Long Time suspected FAKE baggies scam / seller
- Thread starter Frunkstar
- Start date
Here's some details if you're too lazy to read the thread properly before spouting nonsense:
Frunkstar said:SW-a genuine example first -
Below some examples of the suspected fakes, note the poor font quality & the off top seal on the R5 with the red background which is currently listed on ebay, sadly these have been in circulation long enough to have switched hands a few times, I think the SW-a & b baggies are some of the first to have been attempted, so have been doing the circuit for some time.
finestcomics
Padawan
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edd_jedi said:
Perfect, thanks. It's not fake, it's touched up baggie. It should be cited as such in the visual example.
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I'm no expert at all with baggies, although I must have ripped many open in the 80's when I received my mail-aways. But I just wondered if the problem could be a lot wider than this current revelation??
Some of the baggies shown are very bad, but could better examples, that could fool people today, be being manufactured, maybe for many years now, as the process of getting a mint fig and heat sealing it into the correct size bag with applied lettering and then ageing by rubbing etc. be going on right now, on a larger scale, with the vast increases of money that the market now commands being the motivation to get the quality of these better and better We've all seen the various sw fakes, boxes / inserts etc. coming onto the market in the last ten years affecting all areas of the hobby.
I think with the amount of money these things now command it's dangerous times for any collector investing in this area.
Some of the baggies shown are very bad, but could better examples, that could fool people today, be being manufactured, maybe for many years now, as the process of getting a mint fig and heat sealing it into the correct size bag with applied lettering and then ageing by rubbing etc. be going on right now, on a larger scale, with the vast increases of money that the market now commands being the motivation to get the quality of these better and better We've all seen the various sw fakes, boxes / inserts etc. coming onto the market in the last ten years affecting all areas of the hobby.
I think with the amount of money these things now command it's dangerous times for any collector investing in this area.
finestcomics
Padawan
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This is what I'm seeing from the OP:
Frunkstar said:& below some examples of the suspected fakes, every one of which was purchased from Jeff G by various folks I have spoken with to confirm the source -
3 examples of the above ESB-b fett have been known to have been sold buy the seller
If a baggie is painted or printed in a way that makes it look like an other (maybe rarer) baggie, then that makes it a fake in my book.
finestcomics
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edd_jedi said:
For accuracy. I'm asking this from whoever is using this as evidence.
finestcomics
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edd_jedi said:
That's fine. You want to deal with the matter through condescension, I'll keep that in mind when I look at the evidence in it's totality.
But I've already made up my mind on the thoroughness and accuracy of this expose based on this response.
Best of luck, you're going to need it.
finestcomics said:
You've based the accuracy of Frank's expose on the fact you don't like some of the things I am saying? I as in the guy who said he probably has the least in this, two baggies? you're a troll, simple as that. Stop wasting our time.
The OP (who I believe has not posted on this thread yet) just added this to the Facebook group. He will apparently post the original emails here soon. For now blurring out his real name because I have no idea what his forum username is.
A PBP exclusive figure in a Palitoy baggie which would obviously never have existed
A PBP exclusive figure in a Palitoy baggie which would obviously never have existed
Ian_C
Jedi Master
People are getting hung up on fake baggies vs touched up baggies? Isn't that not seeing the forest for the trees?
Maybe there needs to be a distinction between "the fakes" and "the touch ups". Maybe even separate "expose" threads. The common ground here though is that both should not have been sold (or at least not without disclosure in the case of the touch ups).
Whether Jeff is a nice guy or not should be separated from the discussion. Some evil people are the sweetest people in the world in person. Some of the most straight laced guys in the world can be total dicks (like me, lol). Personality is just not a good indication of whether someone is guilty or innocent in a situation like this.
The facts presented are this. A percentage of the excessively numerous baggies he has sold are fake, touched up, or both. The exact number is unknown, but it seems fair based on evidence it's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5% or so. Someone presented a photo of two Fett's that were denied grading due to figure touch up as well (although it's not clear these are attributed to sales from Jeff). Also fact is that there have been a few "watch out" threads over the last few years (here and on RS) about fake/touched up baggies sold by Jeff. Frank has said he has explained some of these tell tale signs of bad baggies to Jeff, and there seems to be evidence he has continued selling some he was advised against.
If we can get past personal connections, bitching about how he was exposed, whether he faked them or bought them that way, squabbles about fake vs touch ups, etc., then he needs to be called out on his selling practices, if nothing else. Countless others have been called out in the past for selling fakes and touch ups. Many of those people were otherwise "nice people", and many sold legit items as well, yet were hammered here and elsewhere. What about Shaun Neinast? That guy has been told about his repro sales, yet continues to sell them (among legit items) - and he is one of the most vilified names in the hobby. By no means am I trying to place Jeff into the same category - but there are similarities, more so if some of the insinuations based on his sales end up being true. Best case is he's clueless and just sells what he has in a vacuum of knowledge regarding which are authentic. Worst case is he produces these, sells them to scam people, and puts on the nice guy act to feign innocence. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, but is mostly unimportant compared to the bigger issue.
Let's stop the infighting, and concentrate on how to continue getting the word out on spotting fakes/touch ups already sold, and to stop Jeff from selling more of them in the future.
Ian
Maybe there needs to be a distinction between "the fakes" and "the touch ups". Maybe even separate "expose" threads. The common ground here though is that both should not have been sold (or at least not without disclosure in the case of the touch ups).
Whether Jeff is a nice guy or not should be separated from the discussion. Some evil people are the sweetest people in the world in person. Some of the most straight laced guys in the world can be total dicks (like me, lol). Personality is just not a good indication of whether someone is guilty or innocent in a situation like this.
The facts presented are this. A percentage of the excessively numerous baggies he has sold are fake, touched up, or both. The exact number is unknown, but it seems fair based on evidence it's somewhere in the neighbourhood of 5% or so. Someone presented a photo of two Fett's that were denied grading due to figure touch up as well (although it's not clear these are attributed to sales from Jeff). Also fact is that there have been a few "watch out" threads over the last few years (here and on RS) about fake/touched up baggies sold by Jeff. Frank has said he has explained some of these tell tale signs of bad baggies to Jeff, and there seems to be evidence he has continued selling some he was advised against.
If we can get past personal connections, bitching about how he was exposed, whether he faked them or bought them that way, squabbles about fake vs touch ups, etc., then he needs to be called out on his selling practices, if nothing else. Countless others have been called out in the past for selling fakes and touch ups. Many of those people were otherwise "nice people", and many sold legit items as well, yet were hammered here and elsewhere. What about Shaun Neinast? That guy has been told about his repro sales, yet continues to sell them (among legit items) - and he is one of the most vilified names in the hobby. By no means am I trying to place Jeff into the same category - but there are similarities, more so if some of the insinuations based on his sales end up being true. Best case is he's clueless and just sells what he has in a vacuum of knowledge regarding which are authentic. Worst case is he produces these, sells them to scam people, and puts on the nice guy act to feign innocence. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle, but is mostly unimportant compared to the bigger issue.
Let's stop the infighting, and concentrate on how to continue getting the word out on spotting fakes/touch ups already sold, and to stop Jeff from selling more of them in the future.
Ian
I've wanted to comment earlier but stuck at work and unable to.
Not at all; if i see someone who isn't able to defend himself, get the **** kicked out of him by a group of guys, I'll do my best as a human being to intervene. It's will be likely that we are all gonna get hurt but at least my conscience will be clear. That's what separates us from the animals.
Regardless of who they are or what they may or may not have done, you don't just watch someone bleed.
I've not been in the collecting world for that long all things considered. The only big scandal I've seen is the TT scandal which was an entirely different kettle of fish as clearly explained by others.
No one has come out of this well: Jeff, Frank, Edd, (the entire accusation team), SWFUK, The Vintage Rebellion, the collecting community, all those who initially picked up the pitch forks, no one. This is all kinds of awful. I feel sick, I dare say most people do too.
I am sure that some people will think that this is irrecoverable and the forum won't be the same. It is recoverable and the forum will endure. Our love of the hobby is causing us to clash, our love for the hobby will also ultimately shine through and we will get through this. A bumpy ride but we will get there.
My 2ps worth.
Yes, the way this was initially presented was awful.
Yes, Jeff was accused of being a manufacturer of fake baggies.
The OP original unedited post: "as far as we can tell Jeff has been doing this for a long time (minimum 4 years), IMO making fake baggies / resealing genuine baggies with swapped out figures & has over that time been improving and trying to perfect those fakes"Yes, the podcast interview wasn't perfect. We had about 5/10 minutes to prepare. We tried our best to give the 'guilty man' a platform. We asked questions, most were questions from this thread.
Yes, there will always be fakes. Yes, there will always be doubt.
Yes, this has split our beloved community and yes I'm bloody gutted about that.
Yes, this was released whilst one of Jeff's biggest friends in the community was knowingly out of the country and on holiday. Maybe this was a shrewd chess play move, maybe it was a coincidence?
Yes, we are now seeing some screen shots and apparent evidence coming to light. It's odd that this wasn't in the OP. It appears that there are now more and more things coming out of the woodwork. I am keen to learn more.
Yes, there is evidence of these Red tape baggies being sold on Ebay (from feedback). It could be possible that these were sold before Jeff offered one to Frank? Not sure if we will ever know.
Yes this whole thing stinks and I have no doubt that dodgy baggies have been sold by Jeff. Knowingly or unwittingly I do not know. Only one man does.
That's obviously fake!!"We see only what we know" a science quote from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Yes there is a lot of doubt over some of the ink quality, spacing, smudges etc. I see that. Just like now I can see an iron mark on an early TT which would have gone unnoticed beforehand. Now we have had it pointed out in big images we can easily see some of the 'obvious' issues. Yeah I totally see that some of these baggies are shockingly bad (home made).
Yes, Frank is upset about the Podcast. Sorry Frank, but that wasn't your choice. Much like Jeff didn't have a choice when you started this thread. You can't throw a hand grenade into a room then dictate where the blast will and won't go.
Yes, I think Jeff should come on to this thread. Anyone can join a forum.
Yes, we were hoping to have a Podcast Part 2 to match our Part 1. It appears that this is incredibly unlikely.
I have a question. Have any baggies come to light with a QC sticker?
Yes MOCs had a QC check. Show me a baggie with a QC sticker; I'm really keen to see one. Why are we so sure that these baggie types which differ so much aren't just different baggie types, different stamps etc. Did kenner etc really give a dam over the quality of these baggies? After all they were just sent in the post etc. maybe we give more of a monkeys about them than Kenner did. There aren't any baggie proofs or Cromalins as far as I'm aware.
There have been lots of keyboard warriors on here, especially initially. Lots of brave people, but having said that, you'd have to be blessed with pretty big balls to go to at least 4 Farthest From events and deliberately sell fake baggies to some of the most knowledgeable collectors in the business. Maybe, just maybe, all you are guilty of is being a bit unorganised, a bit naïve and a bit careless. Maybe you don't give a dam about other people. Maybe you have just been very clever. I just don't know.
I have no doubt that some of these baggies are fake. I have no doubt that Jeff has sold some.
To what extent I don't know.
What i do know is i liked Jeff when i met him just like i liked Frank when i met him. But this isn't about liking people.
What i do know, is you should never ever ever make libellous acquisitions in a public arena without having a watertight business case. The OP was wrong. That's one of the big things which immediately separated the community.
The whole community became divided because of the poor initial post. Regardless of the outcome, and I will stay tuned with interest, I am glad that we gave Jeff a platform to rapidly reply.
We will get through this.
Bootyhunter said:
Not at all; if i see someone who isn't able to defend himself, get the **** kicked out of him by a group of guys, I'll do my best as a human being to intervene. It's will be likely that we are all gonna get hurt but at least my conscience will be clear. That's what separates us from the animals.
Regardless of who they are or what they may or may not have done, you don't just watch someone bleed.
I've not been in the collecting world for that long all things considered. The only big scandal I've seen is the TT scandal which was an entirely different kettle of fish as clearly explained by others.
No one has come out of this well: Jeff, Frank, Edd, (the entire accusation team), SWFUK, The Vintage Rebellion, the collecting community, all those who initially picked up the pitch forks, no one. This is all kinds of awful. I feel sick, I dare say most people do too.
I am sure that some people will think that this is irrecoverable and the forum won't be the same. It is recoverable and the forum will endure. Our love of the hobby is causing us to clash, our love for the hobby will also ultimately shine through and we will get through this. A bumpy ride but we will get there.
My 2ps worth.
Yes, the way this was initially presented was awful.
Yes, Jeff was accused of being a manufacturer of fake baggies.
The OP original unedited post: "as far as we can tell Jeff has been doing this for a long time (minimum 4 years), IMO making fake baggies / resealing genuine baggies with swapped out figures & has over that time been improving and trying to perfect those fakes"Yes, the podcast interview wasn't perfect. We had about 5/10 minutes to prepare. We tried our best to give the 'guilty man' a platform. We asked questions, most were questions from this thread.
Yes, there will always be fakes. Yes, there will always be doubt.
Yes, this has split our beloved community and yes I'm bloody gutted about that.
Yes, this was released whilst one of Jeff's biggest friends in the community was knowingly out of the country and on holiday. Maybe this was a shrewd chess play move, maybe it was a coincidence?
Yes, we are now seeing some screen shots and apparent evidence coming to light. It's odd that this wasn't in the OP. It appears that there are now more and more things coming out of the woodwork. I am keen to learn more.
Yes, there is evidence of these Red tape baggies being sold on Ebay (from feedback). It could be possible that these were sold before Jeff offered one to Frank? Not sure if we will ever know.
Yes this whole thing stinks and I have no doubt that dodgy baggies have been sold by Jeff. Knowingly or unwittingly I do not know. Only one man does.
That's obviously fake!!"We see only what we know" a science quote from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.
Yes there is a lot of doubt over some of the ink quality, spacing, smudges etc. I see that. Just like now I can see an iron mark on an early TT which would have gone unnoticed beforehand. Now we have had it pointed out in big images we can easily see some of the 'obvious' issues. Yeah I totally see that some of these baggies are shockingly bad (home made).
Yes, Frank is upset about the Podcast. Sorry Frank, but that wasn't your choice. Much like Jeff didn't have a choice when you started this thread. You can't throw a hand grenade into a room then dictate where the blast will and won't go.
Yes, I think Jeff should come on to this thread. Anyone can join a forum.
Yes, we were hoping to have a Podcast Part 2 to match our Part 1. It appears that this is incredibly unlikely.
I have a question. Have any baggies come to light with a QC sticker?
Yes MOCs had a QC check. Show me a baggie with a QC sticker; I'm really keen to see one. Why are we so sure that these baggie types which differ so much aren't just different baggie types, different stamps etc. Did kenner etc really give a dam over the quality of these baggies? After all they were just sent in the post etc. maybe we give more of a monkeys about them than Kenner did. There aren't any baggie proofs or Cromalins as far as I'm aware.
There have been lots of keyboard warriors on here, especially initially. Lots of brave people, but having said that, you'd have to be blessed with pretty big balls to go to at least 4 Farthest From events and deliberately sell fake baggies to some of the most knowledgeable collectors in the business. Maybe, just maybe, all you are guilty of is being a bit unorganised, a bit naïve and a bit careless. Maybe you don't give a dam about other people. Maybe you have just been very clever. I just don't know.
I have no doubt that some of these baggies are fake. I have no doubt that Jeff has sold some.
To what extent I don't know.
What i do know is i liked Jeff when i met him just like i liked Frank when i met him. But this isn't about liking people.
What i do know, is you should never ever ever make libellous acquisitions in a public arena without having a watertight business case. The OP was wrong. That's one of the big things which immediately separated the community.
The whole community became divided because of the poor initial post. Regardless of the outcome, and I will stay tuned with interest, I am glad that we gave Jeff a platform to rapidly reply.
We will get through this.
Caswellbot
Sith Lord
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
- Messages
- 3,072
finestcomics said:
So let's consider the word fake for a moment seeing as you are so interested in the finer points...
fake1
feɪk/
adjective
1.
not genuine; imitation or counterfeit.
"she got on the plane with a fake passport"
synonyms: forgery, counterfeit, copy, sham, fraud, hoax, imitation, mock-up, dummy, reproduction, lookalike, likeness; More
noun
I.e. The hand painted kenner logo on the bag is a copy/ imitation / reproduction / lookalike of the original. Ergo, "fake".
tiefighterboy
Grand Master
edd_jedi said:
Fake ...repro..touched up..who really gives a ****. Something intended to deceive. FFS.
Dannywhiteley
Jedi Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2015
- Messages
- 556
Regardless of the final result, it's clear that the baggie market will be badly affected. All the guides and info available hasn't stopped the plethora of TT queries about any and every type of carded figure (along the lines of 'is this Toltoys 12 back a TT'?), and many collectors swear off Palitoy Jedi and non-logo'd ESB as a result and i fear it will hit the baggie market even harder as naturally there is even less knowledge out there among more general collectors.
I own a grand total of 7 baggies (and i'm planning on selling 3 of them soon in a graded Jedi multipack) so I'm not invested in this personally. I do feel for the guys who are heavily invested, and appreciate they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly. Some will suffer far more than most and the bad taste this will leave will take a long time to go away. The decision to go public with this must be borne out of some pretty hard evidence otherwise it wouldn't make sense to rock the proverbial boat of one of the more niche parts of the hobby so significantly. I think we need to wait for that evidence to come to light rather than get caught in a bun fight over finer details.
I own a grand total of 7 baggies (and i'm planning on selling 3 of them soon in a graded Jedi multipack) so I'm not invested in this personally. I do feel for the guys who are heavily invested, and appreciate they wouldn't have taken this decision lightly. Some will suffer far more than most and the bad taste this will leave will take a long time to go away. The decision to go public with this must be borne out of some pretty hard evidence otherwise it wouldn't make sense to rock the proverbial boat of one of the more niche parts of the hobby so significantly. I think we need to wait for that evidence to come to light rather than get caught in a bun fight over finer details.
