Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller

lee gray said:

Jez said:

I've wanted to comment earlier but stuck at work and unable to.

Yes, this was released whilst one of Jeff's biggest friends in the community was knowingly out of the country and on holiday. Maybe this was a shrewd chess play move, maybe it was a coincidence?

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That was the one thing over everything else I was wondering about myself and maybe thats why the initial post was rushed to get it out there quick while his friend was away even though I dont know who this guy is as only hear hes in las vegas unless i missed his name.

Everyone wants to be right and i know some might be annoying or wind ups, i re read some of mine and sounded like a prick but i really dont think name calling to others is a adult way of dealing with things.

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I actually contacted Marc H to ask him about the situation via FB & had no idea he was out of the country until he informed me by way of return reply, it's was purely by chance, I also regard Marc as a good online buddy, I also sent him the link to this so he was fully aware of it.

Marty _Norfleet said:

Just to be clear these two pieces came from Jeff Glanville. He said (Its a real sham they have been removed from the baggies as I would of offered you a refund on return.)
If the baggies are fake and the figures have been tampered with, what does it matter that they are not in the baggies?

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I have further findings & question marks about these myself & will be adding some of it asap for everyone's consideration.

BTW still only on page 22 or something trying to digest everything in detail

olisuds said:

I think Marty's post was waiting to be approved hence he didn't follow up with more info at the time.

Then it all got lost amongst the arguing about terminology and "the way it was handled"

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Indeed it was Oil - where's the like button :lol:

trappedtexan said:

May 2013 Teebo is purchased on ebay presumably by Jeff
bought teebo.PNG

August 2013 send frank a picture with the logray baggie, a pruneface baggie, and an empty baggie and offers them to him. Frank does not say outright they are fake but says that no star wars toys have been confirmed to be in these and they are from strawberry shortcake line as well as saying their authenticity is questionable.

email to frank.PNG
baggies frank saw.PNG

September 2014 Sold the logray baggie with red text on ebay This baggie was not seen prior, but this sale is after Frank has said these baggies are questionable and can not be confirmed

sold logray.PNG

Just a few things I have put together so far by doing my own digging. I am presuming the teebos are the saem as they look the same to me, but the purchase of the teebo is irrelevant anyway since the sale of the logray is after the email to frank is where the main point is.

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Indeed same baggies same text & yes all I know they are from a different toyline entirely, no star wars figures have ever been known or are ever likely to be in this kind of baggies, the only known example of a red text star wars is in a Macau red text baggie which is nothing like this thype & also stupidly rare.

I know there is no date to confirm on the same of the others, but I know it was many months after I confirmed via email that they were not right,I assumed at the time Jeff would just open them & discard the baggies & as said had it not been for those red baggies being sold on after me informing him, I may never have looked in to Jeff's sales more closely or scrutinized the ones I had bought from him previously, several of which I still have including one of the 3 SW-a lando's I know he has sold in the past could of years, that alone was a point that had my alarm bells ringing like mad.

You see the lando SW-a baggies is insanely rare, it was only ever issued for the ESB toy fair mock up stand of which maybe 10 or 20 at the most I would say were produced, of those only the ones actually used for the toy fair were suspected to have come with these SW-a baggies, all the others which were issued to salesmen as promo samples (if I do understand this correctly) came with the more readily available ESB-c baggies, so in essence there should theoretically only ever have been about half a dozen of them produced, so 3 to go through one persons seller account in a matter of a couple of years & me already owning one did not make a lot of sense to me.

I decided to bit on the one he had listed on open auction on ebay & I won it at a really fair price, I was delighted as it was an upgrade for the one I had already, sadly that one I had already has a little tear in the baggies, it's taken me many years to put the full set of these 6 SW-a baggies together for the mock up stand, the huge loss for me above anything else it the one with thee tear I sold to a collecting buddy in Holland is legit, on close inspection the one I got is a fake, so now the set I worked one for many years is again incomplete with the likelihood of ever finding another genuine example is near impossible, I am saying all this as it's one good example of how a refund just does not cut it, yes I should have spotted this, but at the time I had a lot on & just put it on a shelf until well after I sold the other I had one by which time it's to late.

Here is the genuine one I sold on -



This is the one I got from Jeff, I no doubt have email conformation of the sale as well as PP info -



There is simple no righting this as the set equates to thousands of pounds & many years years invested hunting ruined by one of the fakes.

I have as said all other 5 for the set as well as many special offer vehicles that came with SW-a baggies, every one was the same text type all from known collectors & not a single one with this terrible blotchy white paint application, I am more than happy to post pictures of multiples or all of them as a comparison if needed

SublevelStudios said:

Is it not within the realms of probability that these could have been issued from some factory or another in these red text baggies? For whatever reason?

With all due respect to Frank, not everyting is known or indeed catalogued - even in 2016 new discoveries are made.

So is there a chance they could be legit from BITD or are we saying categorically that these do not and should not exist?

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They do not exist, the closest know examples I think from Kenner were the ones for the Mask like & still not star wars related -

To say at the very least some dodgy things have been done by Jeff and whether on a small or large scale its still too much.

I really didnt think though that such such a thread would have so many people being divided and good friends arguing/disagreeing with eachother.

Im sure that wasnt the intention. I mean with facts then everyone should be travelling on the same journey.

I've been trying to keep up best I can with all of this while on holiday but haven't had the time to sit down and reply until now.

I want to say a quick thanks to Frank for all his hard work within the baggie collecting world and for trying his best to spearhead this investigation and bring it to peoples attention.

I've read through most of the posts and comments on SWF. Its been an interesting read to say the least. While some people have raised fair points and criticisms I have to say that I was quite shocked at the amount of people posting who were seemingly more worried about this dealers reputation taking a beating than the fact that they had just found out that he's been selling fakes for a period of years!

As has been said by others, outing a bad seller or dodgy community member without contacting them first isn't a new thing so I'm not sure why that's such an issue although I am in agreement that the wording of Franks initial post wasn't well thought out.


The problem here is that Jeff and the legitimacy of some of the baggies he sells has come up in conversation many times before now, mostly in private but there have been a few watch out threads too. I started one a few years ago myself (its been linked several times now) and instead of a "thanks for the heads up" response that one might expect after warning about fake items I had a load of people say what a good seller he was! :roll:

Lets just be clear on something, Jeff HAS been made aware of dodgy items in the past. Whether that was via returns on ebay or through collector opinion/input its not like he thought everything he sold up until now was legit and this is all new to him, he's known for years that people have raised some concerns because they've done so directly with him!

Its worth noting that Frank has actually defended Jeff in the past and/or given him the benefit of the doubt too, so this is nothing personal. I think when the volume of fakes increased and it became apparent that they all traced back to Jeff, frustration set in and an urge to warn the community become Franks number one priority..and here we are.

Sure, you can blame Frank for the wrong choice of words in his original post, you can blame him for the way he presented the evidence, you can even blame him for jumping the gun or putting a "good bloke" like Jeff in the firing line but at some point you have to stop and think.. If there weren't people like Frank out there, people that cared so much about a particular area of our great hobby that they would put their own reputation (and in this case their own collection..that's the sound of the baggie market collapsing btw) on the line just to stop others falling foul of some sellers counterfeit items, then every single one of you would be up **** creek without a paddle. Totally unaware of the legitimacy of the items in your own collection, proudly displaying your billy boy samples, pristine Toni mocs..or some of Jeff's Baggies.


If it had only been one dodgy item returned or one issue raised we wouldn't be here doing this 25+ pages later but its clearly not and it includes all kinds of bagged variations from Kenner to palitoy and even Meccano's.

Do I think he's making the counterfeit baggies himself? Honestly I'm still undecided and realistically its unlikely that we will ever know but even if he isn't the guy cranking these out he IS still the one selling them. These have been sent out to unsuspecting buyers and collectors around the world for a good few years and as a seasoned collector/dealer he has to know what he's selling, end of. There is no excuse for passing on that many dodgy figures, none whatsoever..so please don't try to find one for him just because you've shared a smile and a hello with him at a convention.


I'm glad to see more evidence being found and brought into the thread, especially by those who are using their time to investigate his past sales and listings on worthpoint etc.

At this point it's safe to say that he's guilty of selling fakes. He's also guilty of selling on fakes that he's been told weren't quite right and now hes guilty of telling few white lies about what he's sold or hasn't sold.. However this came out, I'm glad it did and I sincerely hope every single baggie collector is reading this and taking note.

lee gray said:

Stuart Skinner said:

OK, this evidence is far more damning than the circumstantial stuff we saw in earlier posts. Although Frank doesn't state they're fake he does question the authenticity, he did also say on the podcast he'd never sold red text baggies. This doesn't look good.

Edd, I feel a bit for you pal, you seem to be have left alone to fight this battle, the issues have been ignited and then the rest have either bolted or never gotten involved.

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And momike but apart from that why have all the otthers been quiet ?

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not all of them have an account, some were in the group for specifics like a french expert to confirm our thoughts on the red sticker meccano baggies, I would hope soon as they are all able they will say what they can,not everyone in the investigations group had a lot to input, but like I said Stepene was brought in to confirm the red sticker baggies, Andy Raymond (MP expert IMO) was asked to come on to take a look at various Kenner examples etc etc, not everyone has had a huge role in this much like Edd who I feel for deeply as he has been doing all he can to keep things on a level playing field in my & others absence & has been getting a right good ear bending from finestcomics for his effort, whilst on the subject of Joe I think it is ?? finestcomics - repainted touched up / re-sealed etc in the baggie world IME it all = fake & seriously frown'd upon & never accepted unlike some other hobbies

Guys I have looked through thousands of pics via worth point searching terms like logray baggie, logray bagged, vintage logray bag, etc... I can not find the red text bag being sold prior to where Jeff sold it. Does that mean it wasn't sold via eBay? No, it is possible it predates or maybe it was a bad listing or something. I am just putting this out here so you know I tried and am done searching. It's not a major key factor where he got the logray anyhow as the main point was he recieved it at some point and sold it after knowing that baggie is questionable in authenticity.

Thanks I appreciate your efforts

Joe said:

If there weren't people like Frank out there, people that cared so much about a particular area of our great hobby that they would put their own reputation (and in this case their own collection..that's the sound of the baggie market collapsing btw) on the line just to stop others falling foul of some sellers counterfeit items, then every single one of you would be up **** creek without a paddle. Totally unaware of the legitimacy of the items in your own collection, proudly displaying your billy boy samples, pristine Toni mocs..or some of Jeff's Baggies.

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^ this.
As a new collector I would be really pissed off if information like this was withheld from the rest of us because of concerns about a seller's feelings / reputation. I can make my own mind up about that thanks!

Thanks Frank for your hard work. The rest of us would be screwed (or perhaps just blissfully ignorant) without it.

OK, I have been following this thread with great interest since it began. I'm not a baggie collector, nor do I know Jeff, nor have I ever bought anything from him. I don't have anything but my opinions to offer regarding him and the fakes highlighted in this thread, and since plenty of others have already offered us theirs, I'll not burden any of you with mine

What I will do however is join in with those thanking Frank and the team for their magnificent efforts in researching and compiling all of the information presented to the community in this invaluable thread. This was clearly not a quick or easy task, but it was a vital one for the integrity of the Vintage baggie collecting community, and even though I am not part of that particular corner of our community, I still offer my sincere thanks for the resilience, dedication and altruism shown in presenting the evidence here. You have done Vintage collecting a great service.

Great thanks too must, I feel, be directed towards Edd, who cut a lonely figure at times in this thread as he resolutely stuck to his guns and remained both calm and focused in his responses as a torrent of comments flooded his way. Edd, I think you dealt with things with great integrity and good grace, when many other people might have done rather less well.

Thank you to all of you.

Marty _Norfleet said:

Hi, I bought these Palitoy Fett baggies from a guy in the UK in April. I sent them into AFA and they say not only did this figure not come in this type of baggie, they both have overlapping paint on the head and belt which differs in color texture and accuracy from the original paint underneath. I have posted some pictures under a blacklight. When AFA inform me about the baggies I gave them the go-ahead to inspect the figures. The main reason I bought these 2 figures was because I've been trying for years to find a near perfect example.

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Further to Marty's post & before I go on at any length I would first like to say that if these tro logo fett's were refused a grade regardless of if they were opened by AFA (which BTW if they were real would be a travesty IMO) & have been refused a grade for obvious tampering - having clear signs of being repainted then a full refund should be issued under Jeff's "no questions asked refunds policy" IMHO - my thinking - if they had been fine they would have graded & there would never have been any need for a refund simple as that.

It is worth noting that they differ in paint apps with one being a painted dart & the other unpainted even the paint colour of the yellow /mustard on the dart are, which to me would indicate they came from different batches, to me it also looks like at least one has touch ups to the belt, it is also worth nothing that the paint type used on the figures in the production process do not show up under a blacklight so even if it has been touched up at production due to bad take of the paint in the spray mask stage any further subsequent paint added would have not been viable under the black light as a different colour as the exact same paint type would have been used.

Below are examples I have on the baggie guide which till now I just took as being cool paint app variations, I will get to my point about all this further down to summarize after pointing out bit's on each so please bear with me.



Painted dart (mustard) /dark belt / painted knee / dark blaster / font at roughly crotch height



unpainted knee /unpainted dart (lighter lemon yellow) / lighter blue blaster / dark belt / font at shoulder height



Unpainted Dart / painted knee / belt with dark in the middle but light brown on both legs to the belt / dark blaster / teat at knee height

So to summarize the above - these were all bought from the same place - Jeff, all 3 are different in terms of paint app's one has a different colour weapon & Marty's 2 are also different (paint app's & blasters) these were all offered for sale with mailer boxes which "quote by Jeff" came with them when I got them & offered up for sale with them so though maybe not stated as a tri fett mailer, the images would indicate so, can't remember if they were indeed listed as mailer or just with mailer boxes, though I am sure someone can can clear that point up for us, to me also quite an important issue is where the font placement is on them as well as the boxes being the incorrect size for any known & confirmed fett mailer be in kenner SW or ESB era or Palitoy as all know examples are identical in dimensions, the boxes offered with these are the same size as is associated with the Nien Nunb mailer.

Now my reasoning -

1. till these turned up I owned the only ever confirmed palitoy-a tri logo fett which I will post a photos of below as a reference, I got it off long time baggie collector Del Hooper who was just selling up & getting out of the hobby when I was coming in to it, so it's been about a long time, it has the light blue blaster.

2. If these all came from the same place I.E Jeff bought them in for onward sale, then surely with the sum in question there would be some record of the transaction & a name of the seller as he had a lot of these I count 5 above alone & I know of at last one more owned by someone I know also from Jeff, most likely a great deal more of them as well that I do not know of, it's a recent transaction so must be some paper trail?

3. why if they all came from the same place would they have so many differences??, surely if they were from a single run which I would expect they were (hypothetical) then would not the entire batch be of the same paint applications as well as variation I.E all painted knee + unpainted dart + dark belt + same colour weapon for example??.

4. If they did indeed all come from the same batch would the bags not have also come from the same batch?, if so would the font not have been roughly in the same place on all of them give or take a few MM's as it the norm with batch runs off machinery.

For the record I am not stating they are fakes, I am stating there are a great many "possible" red flags with a single batch of figures of the same type, which I find worrying as a collector of baggies.

If however (speculation) they had been made up recently by "someone" not saying Jeff himself directly or maybe even indirectly as I simple do not have all the answers I would wish, but that would certainly explain the vast variations, does this not strike anyone else as a little odd at bear minimum??.

I know there is by no means anything concrete or conclusive, but there are enough red flags for this to warrant full investigation IMO considering many of these changed hands at I think up to 750 quid a pop,so not small potatoes by anyone's standards.

This is my older example which as said till these showed up was the only one found in the past 20+ years -



is also worthy of note that the oldest known example would seem to have a different top seal to any of these other examples from what I can tell from the photos alone.

Joe said:

I've been trying to keep up best I can with all of this while on holiday but haven't had the time to sit down and reply until now.

I want to say a quick thanks to Frank for all his hard work within the baggie collecting world and for trying his best to spearhead this investigation and bring it to peoples attention.

I've read through most of the posts and comments on SWF. Its been an interesting read to say the least. While some people have raised fair points and criticisms I have to say that I was quite shocked at the amount of people posting who were seemingly more worried about this dealers reputation taking a beating than the fact that they had just found out that he's been selling fakes for a period of years!

As has been said by others, outing a bad seller or dodgy community member without contacting them first isn't a new thing so I'm not sure why that's such an issue although I am in agreement that the wording of Franks initial post wasn't well thought out.


The problem here is that Jeff and the legitimacy of some of the baggies he sells has come up in conversation many times before now, mostly in private but there have been a few watch out threads too. I started one a few years ago myself (its been linked several times now) and instead of a "thanks for the heads up" response that one might expect after warning about fake items I had a load of people say what a good seller he was! :roll:

Lets just be clear on something, Jeff HAS been made aware of dodgy items in the past. Whether that was via returns on ebay or through collector opinion/input its not like he thought everything he sold up until now was legit and this is all new to him, he's known for years that people have raised some concerns because they've done so directly with him!

Its worth noting that Frank has actually defended Jeff in the past and/or given him the benefit of the doubt too, so this is nothing personal. I think when the volume of fakes increased and it became apparent that they all traced back to Jeff, frustration set in and an urge to warn the community become Franks number one priority..and here we are.

Sure, you can blame Frank for the wrong choice of words in his original post, you can blame him for the way he presented the evidence, you can even blame him for jumping the gun or putting a "good bloke" like Jeff in the firing line but at some point you have to stop and think.. If there weren't people like Frank out there, people that cared so much about a particular area of our great hobby that they would put their own reputation (and in this case their own collection..that's the sound of the baggie market collapsing btw) on the line just to stop others falling foul of some sellers counterfeit items, then every single one of you would be up **** creek without a paddle. Totally unaware of the legitimacy of the items in your own collection, proudly displaying your billy boy samples, pristine Toni mocs..or some of Jeff's Baggies.


If it had only been one dodgy item returned or one issue raised we wouldn't be here doing this 25+ pages later but its clearly not and it includes all kinds of bagged variations from Kenner to palitoy and even Meccano's.

Do I think he's making the counterfeit baggies himself? Honestly I'm still undecided and realistically its unlikely that we will ever know but even if he isn't the guy cranking these out he IS still the one selling them. These have been sent out to unsuspecting buyers and collectors around the world for a good few years and as a seasoned collector/dealer he has to know what he's selling, end of. There is no excuse for passing on that many dodgy figures, none whatsoever..so please don't try to find one for him just because you've shared a smile and a hello with him at a convention.


I'm glad to see more evidence being found and brought into the thread, especially by those who are using their time to investigate his past sales and listings on worthpoint etc.

At this point it's safe to say that he's guilty of selling fakes. He's also guilty of selling on fakes that he's been told weren't quite right and now hes guilty of telling few white lies about what he's sold or hasn't sold.. However this came out, I'm glad it did and I sincerely hope every single baggie collector is reading this and taking note.

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Hey Joe, you mention your surprise at the way the community responded when the story broke; the community responded in exactly the way that I have come to expect this community to respond. When someone is very publicly called out and accused very explicitly of faking baggies and knowingly distributing fake baggies, but any tangible evidence to support this claim is absent, the community questioned it. Try to look at it from the point of view of someone not involved in the investigation; all we got from that first post on Tuesday evening was essentially baseless accusations and a shitload of pictures of fake baggies. The collective of accusers didn't fare any better on Wednesday and Thursday due to some backtracking around the accusations, and it wasn't until Friday that we actually really started to see some tangible evidence. Had the original post included evidence (similar to that presented on Friday) alongside the less sensationalised but ultimately more provable accusations, then I believe that this thread would have looked a whole lot different.

That said, I don't think I've seen a single person being negative about the investigation itself and the phenomenal amount of work that has gone into it - to have people so dedicated and safeguarding the hobby is just brilliant and thoroughly appreciated!

Hello.....

First time ......comment....excuse format (I'm on the phone and this is what we use at work) and general mistakes ie spelling and grammar

Firstly....I would like to set the scene.... I'm one of those whom is part of the group whom looked at/investigated a number baggies and other items that Jeff sold off, mainly in the last of couple of years...which were deemed in general ...fake...

I have just read through all the pages here and seen the conflict, often between long time friends over this issue (almost saga now)....I'm not a desktop warrior as I read somewhere here but my job does mean I have to be a warrior occasionally......the investigation was set out not to destroy someone credibility but to save what many considered a grave injustice going on, right infront of our noses.....it would have been easy for Frank and the rest of the boys just to roll over and ignore....very easy.......in the end, what does Frank and the group get out of this, apart from helping out the community .....nothing... helping fellow collectors is the No 1 aim.....followed closely by educating them.....and where applicable, if you have had dealing with Jeff, to check their/your collection.......

Could it have been dealt with differently and therefore better???? sure ....there are lessons to be learnt....for sure......

Before this investigation, I have done a number of transactions with Jeff, indeed many thousands of pounds/dolllars worth....My area of focus is not exactly baggies but packs/mailers but have bought a number of baggies off Jeff to complete those packs/mailers at times... most of my buys were complete and/or sealed packs/mailers and none of the baggies identified. I have been offered plenty of items from Jeff, looking back now, that I'm so glad I didn't buy ie the trilogo fett mailer (which he suddenly had a large amount of but prior to, there was only small amount ever found, anywhere).. I considered Jeff a good guy to deal with prior to this investigation and infact thats a general consensus, including Frank..... but I would also classify him as what we call down under, a bit "dodgy" at times. What do I think of Jeff now??? not sure to be honest .....properly disappointment more than anything I guess....the sad thing for me is I often linked his sales to friends to buy (he's trustworthy and recommended by me so they bought) and it has come back to haunt me with a number being found to be fake....and the main reason why I joined the investigation group....

Additionally, I consider I'm very good friends with Frank (He may think otherwise lol) ....He one of the best people I have EVER come across in any of the forums'......he goes out of his way again and again and again to help out me any others whom want help or advice....His job and position is often, no, 99% self-less ....and this investigation, like the baggies/mailer guide attached to your website is testament to his amazing dedication .....and knowledge...

One point that I think is missing and could and properly will lead to a lot more fakes being found in the future is many baggie collectors simply don't grade and rely on the integrity of the seller (with often limited knowledge themselves)........it seems a lot people here just assume most baggies get graded and I strongly believe its just the opposite....the vast majority have not been graded and therefore AFA , UKG or the new guy CAS, have not had an opportunity to reject any possible fakes .....its only when the examples like what's on this topic ie the Trilogo Fett baggies were examined/graded, that it was rejected.....could have easy sat in someone collection and the collector knows no different....ignorance is bliss is the term... ....its a great strategy from Jeff, only give money back if its proven to be fake....and even then, no bad comments on ebay as the issue has been resolved.....He can't lose in the end using this system...unless the system is identified....

i appreciate the opportunity to talk....

cheers

Shane

Wow,

I've been looking after family over the holidays and not really looked at SWFUK much for a few weeks, otherwise I would have posted earlier. I noticed a Boba Fett ESB-b baggie on ebay in November last year with a buy now or best offer auction and contacted the seller (Jeff) with an offer. He told me that the one he had up for auction had sold, but that he had another one coming in. In later emails he said that it had come in 2 days prior to selling it to me. When I got it, and said it was a fake, Jeff replied on 30 Nov 16 that "other than notice it was a bit worn, did not note anything odd with it".

Here is the baggie:



It probably looks familiar by now. Jeff sent me a small picture with a Palitoy-K IG88 (that was OK) through ebay and with that and his feedback, we came to a deal outside of ebay. It was only when it arrived, that I realised it didn't look good. I also had a Bossk in the same baggie type and it didn't match up with that either. I have to admit, Jeff was very easy to deal with in getting my money back (although I had to pay for registered postage from Aust to the UK), but it all worked out in the end.

The problem is that if I read the previous posts correctly, he has had this type of Boba baggie before and known they were off. He then told me that he got this only two days before selling to me, which doesn't seem right as he has had the exact same dodgy Fett baggie before - and known they were dodgy.

I hope this helps. As I say, I got my money back and he was very good about that. But it seems he knew that it wasn't right and still sold it to me saying he "did not note anything odd with it". That seems a bit thin now.

Good on you Frank for having the care (and courage) to highlight this for others.

Cheers
Pat

Yes, I agree with Lom. This is what we should have had 3 days ago. This is what supports the OP. I have received a lot of messages bashing me - can anyone post a single quote where I have said he is innocent? Can anyone post a single quote where I've said he's too nice (insert any word you wish) to be doing any wrong? Can anyone post a single quote where I said he is not guilty / exonerated?

I can quote posts where I said he has sold fakes. I can quote posts where I have thanked those involved in the investigation. I can quote posts where I have said Frank (IMO) is the baggie expert and I value his opinion over AFA (and I will add any other person in the community too). I consider Frank a mate and we've been in FB chat a lot. He doesn't agree with the podcast and that's totally fine with me. It's his opinion.

I will say again. Nothing posted until yesterday was concrete and was entirely circumstantial to me (and a hell of a lot of others.) There was no way I was going to destroy a guys reputation due to this. It's not who I am and I'm proud of that.

It is no good sitting on a huge pile of evidence (gathered over months and shared between a few), release some of it and expect us to see what you saw.

I must admit, the attitude of some is now questioning my role in this hobby. Some people are upset I (more than me) didn't immediately join the pitch fork brigade and destroy him. Look at TT. How long did it take for the hunt for start? Jason had a hell of a lot of questions to answer before he was believed. The watch out threads were not updated for jeff. Where was the help for the community there? I've been quoted above from the podcast where I asked him direct questions about selling fake baggies. I did not shy away from anything, nor did the other 2.

This has always been my pov:

He has sold fake baggies.
I would like to see him at FF to help identify what he has done and he can explain / refund / do whatever to make it right for the community

This is now my pov based on yesterday's evidence:
as above +
He has sold baggies he was told was fake

And that is because I have now seen the evidence.

If some people don't like that. Fine. I don't care who I lose as a friend. At the moment I don't care if I get booted from here. This last 3 or 4 days (and especially messages I've received on FB) has changed this forum for me. I will not EVER join the witch hunt unless I see sufficient evidence to join. Don't cry if I don't share your point of view.

And I'll say it again. Huge thanks to Frank (and everyone else) who has exposed this. It is very much appreciated. The time you invest in the community is appreciated and I have heavily leant on you when I've needed to for advice. Overall this has not been handled well, but the intentions were there.

I would quote Loms post replying to Joe above but suffice to say this is exactly how I feel about it.

There is now plenty of evidence coming in. It's not looking good. Lots of 'holes in the Swiss cheese' lining up now. With the amount of examples that have come up light in the last 24 hours it looks like this story has turned a new chapter.

There has been some clever investigation work over the last few days coupled with more people (buyers) coming out of the wood work. To have this in one place on this forum has been an excellent idea.
You guys might have this in the bag (gie)

Sorry, will also say I appreciate the support that I have had too. Very welcome and I'm glad some people could see my pov from the off.

Rich and the podcast boys, your only failing in this is being too nice! That is who you guys are and don't change, nobody expected Jeremy Paxman!

The interview was very gentle, and it allowed Jeff to ramble away with broad generalised answers. But the one time you did stick him with a specific question about the red text baggies you actually drew a response from him that could be cross checked and proven to be a lie - so the interview was instrumental in uncovering the truth.

Hope you boys keep doing what you're doing - it is massively appreciated - entertaining and contributing to the community and the hobby!