Competition Etiquette

[palitoyjunky]

I do think it is important to share, but not necessarily everything especially if it feels it might be detrimental to your collecting. If we don't share though what's the point of this forum. Over the years I've hugely enjoyed helping mates and fellow forum members acquiring pieces and gotten loads of pleasure knowing that I've been part of their collecting journey.

Well said Andy 8)

 

[UKS]

Surely as a community you share the stuff that you are not trying to buy?

"I've seen a great deal on ebay - Thought you may like it!"

Or "Have you all seen Vectis?"

That's community. Not colluding. Not bidding gainst each other is actually doing the community a disservice. That fellow collector could be selling that piece to buy a different one - and you are stealing from them the fair value of that product.

You would not like that to happen to you - So don't do it to someone else.

There is only a short step between that type of collusion (princes suppressed) to the other (bidding up each others lots to con the mark who is buying)

 

[edd_jedi]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

 

[Ruby2511]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

Totally agree Edd, I personally like my loose collection, good honest and played with, let's call it "fatigued" and "well worn". and collected on a budget and the collection is for me, not for an investment, I'm not a rich man will probably never be, I'm comfortable and can afford the odd piece when I can and gifts from others for birthdays and Christmas.

I see many listings on a well known site and think WTF!!! why is that so expensive? Like you stated in your post "they're damned toys". But prices are being driven up so items that are wanted to complete a collection or run are often well out of reach. I personally need around 20 loose figures to finish off my collection, I'm in no rush and will enjoy getting them as and when I can and hopefully when prices either drop or stabilise.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

That's an intersting take on it and a valid point, but for me personally one of the best ways of serving the collecting community is keeping prices down so it is accessible to everyone. This shouldn't be a rich man's play thing like exotic cars, masters paintings or vintage watches, they're damned toys. Nobody wants to be paying thousands of pounds for bits of plastic, and no real collectors I know particularly care about the monetary value of their collections.

I really don't see how two impatient people driving up the price of a mass produced item serves the community. I could perhaps understand it for a one-off prototype, but not for something there are multiple examples of.

So if anyone on the forum was selling their collection in the future then they would not want two impatient people bidding on the same thing as its bad for the community, that makes sense.

Just for clarity if buyers collude to not bid against each other at an auction to keep the price down is this acceptable to the collecting community?

Your argument is very biased towards buying, what happens when you're selling your rare items, surely it is acceptable for the seller to want or dream of the best price possible, many collectors may be selling for a specific financial reason, what about them or do you cease to exist within the community when you sell?

 

[Michael Sith]

I think what we are seeing here is a general consensus from vintage collectors, especially on this forum, where etiquette ( not just from a competitive perspective but from an overall perspective) this is a comradery built up from years of collecting and having a VESTED collecting interest in the hobby, I say hobby as that is what Edd is alluding to. That is the opposite end of the collecting spectrum to that of somebody looking at this as a form of investment. To compare the 2 is complete folly and an " investor" colllecting even though they enjoy the hobby.
I would not pay £1 or £2k for an item that I can put together as a reseal for £50 and enjoy the thrill of sourcing the components putting the item together and displaying for ME, not for an investment.

There is absoloutely nothing wrong with investors purchasing high end items even though that will ultimately drive the prices up for those said items.
An investor will also reach a point where they either cash in on there investment or leave as a legacy for family, fully understand that.

But, I ask this question, if the bottom fell out of the vintage market would you still collect? I know I would if a moc was 50 p I would buy it to own and display as it is part of what I love and I also love the comradery of the collecting community.

It becomes pointless to try to argue two opposite ends of the spectrum.

Again I have nothing against someone having an interest in the hobby and enough cash to invest, but also wrankles with me that those very same investors want to be part of the hobby for the love of it, as let's be honest it's simply not the case.

I am a great believer in being helpful, polite and agreeable, as that's how I live my life, I have perspective I love the hobby and would never over reach myself. That attitude may not make me a millionaire but I have my riches in other ways.

This forum in the main is for collectors who have an affinity with the hobby, enjoy the comradery and will help each other in a heartbeat, we are nor not exclusive, petulant or derisory and will always help with support information and assistance, that's what this particular forum is all about.

Again I have NO ISSUE with an investor collector, and to be fair that type of collector is usually transient which is the exact opposite of collectors for the hobby itself, who will research at great cost to time and effort for no gain financially but to PUT BACK into a hobby that gives them so much joy...that's the difference.

If an item came up that was rare and peanuts and I knew for example a member on here needed it for their collection and a member on here would collect it for an investment, then I know where my pm would go

 

[Ruby2511]

Lovely post Mike

 

[spoons]

Lovely post Mike

Ditto, sums up the forum completely. The fun is all about collecting. The bottom falls out of the market tomorrow it means more pieces to find

 

[coomber75]

interesting thread, have to say i have benefitted many time from people being kind enough to think of me or point me in the right direction, and when they have ive paid what i felt it was worth and could afford... i remember waiting months to get a yak as i wasnt willing to pay above 100.. ahh those wete the days!! id like to think ive done the same from time to time lwtting people know kf bits if i know they are after them. i do like to buy pieces that i want to hold on too and display, but then im pretty mainstream in my collecting so its not always crazy hard to achieve... well bar an sw back greedo for some reason hes a swine to find :lol:
my ethos collect what you love with what you are happy to lose if the bottom falls out!! end of the day i still will have the things i wanted to see around me

 

[Snaketibe]

Lovely post Mike

Ditto, sums up the forum completely. The fun is all about collecting. The bottom falls out of the market tomorrow it means more pieces to find

Ditto from me too. An excellent post, Mike.

Jeremy

 

[maxf]

I think the number of 'investors' in Star Wars is incredibly low... it's bogeyman term used when people spend a lot of money. If you're rich, you arent investing in star wars toys. If you're not rich, you probably arent either. People might use it as an excuse to make a bigger than usual purchase, but I very much doubt it's any more than that. There is an argument that speculators are buying up Star Wars hoping for a quick return, but honestly - I think thats an absolute minority.

Just about every other investment vehicle makes more sense than vintage star wars, where bubbles will likely deteriorate, plastic degrade, tastes change etc well before it's time to cash in.

We are in an asset bubble - it's affected everything from cars to houses, watches to art and of course toys. The rich are richer than ever (and I mean that in terms of not having to walk miles for your water, rather than the magical 1%) and people spend money. Dont mistake someone spending a 'large' sum of money for an investor... an investor wants the highest return and therefore certainly arent seeking to buy at a record price.

 

[edd_jedi]

Just about every other investment vehicle makes more sense than vintage star wars

I'm not sure I agree. Take property for example - a good return yield is considered to be 5% per year. A similar return is considered good for pensions, and low-risk stocks and shares. If you know what you're doing and are ruthless, it's not that difficult to make a 100%+ profit on Star Wars toys, sometimes in a matter of days, but certainly over the course of a few years. So although I take your point that there may not be many 'really rich' collectors, there definitely are people making thousands of pounds of profit a month out of Star Wars toys, which makes it a viable business and would grab the attention of many serious investors.

 

[edd_jedi]

Just for clarity if buyers collude to not bid against each other at an auction to keep the price down is this acceptable to the collecting community?

I think as Mike says, it depends on the circumstances. Would I want a long-time collector to get a good price for their collection when selling? Yes of course. Would I want somebody who has just jumped on the bandwagon to make large amounts of profit at the expense of genuine collectors? Probably not.

 

[theforceuk]

At the moment and since 2008, investing in vintage Star Wars is way better than leaving your money in the bank. Interest rates have been so low for so long. How many members on here could make a good living if they were given £50,000 to spend and sell on vintage Star Wars?

 

[edd_jedi]

At the moment and since 2008, investing in vintage Star Wars is way better than leaving your money in the bank. Interest rates have been so low for so long. How many members on here could make a good living if they were given £50,000 to spend and sell on vintage Star Wars?

Exactly. It's something I have considered doing myself many times, but my problem is I love the toys too much to ruthlessly buy and sell for profit, my heart usually rules over my head. There are many things in my collection I could make a ridiculous profit on if I sold, but I like the items too much to sell them.

 

[theforceuk]

At the moment and since 2008, investing in vintage Star Wars is way better than leaving your money in the bank. Interest rates have been so low for so long. How many members on here could make a good living if they were given £50,000 to spend and sell on vintage Star Wars?

Exactly. It's something I have considered doing myself many times, but my problem is I love the toys too much to ruthlessly buy and sell for profit, my heart usually rules over my head. There are many things in my collection I could make a ridiculous profit on if I sold, but I like the items too much to sell them.

Exactly how I feel, to me it is a hobby, if I'd had a £ for every time a friend or family member had said why don't you buy and sell I would be much better off. But I know for a fact as soon as I started buying and selling vintage Star Wars it would turn the items into objects of profit. I sold some figures for a friend last year that he won in an auction, I made him a small profit and said I was keeping all the army builders as payment. Don't get me wrong I have no problem with collectors who buy and sell, it's a huge part of the hobby and I do it with other toy lines all the time, just not Star Wars. I literally just see myself the same as I was in the 80s and 90s a kid trying to collect all the Star Wars toys.

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I think the number of 'investors' in Star Wars is incredibly low... it's bogeyman term used when people spend a lot of money. If you're rich, you arent investing in star wars toys. If you're not rich, you probably arent either. People might use it as an excuse to make a bigger than usual purchase, but I very much doubt it's any more than that. There is an argument that speculators are buying up Star Wars hoping for a quick return, but honestly - I think thats an absolute minority.

Just about every other investment vehicle makes more sense than vintage star wars, where bubbles will likely deteriorate, plastic degrade, tastes change etc well before it's time to cash in.

We are in an asset bubble - it's affected everything from cars to houses, watches to art and of course toys. The rich are richer than ever (and I mean that in terms of not having to walk miles for your water, rather than the magical 1%) and people spend money. Dont mistake someone spending a 'large' sum of money for an investor... an investor wants the highest return and therefore certainly arent seeking to buy at a record price.

I agree with Max I think Star Wars makes for a bad investment as the item you would be investing in is prone to failure in so many different ways, making it a high risk investment.

I think the term investor is a derogatory term used by certain forum members to describe anyone who upsets the equilibrium.

I would be interested in knowing how some members of this forum differentiate between a collector and an investor?

Max makes an interesting point above that investors are looking for the highest return and therefore are not looking to buy at a record price so I guess collectors must be buying the high price pieces.

Last time I checked both buyers and sellers formed part of this forum and the collecting community in general so the actions of one group (buyers) will affect the other group (sellers), so if one group gains the other loses, personally I think it is unfair that the sellers should be forced to sell for a low price to keep the buyers happy but it seems like I am in the minority on this.

 

[edd_jedi]

Well Mike's question sums it up perfectly - would you still collect these if they were worthless, or even worse they were expensive to buy but then the bottom fell out of the market? If not, you're an investor and not a collector.

 

[theforceuk]

Thats another one I get asked all the time, what would you do if the value of your collection dropped to hardly anything. The answer is, I would be very happy as I would be able to get stuff I can only dream of at the moment. Their are thousands of people that make money from buying and selling old items including vintage Star Wars, they are called antique dealers, Brians toys is a well known one.

 

[Michael Sith]

I have a 3 line Luke which I picked up in 1983 for my son ( with whom I have collected for years and still do) the LFB is paint rubbed and has the Wobbliest head you will ever see!
I was gifted a 12 back LFB cardback by a member on here a lot of years ago, it has litho tears around the bubble area and most of the bubble area missing and I have sourced a bubble to go with it.
That together is part of my reseal repair 12 back run and is worth more to me than a mint version of the card sealed, I would never let it go, it's value to me is I display it as a 12 back for me and for the memories and story it evokes to me personally for my collection. Each of the pieces I have have a story to them, which is linked to members on here, lucky finds in the wild, ebay purchases, trades and swaps.
For me it's not, is a piece rare, but do I want the piece for " my plan" each collectors plan evolves over years of collecting, research sparking an interest in certain items. There are collectors on here that collect fervently then sell up( usually don't profit from it or if they do not much) then return and start again.there are collectors on here and in the hobby that have collected for 25 years plus and have rare items of value that they picked up for peanuts but will never let go ( as Edd said he has some value items that he could turn a profit on but guess what he would regret it if he did)

I think what I'm trying to put accross is that it's the " bigger picture" in the hobby especially on here. This forum is in no way elitist, non welcoming, or a place where new members are flamed or derided quite the opposite.
We have a membership with a core value ...we are passionate in varying degrees about the hobby, our own collection and the comradery found in like minded collectors. I personally have received and given back from and to the hobby. There are many many members on here who are the same as me. I have been contacted in the past by members of other groups or collectors with a heads up on something, I have done the same.
as for putting back into the hobby, the original poster actually set this forum up and for years has invested his time and money to provide it for like minded collectors, to which we are ever gratefull.

Now when my long suffering wife asks me why I collect, I admit my response is "it's an investment" :lol: I know she doesn't believe it though :lol:

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

I would still collect MOC's if they were cheap or worthless, that said some of them are cheap considering the rarity. At this point in my collecting journey I would be happy for the market to drop and prices to reduce as that would make the rest of the stuff I need cheaper. Once I have got everything I need then I would prefer prices to go up which makes me a bit of a Hybrid or Investor Collector which is the preferred more provocative Forum Title!

 

[Wreck-It Ralph]

The forum is unique in that I know nowhere else you can voice your opinions and have an intellectual and sometimes challenging debate with likeminded people.

 

[maxf]

Just about every other investment vehicle makes more sense than vintage star wars

I'm not sure I agree. Take property for example - a good return yield is considered to be 5% per year. A similar return is considered good for pensions, and low-risk stocks and shares. If you know what you're doing and are ruthless, it's not that difficult to make a 100%+ profit on Star Wars toys, sometimes in a matter of days, but certainly over the course of a few years. So although I take your point that there may not be many 'really rich' collectors, there definitely are people making thousands of pounds of profit a month out of Star Wars toys, which makes it a viable business and would grab the attention of many serious investors.

To enter such a niche investment field, you'd need a high return as the downsides are potentially huge (bubbles don't fall off houses ).

I'm sure there are people making good money off trading Star Wars - and I am perhaps considering the definition of investor too strictly. I agree the Star Wars world is full of delboy traders, but I struggle to consider these as true investors.

 

[maxf]

At the moment and since 2008, investing in vintage Star Wars is way better than leaving your money in the bank. Interest rates have been so low for so long. How many members on here could make a good living if they were given £50,000 to spend and sell on vintage Star Wars?

I hear the 'better than money in the bank' argument all the time - but things don't have to be that binary! I take your point though.

I think I'd quickly fall out of love with it all doing it for a living tbh.

 

[theforceuk]

At the moment and since 2008, investing in vintage Star Wars is way better than leaving your money in the bank. Interest rates have been so low for so long. How many members on here could make a good living if they were given £50,000 to spend and sell on vintage Star Wars?

I hear the 'better than money in the bank' argument all the time - but things don't have to be that binary! I take your point though.

I think I'd quickly fall out of love with it all doing it for a living tbh.

Yes that would be my concern, think under the mattress is the best place for money at the moment. :lol: