Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[michael plum]

Are you serious?

Toni is a regular at Sandown. He doesn't stand but he does enter as an early buyer, regular as clockwork. He may not have much time to search for more loose figures, though.

What's this going to do to prices? The wretched home-sealed pieces must have some sort of value, but if everyone starts baling out what percentage can we expect to recoup?
And what about the additional drop in prices caused by the loss of confidence? Add to that the collectors who leave in disgust and you have the biggest setback in toy collecting that I can ever recall.

Seriously, can anyone tell me of a greater blow to the hobby?

 

[jedisearcher]

I'm pretty sure Toni will be staying away this time :lol:

 

[finestcomics]

Are you serious?

Toni is a regular at Sandown. He doesn't stand but he does enter as an early buyer, regular as clockwork. He may not have much time to search for more loose figures, though.

What's this going to do to prices? The wretched home-sealed pieces must have some sort of value, but if everyone starts baling out what percentage can we expect to recoup?
And what about the additional drop in prices caused by the loss of confidence? Add to that the collectors who leave in disgust and you have the biggest setback in toy collecting that I can ever recall.

Seriously, can anyone tell me of a greater blow to the hobby?

These are all very valid concerns. Having experienced similar setbacks in the vintage comic hobby, with the most recent scandal starting in March of 2013 and running through to the summer, there really is no clean cut solution. What results is a debasing of items bearing even the slightest resemblance to a tainted sample. With all the tells Jason has uncovered, even one or two things off about an MOC (even though it might have been produced that way) will arouse suspicion.

What I can also tell you, as far as how things usually play out, is that these MOC's will be worth nothing. Any unused cardbacks will be worth nothing (they are rejects, and connected to a massive scandal). The blisters - maybe Toni could use them as cups to drink gutter water, which is where he needs to end up, if he isn't strung by the nuts and used as shark chum first.

Certification companies (AFA/UKG) will lead the charge with his banning, and suspension of grading these items, which in essence will produce a non-existent demand for people to own existing certified examples, and even less interest in getting a qualified grade.

The other travesty is the sellers out there who are trying to dump this stuff on the market. Who are seemingly following the lead of the person who revealed all this, and who himself likely dumped all this stuff over the years, and never had the decency to even notify the people he sold this garbage to that they're tainted.

Say what you think, but only if you believe what you are saying. And follow-up with the behavour to the espoused belief. If you say one thing and practice the exact opposite in this situation, you're a scumbag. Past, present, or future. I don't see it any other way.

The community's only reprieve is to make sure these scumbags are outed every time, no matter how often they change their online aliases, and found, outed and shamed wherever they're next scams are perpetrated. my2cents

 

[finestcomics]

I'm pretty sure Toni will be staying away this time :lol:

Exactly what a hobby pariah should be doing. Staying away and hiding.

And looking over his shoulders. For the rest of his life.

 

[mr_palitoy]

Another couple of threads about miscards:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t814355/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1013235-7/

Card tear behind the bubble?

Jason

That tear is actually the remains of the punch fallen down during the sealing process. Done on a machine at the factory and not handmade.
I think that gives a clean bill of health to the other Chewbacca/Vader miscards.

cheers Jason

 

[jay4]

Another couple of threads about miscards:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t814355/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1013235-7/

Card tear behind the bubble?

Jason

That tear is actually the remains of the punch fallen down during the sealing process. Done on a machine at the factory and not handmade.
I think that gives a clean bill of health to the other Chewbacca/Vader miscards.

cheers Jason

unless of course it fell down behind the bubble at tonis d,aubingy factory in brighton :?:

 

[mr_palitoy]

Another couple of threads about miscards:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t814355/

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1013235-7/

Card tear behind the bubble?

Jason

That tear is actually the remains of the punch fallen down during the sealing process. Done on a machine at the factory and not handmade.
I think that gives a clean bill of health to the other Chewbacca/Vader miscards.

cheers Jason

unless of course it fell down behind the bubble at tonis d,aubingy factory in brighton :?:

Cant see how given they are hand assembled.

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

This regular 65d darth vader blister doesnt look great either:-

http://forum.rebelscum.com/t1087769/

Jason

The seal on this wrong way round vader looks dodgy too:-

Jason

 

[Grant_C]

Yeah- but if you were committing fraud, it would be unwise to draw attention to yourself by putting figures in backwards or making miscards. :?

 

[mr_palitoy]

Shop sold examples are sealed all the way round.

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

Yeah- but if you were committing fraud, it would be unwise to draw attention to yourself by putting figures in backwards or making miscards. :?

That is very true.

Jason

 

[mr_palitoy]

I think the 65d vader with the wide bubble is fine too. It matches the imprint made on a shop sold cardback and has unsealed
areas where the double stems would be. The card I have with iron marks has an imprint which a little narrower than that, so using
a bubble that has not been seen on a MOC vader.

so for 65d palitoy vader there are 3 valid bubble types:-

1) long narrow rectangular with square corners - the most common
2) tri logo style - less common
3) wide rectangular - least common

And the cardback I have was a failed attempt at sticking on a bubble which has not been seen in the wild

Have removed Vader from my guide. (again)



cheers Jason

 

[jay4]

Jason[/quote]

That tear is actually the remains of the punch fallen down during the sealing process. Done on a machine at the factory and not handmade.
I think that gives a clean bill of health to the other Chewbacca/Vader miscards.

cheers Jason[/quote]

unless of course it fell down behind the bubble at tonis d,aubingy factory in brighton :?:[/quote]

Cant see how given they are hand assembled.

Jason[/quote]



what you know for fact he isnt / wasnt using a machine at some point ? it would certainly go some way to explaining why for the most part some TT moc are extremely well done

 

[jedisearcher]

I know this might seem a bit backwards, but I actually think miscards would have been exactly the way to sell things in the very early days.

Remember, in the late 80's everyone had a Vader, it wasn't valuable at all. But, miscards like the Hothtroopers, backwards Vader might have been someone's idea of good way to make money, whereas a proper MOC might have made nothing.

There is a thread on RS showing the old auctions from that collectable magazine (can't remember the name, but way before ebay), and iirc there were miscards advertised regularly for decent money, along with things like the rarer POTF stuff.

I also don't think sealing them at that time wouldn't have even been considering that it was fraud in any way. JJ selling them for peanuts tells us that.

 

[jasdev999]

As a newbie collector with serious money "invested" in MOCs I am not buying ANY palitoys period. I know it sounds alarmist and very misinformed,considering I have spent hours going through these forums since December and just love all the great work done. ..MrPalitoy particularly.... and can now spot a ToniFake....still it has left a very very bad taste in my mouth. I hope there is no Toni counterpart in North America running a sweatshop at home with Kenners

 

[jay4]

As a newbie collector with serious money "invested" in MOCs I am not buying ANY palitoys period. I know it sounds alarmist and very misinformed,considering I have spent hours going through these forums since December and just love all the great work done. ..MrPalitoy particularly.... and can now spot a ToniFake....still it has left a very very bad taste in my mouth. I hope there is no Toni counterpart in North America running a sweatshop at home with Kenners

its just a case of making sure you dont buy lovely crisp cards with super clean bubbles on gm or jedi cards those are the only ones that are hard to tell if TT or not,
you should not let it stop you buying palitoy just buy what you can clearly see is real / aged / shop bought / worn and yellowed etc :wink: TT is not stopping me ive bought 3 jedi palitoy cards the last month with full confidence they are real

 

[jasdev999]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

 

[Jez]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Agreed, i try to stay away from cracked bubbles, but i totally agree with this sentiment

 

[finestcomics]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Generally speaking, yes. But you have to also wise-up to the scammers that artificially age items. It would blow your mind what I've seen people do over the years - everything from antiquities to paper ephemera. The rule that if something looks too good, it probably is, has been turned on it's head as a ploy to fool people into believing deliberately worn replicas/reproductions are hundreds of years old, when the aren't even 20 or 30 years old. In the Star Wars hobby, I've seen people cut down recards to appear as though they were original (there's a thread out there for a set of 12 Backs where this was done). People thought, yeah, I could see some poor sap's parents cutting the cards to cram them into a box or case. The reality is the seller was using this as an angle to hide the tells of the recard (punch tab location, typeset used on "Ages..." text, and in more crude cuts, that include the character typeset) to bait someone into believing they were original, and they weren't. We were joking that some ugrader was going to get their just desserts.

 

[jay4]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Agreed, i try to stay away from cracked bubbles, but i totally agree with this sentiment

yeah i dont go near any type of bubble cracks, splits or holes its the one thing i dont and cant do . bit of yellowing few dents, light crush etc are no biggie to me, as long as the wee man is fully sealed

 

[jay4]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Generally speaking, yes. But you have to also wise-up to the scammers that artificially age items. It would blow your mind what I've seen people do over the years - everything from antiquities to paper ephemera. The rule that if something looks too good, it probably is, has been turned on it's head as a ploy to fool people into believing deliberately worn replicas/reproductions are hundreds of years old, when the aren't even 20 or 30 years old. In the Star Wars hobby, I've seen people cut down recards to appear as though they were original (there's a thread out there for a set of 12 Backs where this was done). People thought, yeah, I could see some poor sap's parents cutting the cards to cram them into a box or case. The reality is the seller was using this as an angle to hide the tells of the recard (punch tab location, typeset used on "Ages..." text, and in more crude cuts, that include the character typeset) to bait someone into believing they were original, and they weren't. We were joking that some ugrader was going to get their just desserts.

yeah anything can be done! but as far as im aware theres no way to age or even slitely yellow tinge or mist up a bubble ? so thats good , just dont go near crystal clear bubbles on said cards ,you could try & age a TT card all you like by even battering and crushing the bubble and card but that bubble will still remain unusually clear and hopefully look out of place on an intentionally aged card giving it away in some cases

 

[_Lee_]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

 

[finestcomics]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Generally speaking, yes. But you have to also wise-up to the scammers that artificially age items. It would blow your mind what I've seen people do over the years - everything from antiquities to paper ephemera. The rule that if something looks too good, it probably is, has been turned on it's head as a ploy to fool people into believing deliberately worn replicas/reproductions are hundreds of years old, when the aren't even 20 or 30 years old. In the Star Wars hobby, I've seen people cut down recards to appear as though they were original (there's a thread out there for a set of 12 Backs where this was done). People thought, yeah, I could see some poor sap's parents cutting the cards to cram them into a box or case. The reality is the seller was using this as an angle to hide the tells of the recard (punch tab location, typeset used on "Ages..." text, and in more crude cuts, that include the character typeset) to bait someone into believing they were original, and they weren't. We were joking that some ugrader was going to get their just desserts.

yeah anything can be done! but as far as im aware theres no way to age or even slitely yellow tinge or mist up a bubble ?

Try putting a clear MOC, AFA/UKG case (even archival) under neon light. You'd be amazed at how quickly this form of lighting causes the plastic or acrylic to yellow.

 

[finestcomics]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

I love price tags myself. I really try to dissuade people from removing them from MOC's because it's essentially stripping away the provenance.

But I really despise the practice of using stickers to hide damage or defects. There's a recent thread on RS about a seller on eBay who was outed for doing this.

Yet another example of how human greed is spoiling collecting preferences for people like myself who like stickers on MOC's, but because of all the price sticker shenanigans, it makes people suspicious that the sticker is there to hide a defect.

Add the new layer of complication with Tonigate and you'll see how this eventually will rear an uglier play with people using price stickers as a way claim they are shop owned and not from Toni.

 

[spoons]

this is an odd one - mint card, with a first issue Han Solo (hex belt buckle) but yellowed bubble.

Toni with yellowing would kind of prove the neon light thought above

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141185909930&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

 

[lee gray]

years ago when i got a carded fett from toni that was not in perfect condition as had a corner crease, I have OCD unfortunately and cant stand creases even if i have a slight corner fold in a page on a book, i will cut the corner so there is no fold.

This is what i did to the fett card, i cut it in a nice curverd shape for my viewing pleasure only so the card had no corner crease, just looked lop sided lol
as someone else mentioned his fett cards dont have corner curves but pointy edges which is strange.

 

[finestcomics]

this is an odd one - mint card, with a first issue Han Solo (hex belt buckle) but yellowed bubble.

Toni with yellowing would kind of prove the neon light thought above

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=141185909930&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:GB:3160

See that card freaks me out. If you look at the back of the card (last photo in the listing) you can see an outline of the blister from ink loss. This is different from the kind of indentation of "lifting" from a seal machine, which would curve/bend an outline on the outermost edge of the blister, but wouldn't produce ink loss.

This doesn't appear to be the same kind of defect you would see on a factory card, but rather, what I see is something typical of overexposing the card to heat and the ink loss resulting from peeling away the release sheet. While release sheets are meant to peel away without bonding, they are meant to perform optimally under the right temperature and exposure time. Definitely sticks out as something suspect, but that's just based on anecdotal evidence from seeing how release sheets behave when it gets into contact with ink under sustained heat with pressure (i.e. weight).

 

[jasdev999]

Well said Jay4.

One of the really positive things to come out of this debacle is a new found love of creases, dents, price stickers, lovely bubble yellowing, just beautiful signs of age. Wonder why SW collectors pay a premium for a mint! The whole Toni scam is based on MINT. Collectors want to believe and so do the graders that the figure can be this factor fresh.

I buy old guitars and amps and would stay away if offered factory fresh! In fact people pay premium for Les Paul's/Fender amps with those lovely signs of age.

Excellent post.I myself prefer stuff that is aged,and tells a story.Price tags are something i love.

Also,dont tell me you would turn down a brand new PRS Dragon

No i really do not go for mint guitars (even a PRS Dragon!!...but I do take care of my mint guitars)...this is my favorite guitar of all time as it has its story written all over it. It belonged to Rory Gallagher (one of the most hardworking guitarists ever).
http://www.fender.com/news/guitar-world-features-rory-gallagher/
In fact there is a whole industry now where mint guitars are taken and banged around by guitar techs to make them look "roadworn"

Coming back to MOCs... is whitegloves2 another ebay account for Toni? It is full of Trilogo goodies but a lot of suspect palitoys.

Price stickers also age in a nice way ...don't they? I am sure it would be difficult to age the sticker, the card, the bubble at the same time and have them in some sort of a sync...but I guess if someone is making that much of an effort....what do you say...

Really amazed at Lee cutting out the edge of the creased card to have a nice rounded edge.

 

[jedisearcher]

Really amazed at Lee cutting out the edge of the creased card to have a nice rounded edge.

I had to rub my eyes at that one, OCD indeed :shock:

whitegloves has been peddling that **** for weeks now, definitely some TT stuff in there, but I figured it was just someone offloading, rather than toni himself. Could be completely wrong tho :lol:

 

[_Lee_]

I know who white gloves is,but for the life of me i cant remember the name.I dont think its TT.He is probably shark spotting using the leftover evidence aa chumming bait.Jees,some Shark somewhere may be swimming around with some mouldy old cardbacks in his gut....