really know much about them at all...

Here you go Jeff,

A cromalin is the true "proof" meaning it was the part of process where edits and changes were made before being approved - http://theswca.com/lexicon/cromalin.html

A proof card is really really close to the final stage of production, so much so that apart from a few characteristics - proofs are almost production backing cards. - http://theswca.com/lexicon/proofcard.html

And this is a nice write up on how the photoart (original artwork) is manipulated onto a cardback - http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=48253

 

[Dublinjeff]

Pardon my ignorance, but are Proofs the original card designs that were used on the ones that were then released to shops :?: Will do a bit more research on these myself as i dont really know much about them at all...

Here you go Jeff,

A cromalin is the true "proof" meaning it was the part of process where edits and changes were made before being approved - http://theswca.com/lexicon/cromalin.html

A proof card is really really close to the final stage of production, so much so that apart from a few characteristics - proofs are almost production backing cards. - http://theswca.com/lexicon/proofcard.html

And this is a nice write up on how the photoart (original artwork) is manipulated onto a cardback - http://theswca.com/index.php?action=disp_item&item_id=48253

Thats great, Thanks for that mate....

 

[Dublinjeff]

Thanks again Joe,

Having read that there, surely these are really rare and expensive so :?:
Were many produced for each figure :?: , very interesting subject.

Interest was peaked by Sorens post in the LA thread of 4 Proof cards. Thought that they looked cool, but i imagine that they would be fairly pricey..... :? or are they like MOC, the 12 backs are most expensive working down to ROTJ cards..

 

[PIGCITY]

Also - please don't see the "I don't think you could fool a proof collector" line as a challenge Todd or PIG The less fakes in circulation the better!

Very good Don't worry I would never even entertain the thought, my initial question was merely a headscratching inquiry as to how one would go about authenticating such an item.

"Now if I could only accurately black out those two ****ing ewoks on the back of these cards I'd be minted on these Weequay & Madine dodgy proofs...."

 

[Joe]

Thanks again Joe,

Having read that there, surely these are really rare and expensive so :?:
Were many produced for each figure :?: , very interesting subject.

Interest was peaked by Sorens post in the LA thread of 4 Proof cards. Thought that they looked cool, but i imagine that they would be fairly pricey..... :? or are they like MOC, the 12 backs are most expensive working down to ROTJ cards..

Np Jeff!

Well, prices for these kinds of things can be weird. There is no real right or wrong way to price them - depending on what they are however there are average prices on certain things.

Proofs/Cromalns can range from a few hundred bucks to a few thousand - all depends on collector interest, numbers available, popularity of the character etc

The cheapest proof cards out there are actually the more interesting ones to look at IMO- Revenge proof cards with the Revenge text on the ROTJ logo are quite plentiful (a load were pumped out before the change) and you can bag those for $200-300 each.

Cromalins are usually one offs or in some cases 1 of 2-3 (one edited and one clean - the clean one gets the go ahead and is produced after the edited one) and therefore pricier, I would say anywhere from $500-600 for a "cheap" one and upwards for something cooler.

Prices are usually in line with MOC you are quite right- ROTJ (return and revenge) being cheapest then ESB followed by SW and POTF, anything unproduced (like POTF proofs for figures never released on POTF cards) are up there in price too.

 

[tiefighterboy]

Also - please don't see the "I don't think you could fool a proof collector" line as a challenge Todd or PIG The less fakes in circulation the better!

It can be done and If done correctly fool people. I am no longer in the business of making these things for profit or ****ing people....................... I wonder What Han Duo would do (Pictures of crayons and glue sticks come to mind) :lol:

BTW...I do own some real proofs and I agree with Joe, once in hand you know the real deal.

 

[_Lee_]

Joe and TFB have given the info needed about these.

When i was into protos around 2002-2004(Lando Skiff)i obtained the following at the following prices:

Return Proof-£150 (now worth around £400) purchased from S York
Return of the Jedi Emp Offer cromalin-£250 (no worth around £1000,if not more) Purchased from Cloud City(via Tom N)
POTF Uncut Proof-£300 (Jediman now owns that i think,but i sold it on Ebay in 04 for around £400) purchased from Dan Flarida from a sheet that was being cut up.
ROTJ Palitoy unused cardback-£70 (just and unused cardback really,but its what you beleive they are-and they are neat(sold for £150 in 2004)bought from Andy Loney

The rarest of that lot by far,was the Emp Offer cromalin as it was thought to be the only one exisiting(no more than 2 definately if there is another)and i was amazed to buy it for what i did.CC had a huge inventory from Tom N in the early 2000's and a lot of the stuff went really,really cheap compared to todays prices.

I also owned ESB Power droid,ESB R5D4 4lom offer(only 1 in existence-fact)C3P0 ESB and Lando bespin.

Proofs can be authenticated relatively easily if you have had them pass through your hands both in AFA cases or loose in toploaders.A lot of it involves authentic linage,but after a while you will know what is real and what isnt.However i wil agree with what TFB said,there will be people whom get fooled by repros unless they decide to go the better route of tracing history etc.I beleive a guy was making repro proof sheets,cromalins for both the figures and the other toys a while back.The better the repros get,the better chance that people will be fooled into them.

Proofs/Cromalins etc to me are more of a high end range and centers on the historical fact of the toys production.It doesnt appeal to everyone,and i have long sinc gotten out of the game where they are concerned.IMO they are only visually appealing for a while,as they have little visual spark.People will buy them,knowing they have a piece of the production process and that is good,but they dont float everyones boat.They got more and more popular when people started doing focus collections,furthering the demand for the rarer pieces.

Hope this helps.

Lee

P.S. I also turned down the original photoart for Lando for $3000 back in the day :shock: what a **** i was!

 

[Joe]

P.S. I also turned down the original photoart for Lando for $3000 back in the day :shock: what a **** i was!

:shock: Sorry Lee I gotta agree! You were a hairy beaver!

 

[PIGCITY]

Thanks for all the replies & info on this. I now feel a lot more informed so far as proofs & cromalins go

 

[Dark Sith Lord]

Freakin Love those pics Joe

 

[søren]

Well Joe has said most here . And i can only ad to the fact that when you have one ind your hand you can feel the the way it's got to feel . And i to only get stuff from proven sources .

On top of that i can only ad that this hole proof thing is a very very addictive thing . I got my first proof about a year ago and now i'm almost only looking for proofs and have over 20.... So watch out mate .

Pm me if there are any one you are looking for . As i said i'm almost eksclusive looking for proofs now and might know who has some up for sale .

Ps. Joe that photo from the room sale are super . And who ever took it made history. As that was probably the last time ever al the cromalins where together :-(

 

[Joe]

Freakin Love those pics Joe

If you liked that picture check out this one!

Not 100% sure which Celebration this was taken at but I believe this was Cloud City's stand, you can probably spot a lot of goodies here from uncut sheets to photo art

The majority of these pieces all originated from Tom N, I don't think he ever took a picture of all of the stuff he had (probably wouldn't fit in one group shot) but literally everything on the market can be traced back to him, I know most of mine do. (In fact I *think* you can see one of the proofs I own in the pic above - that is why I save it )

 

[shawn_k]

I'd forgotten about that pic Joe! :shock: It certainly makes me wish I would have gone to some of the earlier celebrations when you see that pic and the room sale pics.

Proof cards/cromalins are a fun item to collect and difficult if your a focus collector trying to find a specific character. I do think sometimes it isn't until you hold one of these in your hands that you realize the history involved and how awesome they are. I casually wanted a proof for a long time, but it wasn't until Joe had his proof and cromalin visit me that I got really hooked on 2D preproduction and started researching all I could about them.

I didn't see it mentioned, but here's a great site with lots of info on proofs. I'm currently hosting it for Max and am looking at expanding it a bit in the near future.

 

[Joe]

Another vote for Max's/Shawn's site here - great resource for the budding proof collector! Glad you saved the site Shawn before it vanished, shame Max is otherwise preoccupied but hey ho the resource is still alive

I got some other pictures from the C2/Steve Denny proof sale actually if anyone is interested?