Toytoni - the next step

[jedisearcher]

It seems like the toytoni issue has come to a bit of a dead end and I've been wondering where things go next. Personally, I think that the only way to progress the matter now is to involve the authorities. To that end, I've drafted a document that I'm happy to share with people for them to use when reporting the issue.

The document is meant to be a statement of what's been uncovered so far through the great work of the community, and it links to various sources (the Arthur Brown list, Companies House information, stock sold on toytoni.com, ebay information, the values involved etc.).

The content can be used to report to your local police, local Trading Standards office, or on websites such as:

actionfraud.police.uk

Citizens Advice (who will involve Trading Standards) https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=citacomplainform&to=flare.fromforms

The authorities will need to decide whether the links between the various pieces of information merit further investigation - we can only report the issue and let them do their jobs, but obviously the more reports, the more chance of a result.

The document will only be available by email so please PM your email address if you want a copy. It won't be pasted directly into here for reasons that should be obvious.

I'd be grateful if people don't use this thread to discuss the accuracy of the contents of the document. It's been seen by other members of the community and I'm happy about its accuracy. If you don't feel comfortable reporting some of the content don't use it, or remove the parts you're not happy with. Obviously, you can add to it if you feel that something has been missed.

If you want to send it to someone who might not see it on here, please do so.

The same post will also be made on rebelscum.

 

[itfciain]

Apparently, according to a message that Andy K. sent to Grant, Tony is considering legal advise - so maybe there will be some movement from his end :lol:

 

[Richard_H]

Plenty of movement from his arse end I bet.

 

[palitoyjunky]

:lol: I bet :!:

 

[mumbo]

In my experience with organisations like the legal system, local council and benefit fraud there is a real lack of collaboration and inability to share important information whether that be internally or externally which results in missed opportunities to link crime, offenders and so on.

So sending off reports individually may not have the same impact as sending them together, like a petition.

Just food for thought.

 

[Grant_C]

Good question. but All reports are linked by database.

:wink:

 

[mumbo]

Good question. but All reports are linked by database.

:wink:

Agreed internally within the same organisation but if people are approaching different organisations then they potentially wont get linked and thus reducing the impact.

If they can be collated in one go and sent to maybe a few different organisations it may increase the desired affect?

 

[naughtyjedi]

Ive just been skim reading a lot of this toytoni stuff because I'm new, still naive in SW collecting (even more so now), and its a horror story. Not sure if I've got the gist, but am I right in assuming that this character is selling off carded SW figures which were factory unassembled, assembling them in a lower grade way and selling them as pure carded manufacture? And the AFA have passed them fit as the genuine article?

From my previous job working for a large multinational (i remember a similar case for shampoo bottles - yes.. shampoo). Where a smaller company COMPX had purchased a subsidiary company COMPZ lock stock and barrel. In that was a load of product for line trials that hadn't been destroyed such as bottles, labels, caps. There might well have been some shampoo I can't remember aside from it not being quite the same formulation (line trials at plants sometime use generic formulations for packaging testing). Because the company that no longer worked for the multinational had gone belly up COMPX destroyed everything, or so they thought. It happened that all this product should have been destroyed but was in fact taken, the bottles filled in, labelled by hand and sold at market stalls for less price. The company I worked for tried to stop this through legal channels but failed because the market trader said he'd bought the goods legitimately some years earlier. Basically it would have cost a lot of money to prove these items weren't the genuine article and that they had been filled and assembled elsewhere. The supply wasn't endless so it got left there. The multinational issued some local adverts about counterfeit goods but lets face it, if a bottle of shampoo costs £3.50 and you get it from the market for £1, no ones going to say much unless your eyes fall out.

As for toytoni I can't, looking at his website, see much way in the way he has implicated himself into anything criminal - aside from being a totally unreliable seller ripping people off with potentially misrepresented goods. But theres very little on his site that says anything else but 'vintage' and some pictures. If he's using genuine articles and saying that, then theres fraud, but if he's just posting images and technically all the parts could be considered 'vintage' I don't know how people can stop him. Aside from stop buying from him. or register toytoni.co.uk and inform people of the actions.

I really feel for anyone who has been ripped off completely, I'd be furious and would probably go round his house and address him face to face. I don't buy carded figures, but this sort of thing puts me off..

I found this and its worth reposting
http://antoniemchowicz.wordpress.com/2013/12/28/antoni-emchowicz-aka-toytoni-zoomertoys-and-marsking-on-ebay/

https://id.theguardian.com/profile/id/10364878/public
(gives a profile of the person...)

further looking makes it sicker that he's enjoying a type of lifestyle thanks to him 'defrauding' star wars collectors.
end of semi informed rant.

 

[jedisearcher]

I've had a response from one of the organisations that I contacted with details of the TT issue.

They passed me a load of very valuable information about the legal situation, but more importantly at this point they advised:

Individual complaints do not necessarily lead to immediate enforcement action as, sometimes, numerous complaints are needed before effective action can take place.

That's pretty clear to me. We need numbers complaining and we know we have them if people get on with it and do it.

I've sent some documents to the people who've already requested them, so please get in touch and get involved.

You're letting him win without a fight if you do nothing.

Chris

 

[Grant_C]

Chris,

I salute all your selfless hard work on this. It takes some serious guts to stand up and be counted.

I take great comfort that you and a few others are are willing to defend this hobby that we all love, and do what's right and logical.

It will send a message that there is community and friendship in this hobby and will send a message to other unscrupulous individuals, who seem to be multiplying by the month, that ripping off people is unacceptable and will not be tolerated.

Rock on.

 

[Grant_C]

Gentleman- you don't have to disclose your name and details.

If you are convinced of probable wrong doing. This is an opportunity to get the clarity you have been seeking in your many posts on that thread.

Best wishes- it takes balls.

 

[jedisearcher]

Thanks Grant.

People need to be aware the document simply sets out the facts in the order they've happened (it's really just pulling together the contents of the big thread) and is informative and simple enough that someone with no understanding of the issue and collecting Star Wars figures in general will be able to see what's been going on.

Logging this issue isn't like walking into a Police Station and claiming that a crime has been committed. We can't do that, no proof.

What it does do is make the authorities be aware of the issue. They and only they can make the call as to whether they investigate further. Only they can get to the bottom of things.

 

[plantman]

I'm surprised this thread hasn't taken off yet, if i was holding some of this fake **** i would be filling that form in, or filling his face in...

 

[finestcomics]

Just checking-in on this thread as Chris' suggestion might well be worth pursuing if you're seeking some restitution from Toni.

 

[finestcomics]

Good question. but All reports are linked by database.

:wink:

Agreed internally within the same organisation but if people are approaching different organisations then they potentially wont get linked and thus reducing the impact.

If they can be collated in one go and sent to maybe a few different organisations it may increase the desired affect?

The UK Citizens Advice sounds a lot like the way the Federal Trade Commission pursues fraud. They request individual complainants submit their information/details, and when they see a pattern of complainants, they act. I imagine a lot of this has to do with budget and resources. Speaking to Chris' suggestion, it will only benefit us all if people submit their complaints to the UK Citizens Advice. I would suggest the same with the FTC at some point. Flooding these organizations with complaints is the only way to get them to notice there is a problem.

 

[Jez]

It doesn't appear that steps are really being taken.
Everyone who has been affected needs to report this to the police.
A crime has taken place. That crime needs to be answered. There will be some folk who have been seriously affected. If it were me, i'd be taking some sort of action; be it direct or indirect.

Otherwise our community will give the impression that it's full of pussies, pussies who are ok with getting f##ked.

 

[ChrisG]

One huge problem I see in all of this is that these pieces have traded hands many times, internationally, making the current owners far removed from the original source. And the highest price paid is at the end of that line so the amount Toni would be responsible for, at best, is the original selling price.

UK citizens who bought directly from Toni have the best chance, if there is one, but others would seem to be far less likely to see any type of justice because they are so many steps down the chain.

It really sucks.

-chris

 

[plantman]

its not about the money he has made, its the crime he has committed, massive fraud, copyright infringement, tax avoidance ect, he would be investigated thoroughly, all his bank details going back years would show what what made and if he couldn't account for it he would get hit big time.

but he wil have ditched all of his evidence by now, although there is his website, emails with buyers and the wholescale star wars community to prove it.

tbh ive lost hope anyone will do anything at all.

 

[itfciain]

One huge problem I see in all of this is that these pieces have traded hands many times, internationally, making the current owners far removed from the original source. And the highest price paid is at the end of that line so the amount Toni would be responsible for, at best, is the original selling price.

UK citizens who bought directly from Toni have the best chance, if there is one, but others would seem to be far less likely to see any type of justice because they are so many steps down the chain.

It really sucks.

-chris

I think this sums up the problem - although there are loads of us out there with TOCs - we have little direct recourse against Tony unless we purchased them directly from him. Even proving that they originated from him is going to be hard unless the sellers (and the person who sold it to them etc) kept a paper trail

I agree it is frustrating as it does look like he will get away with this scott free - but I am not sure what anyone can do unless they purchased a large amount from Tony directly and have the stomach (and cash) for a fight