C10 does not exist

[itfciain]

I have noticed more and more collectors looking for these illusive C10 figures and I have to say that as someone who has probably bought and sold around 40-50 thousand figures that such items do not exist

Even the much maligned AFA rarely grade a figure above 90 and then some directly pulled from cards have been known to only get a U75

I have just wasted time this week sending over numerous pictures and descriptions to someone only for them to turn round at the end of it and say no thanks. It is obviously their prerogative to do this and I am not is the business of forcing anyone to purchase from me (I get by with a the odd sale :wink: ) - however this search for perfection in toys that were made over 30 years ago is a bit ridiculous.

If you guys saw how many boxes and boxes of figures I have then you would know that I seek out only the best to sell on here - I know that people have purchased from me before, sent them off to be graded and got 90's - so I do know what I am doing !

It is also worth remembering that these were never originally designed to be 'trophies' for future generations - they were stored and shipped in bulk and the tipped into large bins before being put on the card - as this video (0:22) shows

[youtube]eFEX1jvSFDo[/youtube]

 

[Richard_H]

If you see a c9.9 at-at head let me know

 

[jedisearcher]

It does make me laugh when I see people arguing why figures on MOCs' or taken straight off cards don't automatically get a c10-type grade. We've all seen the video, but I guess a lot of people haven't and they obviously expect the production process to be some hermetically sealed, closed system were inperfections can't happen, when the reality is very different.

You've only got to look at the botched paint jobs on figures like Boba Fett to see why the grades would never be perfect. About all you can guarantee is that the figure would have stiff limbs.

Look at the recent Luke Palitoy 12 back on ebay - it looks like it's been sneezed on at the factory.

 

[skywalker]

Yeah I know what you mean lain, when I first started collecting my loose set (now sold) I was looking for everything C10 and eventually realized it does not exist..!!

But you can get MINT figures with no playwear and there is a difference, as you say a figure pulled from a card will not be C10, but in my eyes would be MINT with no playwear even if that means a minor paint rub or overspray..

The sooner I realized this collecting got easier and I still had a collection of MINT figures but not flawless as C10 would suggest.

And like you said especially now as 30 years have passed it will get harder and harder...

 

[fuzzybuzzytoys]

Here ****ing here Iain.

This annoys me no end. God forbid that I use the word 'mint' in a figure description only to be told that because of a microscopic mark on the inside of the leg means I have overstated its condition and I should refund them half the money they paid.

**** I'm in a bad mood tonight grrrrrr

 

[Michael Sith]

Maybe I'm just being naive, but it stands to reason that these figures were never perfect on the day they were made, mass produced with imperfections.

Take my hat off to you guys Iain and Fuzzy.....I would never have the patience to deal with people wanting perfection.

 

[Bonsai_Tree_Ent]

I have just wasted time this week sending over numerous pictures and descriptions to someone only for them to turn round at the end of it and say no thanks.

This is why it can be painful to deal with vague buyers who contact to ask 'what do you have' - because it takes time and effort to present to them, only to get a no thanks.

 

[PGowdy]

I think the other thing is, Iain, is that people are trying to get 'perfection' at a cut-down price. It's be different if said person said- I wasn't C10 R2D2 and i am willing to pay £50 for it. If that were the case they'd be in their rights to demand perfection. I get the same issue with old sticker packs i sell. Some of them are 40 years old and, for the age, in unbelievable condition. Bare in mind these thing are made out of ****ing paper, for christ's sake! And the price is always ridiculously low, for what they are. And yet i still get complaints of; "The gum was broken", "the pack had a dent in the corner", "there were spider-vein creases on the spine of the alum" etc etc.
Once complaint i got this week, and negative feedback was from someone who bought 2 'split' packs of Gremlins Topps sticker album stickers from 1984 (£1pissing.20!) because, and i quote; "i was't very happy with the packs you sent, hardly any of the stickers had gremlins on". :shock:
Unfortunately we live in a world of entitlement where people are told you can have whatever you want, how ever you want, even if it's unreasonable.
I like my stuff in good condition too, i really do, i'm fairly fussy and wouldn't be seen with a beater in my collection, so i'm fussy and choosy with what i do and don't buy vintage wise but it's with the understanding that the things we collect are not only very old now but were also not made to that high a standard in the first place. My rule is; if it looks mint from 6 feet away... it's mint. :wink: :lol: Honestly, do we ever really get that much closer to these things to really give that much of a ****??

 

[poncho]

i hate the c8.8 c9.3 ratings etc. these sellers pluck numbers out of the air :lol:

 

[Mr-shifter]

Maybe I'm just being naive, but it stands to reason that these figures were never perfect on the day they were made, mass produced with imperfections.

Bingo.

They were cheap, mass produced toys moulded and painted in factories in the far east. People need to get there head around the fact that you could have taken ten of these things off the production line and not one of them would be identical with another.

There are different degrees of "played with-ness" so a mint condition figure would be one with stiff limbs, no deep scratches, big marks or play wear and that smell. If the paint on the head isn't right, well thats how the thing was made.

Like others have said, once you get your head round that, finding a really nice collection is not as hard as it first seems. Everyone strives for perfection at the start. Its about realising what "mint" actually means.

 

[PGowdy]

Maybe I'm just being naive, but it stands to reason that these figures were never perfect on the day they were made, mass produced with imperfections.

There are different degrees of "played with-ness" so a mint condition figure would be one with stiff limbs, no deep scratches, big marks or play wear and that smell. If the paint on the head isn't right, well thats how the thing was made.

I must say i don't agree with that at all and it is one of my biggest pet peeves with sellers. "Mint" should mean "mint". That is; in as good condition as the toy was when it was made. That is what the word means and that is what it should be used for. Sellers describing figures as "mint" that clearly have marks, scratches or paint wear drives me ****ing nuts.
Sorry, not ranting at you, just the general, wide-spread misuse of the word 'mint'. I agree with what you're saying about a mint figure is not necessarily perfect due to factory flaws but at the same time a figure that has ever been played with cannot really be described as "mint".

 

[itfciain]

I think the other thing is, Iain, is that people are trying to get 'perfection' at a cut-down price. It's be different if said person said- I wasn't C10 R2D2 and i am willing to pay £50 for it. If that were the case they'd be in their rights to demand perfection. I get the same issue with old sticker packs i sell. Some of them are 40 years old and, for the age, in unbelievable condition. Bare in mind these thing are made out of ****ing paper, for christ's sake! And the price is always ridiculously low, for what they are. And yet i still get complaints of; "The gum was broken", "the pack had a dent in the corner", "there were spider-vein creases on the spine of the alum" etc etc.
Once complaint i got this week, and negative feedback was from someone who bought 2 'split' packs of Gremlins Topps sticker album stickers from 1984 (£1pissing.20!) because, and i quote; "i was't very happy with the packs you sent, hardly any of the stickers had gremlins on". :shock:
Unfortunately we live in a world of entitlement where people are told you can have whatever you want, how ever you want, even if it's unreasonable.
I like my stuff in good condition too, i really do, i'm fairly fussy and wouldn't be seen with a beater in my collection, so i'm fussy and choosy with what i do and don't buy vintage wise but it's with the understanding that the things we collect are not only very old now but were also not made to that high a standard in the first place. My rule is; if it looks mint from 6 feet away... it's mint. :wink: :lol: Honestly, do we ever really get that much closer to these things to really give that much of a ****??

I agree completely Pete - I saw someone sell a minty DSD for $75 earlier this week - I sold pretty much the same figure on here for 22GBP - I price things as to their market value and only sell things on here that I know will make (most) collectors happy

I take loads of pics and offer to take even more - but sometimes that it to my detriment as the pictures can often show magnify something that to the naked eye isn't really obvious

Case in point is this Han - for me he is a piece in collector condition, nice stiff limbs, little to no paint loss and generally in great shape.

When I took a close up pic of his head you can see a micro dot of paintloss under his chin - now I appreciate that it might put people off and that is fine - but to be honest I would imagine he came out of the factory with that

Also, I was asking 16GBP for this one - now I have seen a lot worse sell for a lot more on eBay

 

[theforceuk]

When ever I see that video with all the figures being chucked in a big plastic bin, it makes me wonder what U graders and collectors think of it. Just proves what a load of nonsense the U grade is In my opinion.

 

[poncho]

When ever I see that video with all the figures being chucked in a big plastic bin, it makes me wonder what U graders and collectors think of it. Just proves what a load of nonsense the U grade is In my opinion.

ditto

 

[Mr-shifter]

I must say i don't agree with that at all and it is one of my biggest pet peeves with sellers. "Mint" should mean "mint". That is; in as good condition as the toy was when it was made. That is what the word means and that is what it should be used for. Sellers describing figures as "mint" that clearly have marks, scratches or paint wear drives me ****ing nuts.
Sorry, not ranting at you, just the general, wide-spread misuse of the word 'mint'. I agree with what you're saying about a mint figure is not necessarily perfect due to factory flaws but at the same time a figure that has ever been played with cannot really be described as "mint".

Pete, you misunderstand me. Mint is as you say, as it was when made, or completely unplayed with. So a mint loose figure would be one that has been previously taken off the card by either a collector because it was damaged, cheap or bought to collect at the time or just after, or an older child who got star wars toys as a kid but was too old to want to play with them, so they were taken off the card and stuck on a shelf somewhere. In the scale of "unplayed with-ness" mint would be unplayed with.

But you have to also consider mint figures will have (or at least could have and still be mint) scratches, marks and paint wear on them. This is because of the way they were handled in the factory or the way they were stuck on the card. I have a tusken raider 12 back where you can see all of the paint from the tips of the horns on the inside of the bubble. This was why I worded it as I did. Perhaps the wording was a bit ambiguous.

The words mint, good, C10, C7 are all objective. Even grading doesn't standardise things. Nothing beats buying something in person.

 

[PGowdy]

I must say i don't agree with that at all and it is one of my biggest pet peeves with sellers. "Mint" should mean "mint". That is; in as good condition as the toy was when it was made. That is what the word means and that is what it should be used for. Sellers describing figures as "mint" that clearly have marks, scratches or paint wear drives me ****ing nuts.
Sorry, not ranting at you, just the general, wide-spread misuse of the word 'mint'. I agree with what you're saying about a mint figure is not necessarily perfect due to factory flaws but at the same time a figure that has ever been played with cannot really be described as "mint".

Pete, you misunderstand me. Mint is as you say, as it was when made, or completely unplayed with. So a mint loose figure would be one that has been previously taken off the card by either a collector because it was damaged, cheap or bought to collect at the time or just after, or an older child who got star wars toys as a kid but was too old to want to play with them, so they were taken off the card and stuck on a shelf somewhere. In the scale of "unplayed with-ness" mint would be unplayed with.

But you have to also consider mint figures will have (or at least could have and still be mint) scratches, marks and paint wear on them. This is because of the way they were handled in the factory or the way they were stuck on the card. I have a tusken raider 12 back where you can see all of the paint from the tips of the horns on the inside of the bubble. This was why I worded it as I did. Perhaps the wording was a bit ambiguous.

The words mint, good, C10, C7 are all objective. Even grading doesn't standardise things. Nothing beats buying something in person.

I'm with you now. It was the "scratches" that threw me. I assumed you were referring to play-wear. Not really noticed scratches before in a mint figure.
Buy, yeah, we are in agreement.

 

[Mr-shifter]

I'm with you now. It was the "scratches" that threw me. I assumed you were referring to play-wear. Not really noticed scratches before in a mint figure.
Buy, yeah, we are in agreement.

MOC Death star droids spring to mind. A figure that it seems is impossible to get loose in perfect condition.

 

[theslider]

I think the other thing is, Iain, is that people are trying to get 'perfection' at a cut-down price. It's be different if said person said- I wasn't C10 R2D2 and i am willing to pay £50 for it. If that were the case they'd be in their rights to demand perfection. I get the same issue with old sticker packs i sell. Some of them are 40 years old and, for the age, in unbelievable condition. Bare in mind these thing are made out of ****ing paper, for christ's sake! And the price is always ridiculously low, for what they are. And yet i still get complaints of; "The gum was broken", "the pack had a dent in the corner", "there were spider-vein creases on the spine of the alum" etc etc.
Once complaint i got this week, and negative feedback was from someone who bought 2 'split' packs of Gremlins Topps sticker album stickers from 1984 (£1pissing.20!) because, and i quote; "i was't very happy with the packs you sent, hardly any of the stickers had gremlins on". :shock:
Unfortunately we live in a world of entitlement where people are told you can have whatever you want, how ever you want, even if it's unreasonable.
I like my stuff in good condition too, i really do, i'm fairly fussy and wouldn't be seen with a beater in my collection, so i'm fussy and choosy with what i do and don't buy vintage wise but it's with the understanding that the things we collect are not only very old now but were also not made to that high a standard in the first place. My rule is; if it looks mint from 6 feet away... it's mint. :wink: :lol: Honestly, do we ever really get that much closer to these things to really give that much of a ****??

I've seen nice Hans like that before so I'd definitely say it's something that occurred at the factory.



I agree completely Pete - I saw someone sell a minty DSD for $75 earlier this week - I sold pretty much the same figure on here for 22GBP - I price things as to their market value and only sell things on here that I know will make (most) collectors happy

I take loads of pics and offer to take even more - but sometimes that it to my detriment as the pictures can often show magnify something that to the naked eye isn't really obvious

Case in point is this Han - for me he is a piece in collector condition, nice stiff limbs, little to no paint loss and generally in great shape.

When I took a close up pic of his head you can see a micro dot of paintloss under his chin - now I appreciate that it might put people off and that is fine - but to be honest I would imagine he came out of the factory with that

Also, I was asking 16GBP for this one - now I have seen a lot worse sell for a lot more on eBay

 

[maxf]

I'd better weigh in here, as this thread is about me. Iain was kind enough to send me some photos of some figures I wanted to buy.

I have collected for years. I know C10 doesn't exist for 95% of figures. However, I'm only after the first 12 figures loose, so I don't think I'm unrealistic in looking for as close to mint figures as possible. I'm not after a bargain, but I also don't want to buy a load of AFA figures, paying the AFA tax, only to break them out of the cases - although I accept I'll probably have to do this with a couple (I'm looking at an AFA R2-D2 and Leia at the moment). I don't want to support AFA, so was trying to do this outside of that system.

The Han Iain posted a photo of is a good illustration of what I want. The figure looks great and I'm sure the limbs are tight - but the black spot on his chest would be the first thing I saw; therefore it wasn't any good to me. If it was a dot on the back of his neck, I couldn't care less. I don't doubt it came from the factory like that though.

I know its possible to buy very near mint loose figures as I have done it before - although there certainly seem to be fewer around now, not in plastic coffins anyway, so I'll keep searching.

And before anybody tars me with a crazy mint collector brush; my MOC stuff and MIB stuff over the years has generally been C8-ish - but then I've gone for some of the tougher items so had to be realistic rather than picky.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

 

[sith-smith]

The words mint, good, C10, C7 are all objective.

I'd agree though would argue that they are subjective. C10 to one person may only be C9
to another. Essentially it's all subject to the individual's understanding of what C10 is as there is no absolute, objective understanding of it. It's conceivable that one could be established but whether everyone would accept it, is something else entirely!

Just like the word 'rare' which is my personal pet peeve, these words are often used to.justify or encourage a high price.