Resealed figure discovery debate - G.Kurtz Palitoy VC Jawa.

[Bramistuta25]

I have a GM PD that I got from Toni very recently and I have made my own mind up.

I just think that any which way you work it, Toni owes it to himself and the parts of the community who have bought in good faith to give a full account of the exact history of his pieces. A lot of people have bought a lots of merchandise and if he has nothing to hide then he should come forward and explain.

As I said before, if it were me I would be defending myself to the hilt. I'm all for innocent until proven guilty, but as Michael says we all be making our minds up on assumptions for now, but I do believe that sooner rather than later the truth will come out!

Bram

 

[PIGCITY]

Wasn't this Toy Toni bloke the one who sells MOC in Snoopers Paradise Brighton???

If so I'll nip down first thing when I get to work and see what's on sale and if anything's been removed recently, if it is the same guy I'll take the big work camera for some snaps.,.

 

[Dublinjeff]

Purely enquiring as a matter of interest. Has Toni replied to anyone in person as opposed to responding again to this thread?

I wouldn't be to pushed if he avoided this thread, although it would appear that this has done him no favours. However, if he is ignoring past customers enquiries it would be a bit worrying?

 

[Richard_H]

Yes Duncan that's the one. It's good to see that some very respected collectors have looked at these in great detail. I'm sure they'll present their findings in due course.
However, in some if the cards presented today you can clearly see iron marks where heat has been applied on the bubble

 

[mrgobby]

i am so glad i traded mine for loose figures..i bought a chewbacca off him earlier this year,and if i'd been left with 7 or 8 carded fakes (that came indirectly from toni) i wouldn't be happy!! i've only been collecting for a year but this clusterfuck of a mess makes you think is it worth it?

 

[plantman]

The fact that all this hearsay is accusing him of being a huge fraudster its essential he speaks out. We are not just talking a card touch-up here, we are taking massive copyright fraud and hundreds of thousands of pounds obtained by deception, collectors all over have spent a fortune buying these and they deserve the courtesy of Toni fighting his corner.

the only reason you wouldn't is if you were planning your escape, i had a pint with a friend who has a lot invested in these moc, and he wants his money back, if he decides to visit Toni i wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

Because there is SO many co-incidences here, and the fact that Toni's only movement is to make his ebay sales private suggests something is up.

 

[spoons]

Because there is SO many co-incidences here, and the fact that Toni's only movement is to make his ebay sales private suggests something is up.

Almost like an admission of guilt

 

[Lafos]

I think as with any court guilt needs to be proved beyond reasonable doubt based on the evidence provided, and defence presented by the accused. Based on the evidence presented for and against and based on Toni's defence of himself if you were a jury member, and this was a court case how would you find?

Adam

Right now we're in the judicial inquiry. And based on the evidence TT would be accused. :roll:

 

[Grant_C]

Ok- it's been a long, long day with Mr Joiner and the Farthest From.

There will be lots of information on its way, but please be patient. I'm exhausted and need to sleep.

I will say that is was great to meet Jason Joiner and spend a few hours with him.

He was incredabley open and honest. There are examples shown that are obviously fakes.

We need to verify a few things before moving forward.

My feeling is that the consensus at the event doesn't look good for certain cards.

Other accusations against Jason Joiner are also moving forward.

Exhausted.

 

[Grant_C]

Don't have a dog in this fight.

Just want to find out the truth.

Have to call a witness to a transaction tomorrow to verify where some of today's MOCs.

Last post was a bit cryptic.

 

[escapist]

Can you do it in haiku form next time Bram?

 

[bobbybobs]

Hi guys,

I've been following this issue both here and on RS. Firstly, fantastic work by some members of this board to build up this case. While I do my best to base all of my conclusions on evidence, the circumstantial evidence in this situation is overwhelming, coupled with Tony's deafening silence. I am though curious why JJ has only leaked this information right now? His sidestepping of accusations of his own guilt were incredibly patronising to all of us.

I haven't thought this out so well yet but just floating the idea to see what others think. I think it might be a good idea to collate some data about what MOCs have been confirmed to have been purchased from Tony. We could at least start with users of this forum and others. While statistics (type of cardbacks/bubbles/figures/seals, condition and purchase date etc) will not be exhaustive, they should serve as a sufficiently representative sample by which to draw some conclusions. It could all be done pretty easily in excel.

While the authorities may not take SW collecting seriously (does anyone other than us?), I'm sure the fraud squad or their equivalent would be interested if the cost of Tony's fraud ran up to hundreds of thousands of pounds. Who knows, if Tony is committing fraud against us, maybe he is also the type of person to also avoid tax on his sales. I'm sure the UK government would be interested in that.

Although I have never bought from Tony, I think I have at least one or two of his MOCs. I was pretty shocked to see how crisp one of the MOCs was for a 30 year old toy.

My instinct is that Tony is guilty but there may be some innocent reason out there that makes this looks more suspicious than it is. Then again, we won't know until Tony speaks up....

Christian

 

[mr_palitoy]

Great show at FF4 this weekend meeting fellow collectors.

Great work guys, looking at the cards while we've been at FF4.

Have just read what I missed on this thread.

Very telling that Toni has not responded about the 2nd ebay account, it has chnaged name 30 times and he has just tried to hide its purchasing history.

Another smoking gun from Mattias linked the unused cards and Toni MOCs using the printing error on C3P0 Removeable limbs. Great work!

Lots of Tonis MOCs were looked at FF4. Jason Joiner bought a box full of very early Tonis. Looking at them all in conjunction with mine bought a few years ago,
it's a history of forging. His early attempts at sealing bubbles are laughable on some of the earliest cards, they then get better but the glue is wrong so looks
different. He then realises this and changes glue so it is a better match to the real thing.

Some of his reseals are on factory error unused cards, like the one Mattias found. There is a ROTJ Boba Fett with a massive colour shift printing error on it which
would have failed QC and been rejected and left in a corner of the factory until it closed.

There is a card where the bubble fell off first attempt and he tried again. The bubble line moved so you can see the line of the original.

There are bubbles with dirt inside them.

Scratched cards behind the bubble.

Glue which is completely wonky and uneven.

Card with not enough heat applied so the bubble fell off.

Card with too much heat applied so the bubble has warped in places.

etc etc

Closeup up photos of these cards have been taken showing all of the above and will no doubt be posted up here shortly.

Thats all for now!

I got pics on Sat/Sun and will get an album up for those who missed the event, and the biggest trilogo find for years (That should get Joe going!)

cheers Jason

 

[Bramistuta25]

Can you do it in haiku form next time Bram?

I've just tried to be clever and figure out what Haiku is... Wikipedia has it, but I'm confused.

I can write it in a poem if you want??

 

[Grant_C]

Jason- we saw cards today from JJ who says they are from Toytoni.

We only has his word.

I will contact a friend tomorrow to clarify the transaction.

While it does look likely, this is someone's word and not 100% proof.

 

[JuniorChubb]

What an interesting day FF4 was...

IMO all the ramblings of this thread have been blown away by getting your hands and eyes on the 'evidence'.

If the cards really are from Toni his reputation is in bits (lets see if he can re-assemble that).

 

[mr_palitoy]

Jason- we saw cards today from JJ who says they are from Toytoni.

We only has his word.

I will contact a friend tomorrow to clarify the transaction.

While it does look likely, this is someone's word and not 100% proof.

This is true. Maybe we should all be posting our sales email correspondences with Toni to back up claims we have bought stuff from Toni.

JJ keeps his receipts. Maybe he has some for them?



Jason

 

[Caswellbot]

Hi guys, obviously a lot of folk have been down at the FF4 event today but it seems this thread has been romping on. Today was a busy day at Fordingbridge. It was great to meet up with a lot of collectors and talk all things vintage. Jason Joiner brought along some very interesting carded figures which he says were bought by a collector in Coventry who bought them from Toytoni at a toy fair at Donnington Park. Grant (Maulster) may be able to verify this in time as he is in contact with someone who knows the person who alledgedly bought these from Toni. Hopefully he can confirm whether or not what Jason is saying is verifiable.

For now at least, they are proof that someone at some point was definitely trying to seal these cards with limited success. A number of methods have been used of varying qualities. I will try to highlight a few of these methods. There were 17 cards in total and I took photos of nearly all of them. There was also an ESB GM 45 Back Hammerhead which had come clean off the card leaving a bubble (with spray adhesive on it) and a virtually mint cardback which I cant believe I missed photographing although this was 45 min photograph session! I would like to add that of the 17 cards we looked at about 4 looked like they might be ok. The rest were either like frankenstein experiments or near forgeries of the real seal.

Spray Mount - Spray Adhesive Method? ESB Leia General Mills 45 back (Blue Blaster?) Notice the mottled texture under the seal of the bubble indicating the use of a spray adhesive. The back of the card is perfectly flat. It doesnt look like any pressure/ machine was used to bond the bubble to the card.

037 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

038 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

039 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

040 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

041 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

042 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

043 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Iron Method? Palitoy ROTJ Pale Blue Fett - Palitoy 65 Back - (Printing alignment error on card.) Note the dragging scuffs of the card which move away from the bubble in an upwards diagonal movement. There is also a triangle shaped indent in between the twin stem of the bubble which gave birth to the idea that this may have been done with a normal household iron. (Diagnosis courtesy of Lee Bullock) The puckering around the bubble also suggests uneven heating.

066 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

067 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

068 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

069 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

071 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Also Iron Method? Hoth Trooper Palitoy 65 Back - same scuff marks as the Fett. Malheated bubble. Also check the area around the hanger tab where it looks like there is an indent of another hanger tab where another card was resting on top. V shaped imprint at stem.

077 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

078 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

079 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

080 by Caswell2009, on Flickr


Brush on Adhesive Method? Boba Fett Pale Blue - ROTJ 65 Palitoy Back - The glue looks different on this. It is not speckled/ mottled like the leia and instead looks like it may have been applied with a brush? Its a bit of a messy job as there are traces of glue residue smeared around the cardback. Glue couldnt be used to stick the twin stem area at the bottom so again it looks like an iron was used.

090 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

091 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

093 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

094 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

095 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Dare I say it, this one looked ok? 2-1-B Metallic Version GM 45 Back. Better cleaner seal which looked crystal clear. The black underneath the card actually looked black. There is also evidence of pressure being applied to the back of the card to seal the card and bubble.

072 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

073 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

074 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

076 by Caswell2009, on Flickr

Please click on any of the photos to enlarge and see the other photos of all the cards and to see the photos from what was a very enjoyable day in Fordingbridge. Thanks David for organising it!

 

[_Lee_]

I will say one thing-at least Jason Joiner had the bollocks to front up to people about this,which is a lot more than someone else has done :evil:

Fairpay to him for that.

Such a sad time for collecting.I know a few friends have been affected by this,and they are not happy as you an guess.I dont think we need anymore proof-he has destroyed a huge part of this hobby with his actions.

 

[escapist]

Can you do it in haiku form next time Bram?

I've just tried to be clever and figure out what Haiku is... Wikipedia has it, but I'm confused.

I can write it in a poem if you want??

Ha fail on my part. Was meant for Maulster! How embarrassing.

*that was a **** attempt at Haiku* Back to the real ****.....